Trying to understand why

[Peaches]

And thats exactly what happened to me
hense i was driven out of the the game and off this board
the core group of mini ' brad vanguards' that are now inhabiting hz again trying to get their ' vision' of hz pounded into others is unreal

Wrong, you LET them drive you away. ;(

[Fratricide]

<Cheers for himself> Yay... I'm a Scrub... Well if you look at it as you have to have the most Leet gear and items... have to have a valkor set.... and whatever else you think is the group of Winning essentials... I will probably never have that stuff.. but Who cares... Would it be nice to have them.. sure.. but I'm not worried about it because I play the game for the community more then the Items the game presents.

[Peaches]

<Cheers for himself> Yay... I'm a Scrub... Well if you look at it as you have to have the most Leet gear and items... have to have a valkor set.... and whatever else you think is the group of Winning essentials... I will probably never have that stuff.. but Who cares... Would it be nice to have them.. sure.. but I'm not worried about it because I play the game for the community more then the Items the game presents.

here here! Well said and I agree a thousand fold!

[Dhalin]

I think the want for teched gear mostly stems from the crafting side.

Sadly, if you do not have teched gear T2+, it becomes difficult to level your craft. You either have to seek out player-made machines, or have someone help you gather, otherwise it becomes very tedious IMO. Now, maybe with Adventuring, you could still do decently fighting slightly weaker mobs to make up for the lack of techs on your gear, but crafting... sometimes, you Need that teched gear to get an extra Efficiency... say, when you first get 3:1 vs 4:1 ... it makes a very large difference in your leveling speed.

So, later on, I could understand the sheer want and desire for the higher crafting techs on crafting gear...its not about "wanting to be leet and having the best items" its about "trying to make this at least somewhat bearable" ... and the sheer grind, and amount of experience points, and the number of items you have to make to get those crafting levels is partly at fault for this.

[JDexter]

I'm still not getting it, is it an actual exploit or is it just someone hogging spawns?

[KillerGoon]

Keeping the two separate is the problem most have Dex.

[Lupine73]

Been reading through this thread again and there's something else I'd like to bring to it, from another point-of-view.

This whole "playing to win" thing... with the "scrubs" being the ones who are held back by their own home-grown set of "rules" and so forth... I think the context the article puts that in is perfectly reasonable.. It's a competitive game. The idea is for one person to beat the other. As in PvP MMOs. As in FPS Deathmatch and so forth. The idea is "to win"

But where, exactly, does the idea of "playing to win" fit into a MMO like Horizons or other PvE type MMOs where there is no pre-defined "reward" programmed into the game for being able to snag that boss creature every time, while "lesser players" can't? What meaningful reward comes from being able to snatch a mob from in front of another player over and over again? Bragging rights? Self-edification of being "the better player"?

If the so-called "scrub" needs to tag that boss for a quest, for example, and someone else is managing to tag it every time because they've become more efficient at it through repetition, and perhaps are a more skilled player, is that a sign of "playing to win" or just being plain greedy? I say the latter. Isn't the "competitive player", in that context, playing by his own home-grown set of "rules" in that case? It's only "competitive" because the person farming the mob has decided to make it that way. The mob re-spawns over and over because numerous people will have to kill it to complete a given quest. Doesn't it seem a bit arrogant and unrealistic to say "Well then the "scrub" should go off and learn to play better so they can have a chance at "winning the mob"? They should go away, spend some indefinite amount of time so they can come back, compete with this guy and "have a chance to win" a pull for a boss mob they need to complete a single quest - all because the guy can't accept passing up on one kill? That seems extremely selfish and unreasonable to me.

What's wrong with the "competitive" one recognizing that this guy needs the boss and either A: letting them have a go at it; so they only kill the thing 19 times instead of 20. Or, B: inviting them to group with them so the "competitive" guy gets the kill and helps the "scrub" get his quest completed. That's a win-win situation in my eyes and it's what I personally do in such a game as Horizons.

Now, in a MMO like Lineage 2 or other PvP games where it *is* designed around competition - different story. Preventing someone from getting that boss creature might well be holding them back from obtaining some new gear or making progress that might make them a serious threat to you somewhere down the line. Okay, in that case, be competitive... because there is something to be "won" there - if not at that moment, certainly at some point in the future.

But in a game like Horizons, hoarding an entire area simply because you can? I have a really hard time seeing the whole "scrub" thing being at all relevant to that.

[Dhalin]

Hogging Spawns....

It is an exploit IF:

1). A cheating program was used (IE, a bot)
2). A Game flaw was used (IE, logging out and logging back in to become invisible to mobs)

It is Not an exploit if there were no cheating programs or flaws used to do it .Simply being there, and legitimately winning claim/looting rights on the said mobs repeatedly does not make you an exploiter, or a cheater.

[Aamer Khan]

JDexter...

I stood and watched a player with at least 10 elite blights and asorted veteran ones stand in one spot and not only not die, but drag mobs to him from well beyond the reach of my longshot. I could see NO other players close to him nor did I even see his health fall all that often.


He was not hogging the spawn because I could easily still get the mobs I wanted, and like I said it didn't hurt me personally in any way.

BUT... you have to admit, that if any player can handle all that debuffing and damage and do it for well over an hour and NOT be exploiting is some manner is just silly. Invis healers or hacked client I have no clue.

What I still don't get is what's the point? Or even if there IS a point.

Horizons is doing better under new management, and thats great. However, it still has a small player base and no working economy.

I guess I cannot understand why anyone would bother to cheat here. What "advantage" does it give?

[velveeta]

i am afraid i don't understand any of this.....i know of no exploiters or peeps who are trying to bend the rules or abuse other players for advantage on blight.......

and anyone who did these things would find themselves without friends or assistance on blight......

so what is the difference between blight and your shard?
if you know who is doing these things, why not just 'banish' them or whatever it is the amish do when punishing a member of the community.
if no self-respecting player has anything to do with the alleged exploiter, they will be forced to fend for themself or find other exploiters and convince them to help. either way, its not your problem anymore, right?

[Fratricide]

I stood and watched a player with at least 10 elite blights and asorted veteran ones stand in one spot and not only not die, but drag mobs to him from well beyond the reach of my longshot. I could see NO other players close to him nor did I even see his health fall all that often.

He was not hogging the spawn because I could easily still get the mobs I wanted, and like I said it didn't hurt me personally in any way.

BUT... you have to admit, that if any player can handle all that debuffing and damage and do it for well over an hour and NOT be exploiting is some manner is just silly. Invis healers or hacked client I have no clue.

I saw someone doing something similar out on Ice Island as a lvl ~65 spiritist.. with a rank of like 150 or sommat.. I was gonna bust a heal or two their way as they had like 15 mobs on them at the time.. but their health was no where near looking like it was hurting... and I don't remember the name off hand... It would be nice to know what skill set they had.. or special abilities they were using to run through mobs like that with little to no effort...

Anyway.. I have settled a long time ago to recognize that I am but a mere scrub in this game, or any online game, as I believe more in fair play and community then I do trying to win the game and ruin the game for other folks that are trying to be the best they want to be.

[Vahrokh]

And thats exactly what happened to me
hense i was driven out of the the game and off this board
the core group of mini ' brad vanguards' that are now inhabiting hz again trying to get their ' vision' of hz pounded into others is unreal

You might play WoW on a non RP server for 1 hour in prime time.
You'll return to Horizons with a lifetime subscription.

But where, exactly, does the idea of "playing to win" fit into a MMO like Horizons or other PvE type MMOs where there is no pre-defined "reward" programmed into the game for being able to snag that boss creature every time, while "lesser players" can't? What meaningful reward comes from being able to snatch a mob from in front of another player over and over again? Bragging rights? Self-edification of being "the better player"?

The article I linked applies to every game.
You may find fantastic reasons why you have no reason to "min max" or to exploit in PvE games yet it's heavily done.

I have found more of such kind people in PvE shards in WoW than in the PvP ones (because being unable to kill who pisses you off apparently brings somewhat of a more bitter mood).

The reason is that those with the mindset to do those things, don't leave it out when they play Horizons.
They will try evade taxes in real life, try not to pay insurance, they are "smart inside" in their own point of view.
It's not a game, it's the brain that is done like that.

If the so-called "scrub" needs to tag that boss for a quest, for example, and someone else is managing to tag it every time because they've become more efficient at it through repetition, and perhaps are a more skilled player, is that a sign of "playing to win" or just being plain greedy?

This happens constantly in WoW. There are some "schools" that need to go to mobs and melee them, others who can throw an instant cast DoT that can be applied to whatever number of mobs at the same time, and they do it in your face. You end up farming the "just spawned" mobs that happen to be exactly on top of you, while they farm the whole spawn.

Given the up to 22,000 players per shard and some spawns being unique for some materials you end up screwed up 24/7 even during week end nights, warlocks getting every benefit of every single aspect of the game (best in PvP, best in PvE, best at grinding, best at farming, best at questing).

All is left to do for the others is to go to an alternate spawn, full of other "lesser" schools anyway, with half the spawn rate and half the drop rate.

That seems extremely selfish and unreasonable to me

The article, nor who posted it, don't talk about morality - they assume none by default, they are cold observers of what happens in the world since the dawn of humanity: the stronger / smarter relentlessy crushing the weaker and boasting about it.

It's why I am Lunus in game and real life, I lost any hope or respect in humanity 20 years ago. When I lived in a sort of Bronx, but with "politically correct" and wealthy people instead of poor desperates, doing each other worse than you'd could believe it was possible. Just for the sake of evil and the taste of ruining others, not a single other reason.

I see any kind and honest person as a cheerished surprise, everyone else as "well, you are just another of countless jerks, peace out".

What's wrong with the "competitive" one recognizing that this guy needs the boss and either A: letting them have a go at it; so they only kill the thing 19 times instead of 20. Or, B: inviting them to group with them so the "competitive" guy gets the kill and helps the "scrub" get his quest completed. That's a win-win situation in my eyes and it's what I personally do in such a game as Horizons.

You are what the article calls "scrub" and are giving out reasons on why you are one, exactly by the book.
You are right, in your context.

A "winner" won't let you win, even if you were playing paper dolls, their defining trait is to be relentless and still finding new ways to screw you more.

Not saying that I agree about them, I am but a scrub like you, but I am a bard and a dragon, I see things from the outside, with an alien and careless eye.

[Theros Ironfeld]

You might play WoW on a non RP server for 1 hour in prime time.
You'll return to Horizons with a lifetime subscription.

.

Sorry laddie but you are way off on that one
I DO play WoW in prime time on a pve server check me siggy
I WILL NOT return to horizons for many reasons and your twisted view of WoW will not put me off playing it either
99% of the Conclave of Shadows formally of Blight now reside on Aman'thul server WoW , they too have their reasons for NOT returning to hz
One gets used to a lag free game ... running around Ironforge or Stormwind packed with other players AND NOT LAGGING is something i experience everyday !
I kinda feel sorry for you in a way in that you cant seem to let the things you didnt enjoy on WoW go and its now turned into some twisted hz is better vendetta.
HZ is not better ... nor is it worse ...it is different for sure ... but no longer worthwhile both in monetary terms or enjoyment for me to return ... ever
i suggest you read my farewell on the blight section ...pay attention to some of the replies and 'read' between the lines.


oh and peachy i wont even attempt to argue with you ... last time i did it earned me a ban

[Starmind]

Ouch! Is someone bitter? I agree, it sometimes gets laggy when I have more than a half dozen people in my immediate vicinity. Yet when you compare the positive content (community, crafting, DRAGONS, etc. etc. etc.) vs the bugs, I'ld say HZ still outclasses WoW as much as a Post-Doctorate outclasses a kindergartner.
Bugs can be fixed eventually. The lack of class and an immersive environment that WoW suffers is much harder to ameliorate.

Just my 2 copper's worth
Whaddya Think?

[Lupine73]

The article I linked applies to every game.
You may find fantastic reasons why you have no reason to "min max" or to exploit in PvE games yet it's heavily done.

...

Well first I think there's another word for people who exploit in online games instead of playing them, and it isn't "competitive". There's a reason why those people are banned when caught. Exploiting is not "being competitive", it's cheating. And if some feel the rules (not their own, but those found in the EULA or ToS they agree to abide by when they play) somehow don't apply to them and they're above them, well, there's a word for that, too - and it ain't "competitive".

As for min-maxers... In my experience, min-maxers are only concerned about having the best numbers possible, period. I've never seen any of them needing to be better than someone else. Quite the opposite. In fact, if someone finds a build that works better than theirs, they'll adjust accordingly. Those I've seen expect others to be equipped as well as they are. They believe they're setting a standard all should follow, and frown on those who don't because that person would be a "weak link" slowing their xp down. I've seen people kicked out of parties because they weren't geared up the way a min-maxer felt they should be. That's not being competitive... that's being an elitist you-know-what.

As for the whole "scrub" versus "competitive" thing... It over-simplifies the situation far too much. Their concept of "scrub" from the article is "someone who's given up before they start playing". And certainly there are people like that. However, that's hardly the case with me and others I've known. I'm simply capable of keeping things in context. I'm competitive when there's a reason to be.

When I played Lineage 2, a game built around competition in the form of Castle Sieges and such, I was extremely competitive. I'd regularly go on PK'ing sprees in an area I was farming in if others came in and started hogging up the resources I was after. I would pro-actively hunt down others for other competitive reasons.

In Horizons, if I decided I wanted to farm some mob for whatever it drops and someone else was out there doing the same thing - guess what, it's game on. Because that is a context for competition. It's me competing with them for a finite resource.

However, if it's just me out there needing to finish a quest that is in there, by design, for people to complete, and someone decides they're going to be "competitive" and try not to "let" me have it, I think it says a whole lot more about that person than it does me.

If I decided there was a point to it, I could be the person out there monopolizing some resource, trying to keep anyone else from getting it. Very easily. I don't... why? Because there's no point to it. I have nothing to gain, except, perhaps, gaining a reputation as a moron to the rest of the server. I suppose the "competitive" type might bare that as a badge of honor or something. However, being as how I really enjoy the community aspect of a MMO, that would be a pretty counter-intuitive thing to do.

Point is... I am very competitive - when there's a point to be. There is no point - self-edification and ego-stroking notwithstanding - to preventing another player from getting a mob kill that they need to complete a quest and get on with their game. It's only a competition because they insist on seeing it as one. This is where some generalized, 2-sided category of "scrub" versus "competitive" falls down. It paints the situation in very black and white terms and you simply can't.

[Chioxin]

*Hugs theros and Kala because he knows exactly what they mean, and feels much the same way.* Well, except I did return for now.

[fireblade]

after reading that article and briefly looking though posts

it seems to me that in general everyone will to some extent play games according to their "own" rules which often conflict with other peoples "own" rules.

usually both of these are different to the designers intended rules for the game.

in this situation whether someone has "a right" to complain, about others actions, would depend on whether the action is outside the "designers intended rules" if there action is balanced, there exists is present a practical counter to the others actions.

in general if a game is balanced then complaining about someone performing an action that is within "the designers intended rules" and has a practical counter is akin to complaining that a chess knight can move 3 forward and 1 across (L) and can jump other pieces.

which in general comes back to the point that you either accept "the designers intended rules" or go somewhere else as attempts to do something else with mostly end in fail our.

as to "playing to win" your or anyone else's opinions on what constitutes winning is largely irrelevant as it is only "the designers intended rules" description of wining that matters, because arguing over anything else will largely not get you anywhere.

for MMORPGs the concept of winning in the long term is not important as if you had won and that was it, then you would stop playing, so its not the winning that is important but the process involved that results in the feeling that you have gained something (what would depend on the individual).

along these lines an exploit is anything that is outside "the designers intended rules" irrelevant of what or how large or minor it is.

the scrub vs competitive argument may or may not apply to MMORPGs dependent on context again related to "the designers intended rules"
where there exists appropriate mechanics (PvP) to counter actions of other players this can apply, but in PvE where there does not exist balanced method to counter the action of other players, then you cannot correctly apply this argument as you cannot blame the inability of players to compete on their own lack of expertise or self imposed rules, but on unbalanced game mechanics.

the complicated issue behind this is the one of "the designers intended rules" and balancing, as your own view or anyone else's may differ substantially from each other and the designers.

if you are doing something that is not intended to be done that way
e.g trying to put in screws with a hammer
you cannot reasonably complain if it doesn't work very well, of course that doesn't mean you aren't entitled to do so.

some of the issues people seem to have, specifically in games that have classes, people seem to fail to understand the concept of role play, regardless of whether it is a role play server, having class based system forces role play upon you as each class has specific role with specific strengths and weaknesses, attempting to play outside of this the further you get from "the optimum" will inevitably result in disadvantages, which you will have to either put up with it, adjust more towards "the optimum" or try a different class that more fits how you want to play .

[Lupine73]

for MMORPGs the concept of winning in the long term is not important as if you had won and that was it, then you would stop playing, so its not the winning that is important but the process involved that results in the feeling that you have gained something (what would depend on the individual).

...

the scrub vs competitive argument may or may not apply to MMORPGs dependent on context again related to "the designers intended rules"
where there exists appropriate mechanics (PvP) to counter actions of other players this can apply, but in PvE where there does not exist balanced method to counter the action of other players, then you cannot correctly apply this argument as you cannot blame the inability of players to compete on their own lack of expertise or self imposed rules, but on unbalanced game mechanics.

I think this sums it up well.

Again, in a PvP MMORPG, where competition is at the very heart of the game and even indicated right in the description - Player Versus Player - the "competitive" mindset is perfectly at home and specifically provided for. There is something, or several somethings, to be "won" there... And those rewards are designed into the game by the developers; not concocted in the minds of some players.

It's also worth noting that the behavior discussed - hoarding mobs or resources in a game - is often and actively discouraged by game developers and/or GM's - particularly in non-PvP games. I've heard of incidents where the GM physically *moved* offenders to another location when they refused to leave on their own. Why? Because, despite what the "competitive" types might think, it is often the devs' intention that world resources are to be shared; not monopolized and people doing so are considered disruptive. Certainly, the devs/GMs in those cases don't share the "competitive" person's point-of-view as that article would frame it.

Conversely, in a game like L2, it's encouraged: If you want a resource badly enough and someone else is snatching all of it and refuses to share - fight them for it. I've seen and participated in that kind of thing many times myself, from both sides. If someone reports you for it, the reply they get from the GM is "Well, it's a PvP game... that's allowed".

Another problem I have with the article - well, two problems are:

1. It seems, at least in my reading it, to be biased in favor of the "competitive" type. Besides, "good competition" is generally seen as a positive thing, no? However, for those who aren't "playing to win", well... they're just "scrubs". They don't "play to win" and they've lost before they began. All negative. All sad. All a crock, in my opinion. Why? Well, that's my next point...

2. It is perfectly acceptable to be playing in a spirit of cooperation. Really, it is. It's not "being a scrub" or admitting defeat, blah blah... It's simply a different mindset; an alternative. "There's enough to go around, so why be greedy?"

In the end, some folks also realize there's a world beyond the tip of our own nose, that the Earth is round and that we share it with many others.

[Nanain]

IMHO:

1. Nevermind labels, u play as u like as long as u dont interfere with someone elses playstyle, or slam it. If my group was bashing a boss mob, etc, and there were others there, then I'd invite, or ask if they wanted to go first.
You can't use 'competition' as an excuse to override player etiquette.

2. I may be old school, but going onto a game's boards and slamming it, isn't done. Ever.

[Starmind]

Here's my take on the whole PvP vs. PvE.

I like Horizons for the specific reason that it is more of a "Cooperative" than a "Competitive" environment. If two people need specific kills and resources, why can't they work together rather than be an ### to each other and try to make each other's experience miserable?
The whole reason I don't care for most MMORPG's out there is that they tend to attrack the 12yr old mentality of back-stabbing, hair pulling, and then whining when it happens to them.

In Horizons, I don't have to worry about kill stealers, naggers, harrangers, (or perhaps that's just the RP Order Shard) Why do you think I keep coming back after almost 5 years?

I've been MMORPG'ing since before the advent of graphics in MMORPG's (begining with MUD's like Gemstone 2-4 and even Bulletin Board based turn based games) Horizons by far is the best community environment I've experienced to date.

Instead of going out with a "ME ME ME ME" attitude, why can't we focus on "US"

Just a thought or two or three;
Whaddya Think?