please put it back...

[pevil2000]

Ok before I post I'd like you all to know my Helian spellcaster is only lvl 5, and my druid/cleric/mage is only rating of about 7 in each of those. So I have no experience really with them. However my 72 Lunus did use all the breezes (only the top tier available) and also the debuff/buff spells whenever she needed.

But, my point is pretty much the same as Justa's. Now, I HATE for all mmos to be a clone of each other, I particularly hate that most of the big ones (WoW, EQ2, LotRO) are all basically the same game with different skins. But even in those, they all require mana for spells (or rage for warriors etc etc, some form of finite energy at least). Those that aren't clones, e.g. UO also insists that everyone has mana to cast a spell (note abilities are different of course). Virtually every rpg/mmorpg/arpg has some form of finite resource that stops you basically spamming over and over again.

I think the nearest to Hz is Sacred, where you can have 5 'Combat Arts' equipped at once. They can be of two categories, spell or just combat art. They all have individual cooldowns. So say you have two spells, firebolt and icebolt, with cooldowns of 3 and 4 seconds respectively. Cast firebolt, both will go to a cooldown of 3 seconds. If you cast the icebolt first, the firebolt would take the 3 seconds cooldown and the icebolt will take 4 seconds cooldown.

Anyhoo, my point is they should leave it as it is, but perhaps look at fixing some of the cooldowns if they're a bit extreme. In WoW you only use a lower tier if it is still effective BUT MORE MANA EFFICIENT. Since we don't have mana, perhaps the "essential" spells can have a lower cooldown if it does prove 'gamebreaking'.

[Kulamata]

I agree with Dhalin. The issue is not really whether it should have been fixed sometime in the last four years, but that the game balance, especially the WA evolution, was calibrated with the old system, and that no corresponding change has been made. I would have much preferred a pass at offsetting, even if the final values had to be reached by successive approximation.

It simply doesn't matter that "it's not working as originally intended". That assumes that the original intent was optimal to begin with, and ignores the counterbalancing that has occurred since. Sort of an ideological blinder.

I hope wif all ma heart that this does not signal a return to the bad habits of the DB years, when nerfing and grinding were seen as valuable additions to the game.

[CallakDW]

I will admit I have been weakened by this change, however, we (dragons, not Helians, and yes, I'm Helian) are not all that bad off. We have 4 top tier AOE spells, two for close quarters, and two at range, we have our breath weapon, also AOE and as an ancient we have Burst of Flame breath which is not on the same timer as our other breath abilities and is an extreemly powerful AOE. Then there is also spiked scales which is basically a weaker version of COT. I don't know about sub ancients, but I still am somthing to be dealt with in a croud controll situation.

[CallakDW]

I agree with Dhalin. The issue is not really whether it should have been fixed sometime in the last four years, but that the game balance, especially the WA evolution, was calibrated with the old system, and that no corresponding change has been made. I would have much preferred a pass at offsetting, even if the final values had to be reached by successive approximation.

This makes sense to me.

[Vermithraxx]

It simply doesn't matter that "it's not working as originally intended". That assumes that the original intent was optimal to begin with, and ignores the counterbalancing that has occurred since. Sort of an ideological blinder.

I hope wif all ma heart that this does not signal a return to the bad habits of the DB years, when nerfing and grinding were seen as valuable additions to the game.

Amen, and agreed.

It's screwups like these that make me wish for EI. Think about it, when EI was here, the game was consistent. Also known as stagnant, but there were no random downtimes, and Maintenance day took a precise amount of time. You always knew what game you were logging into, and everybody knew where all the mobs were.

Now? I, for one, don't consider nerfs of this caliber 'exciting'. Nor challenging. (As we say in EQ2, 'The only thing being challenged here is my patience'.) Plus, rumor has it this nerf was part of some broad-sweeping re-balance (re-nerfing?) of the game. So where's the rest? Reading the Blight patch notes, I see no addition of new Dragon AoEs, new group-wide rez spells for the healers, adjustments to recycle timers across the board, etc.

But, just my 2 copper. I know a lot of people support the new guys since they're from Tulga (whom I missed entirely) but moves like this nerf, when there are so many more critical areas where man-hours need to be spent, just don't impress me.

[mage]

I think these changes are good. As the devs stated this was a broken element of the game. Things that are overpowered need to be corrected for the well-being of the game as a whole.

[Menkure]

Amen, and agreed.

It's screwups like these that make me wish for EI. Think about it, when EI was here, the game was consistent. Also known as stagnant, but there were no random downtimes, and Maintenance day took a precise amount of time. You always knew what game you were logging into, and everybody knew where all the mobs were.......

You can't POSSIBLY be serious, can you????

[Pharcellus]

You can't POSSIBLY be serious, can you????

I don't think he is trying to say he wants EI back, but is trying to point out at least one positive (in his mind) that came as a result of their stewardship: consistency.

Some people don't like change. Personally, I like change, but I don't like change for the worst, though sometimes you have to take one with another.

[Dhalin]

I can see where Helian dragons are going to feel the pinch with this, I have a Helian dragon, I have pumped training points into T&C so I can do some decent damage with melee attacks to make up for my lack of having damaging spells to use.

On second glance, this quote caught my eye:

Basically, Helian dragons cannot play as pure mages anymore, and are -forced- to become Melee/Mage Hybrid. Nothing like handing Helians a Nerf saying "no, no, you can't use your playstyle anymore, you gotta do a hybrid now!" even if it doesn't go with lore, and/or what that player wanted his character to be.

If I wanted a powerful spellcasting magic-using dragon, I can't have it now, because it is far, far too weak now that I cannot use my lower tier spells while waiting on my higher tier spells to cool down. So, I am -forced- into making a melee/mage hybrid.

Dragons have "breeze" abilities and spells and 1 instant heal. DOT heals are not that impressive for lasting in battle, and having a Helian rely on melee because they lack in attack spells doesn't fit the lore or the Helian way.

Yet another quote from the same person, even more strongly illustrating what is wrong with this change when it comes to Dragons.

Again, Virtrium has had the game for 2 months, they do listen to feedback, and again, they might fix / reverse things if it makes the remaining veteran players start to jump ship. For new players, they start with a perspective of "This is how it is" and deal with it.

I hope they listen to players, and Soon....

So, here's the issue:

1). There's not enough offensive dragon spells to support a full dragon caster.

Solution: Add more Offensive Dragon Spells, or, increase the power of the existing ones.

2). Breezes are not powerful enough to sustain a dragon, especially a caster, in prolonged battle.

Solution: Increase the power of breezes, or add at least one Instant Heal spell.

3). Rezzes are non-existent for the most part.

Solution: Add a Lv50 Rez that has a cooldown of 10 minutes, but returns the person to life with a small amount of HP. It would be better than the dead person waiting 60min between rezzes.

I can't really say much for biped spellcasters at this point, but I'm sure someone else could start.... from what I have read, it sounds like we really need more Ice spells....

[Magfuddle]

As a returner having left Istaria about 2 years ago and just ventured back last night, can I have some confirmation of what I think is going on.

Before I left Istaria I could use (for example) T1,2 and 3 Ice Shackle to kite and keep a single mob out of range and with some skill could kill a mob at or just above my own level. I could also cast a different tier Ice Shackle on an add for crowd control if I pulled linked mobs.

Is it now the case (no I cant get back in game at the moment to try this - at work) that I can't do this ? That all the Ice Shackles share a cooldown timer ?

[rizo/nawkia]

ok ill admit ive been a bit immature with what i said...so let me be mature for a moment. virt can please everybody is what ive thought thuss far an im right cause im not pleased an im pleased at the same time... confusin hunh?

anywho ima give a low down on whats missing,

1.dragons-breezes and aoes
2-mages-more ice spells an maybe energy
3-healers-at least another res that can be used by all classes that can use the current res, think about it when it comes to boss mobs, if everyones dead except one youll never get more than one back up less ya got another res>.>
4.druids-at least one more aoe, or lengthen the stunning time of thunder otherwise ya might as well not have it at all cause 2 sec aint jack
5 i dono cant think of a 5....maybe lower agressive rates of undead!!! (died twice in 15min from originaly pullling 2 undead getting 6 instead..)

correct magfuddle
anyone else got input?

[velveeta]

Amen, and agreed.

It's screwups like these that make me wish for EI. Think about it, when EI was here, the game was consistent. Also known as stagnant, but there were no random downtimes, and Maintenance day took a precise amount of time. You always knew what game you were logging into, and everybody knew where all the mobs were.

i was tempted to say something that would be interpreted wrong, so i rethought, but can't really come up with a good way to ask if you have a concussion or what you are smoking.....
wish for ei? you can't be serious!! i am sure there would be no horizons at all if ei was still in charge. vi has done more in 3 months then ei even thought about doing. ei was not going to release any more new content, how could it? they didn't have a test server anymore!! any new content would be untested and bugged and then you would beeatching about that! you couldn't pay to play, so after losing money, ei would have let the game rot.
i am sorry if some changes upset you. but everything changes eventually and one must learn to go with the flow and find new ways to deal.
this is not just about a game, this is life!

[Xanthia]

vi has done more in 3 months then ei even thought about doing.

That isn't true, EI did do lots of things too while here! *says the following in a big fake smile* They destroyed blight, gave false hopes to unity players, shredded the billing system(including overcharging people and apparently threating those that question them with legal action), let the website get attacked by a trojan, disconnected themselves from the customers and left us in the dark, stopped new people from registering into the forums so they couldn't complain and pummelled all hopes and dreams for the future of HZ into nothingness.

I will give them though the fact that they did banned a lot of people that really deserved to be ban. I'll give them that and only that.


Okay, I can totally understand that why people would be angry about this new spell linking thing. However saying you would rather have EI back then have this kind of thing....... it is like saying you rather have kidney failure, a heart attack, broken bones and a stroke all at the same time then a really, really bad headache.(Sorry if this is sounding a bit too mean, I just really really really hate EI). >><< Just my opinion though.
Yes it is harder......but you can still change your character and hunt. It isn't impossible, just a question of whether you are willing to or not. If you are not, be happy they AREN'T EI and might actually change it.... maybe.

[Casyle]

Aye. You'd have to be mental to want EI back. They left the game to rot for cripes sake!

[Steelclaw]

I've been waiting awhile to weigh in on this.

I'll agree that linked timers are good. They enable progression along a spell line, essentially giving the effect that the caster is becoming more proficient and powerful.

HOWEVER.

I do not agree that the current spell configuration for dragons is "done", especially with respect to the AoE damage spells. (I can't say anything about biped casters.) The damage output/time at a single mob is pretty low -- lower than melee, lower than sitting on the ground with spiked scales, heck, it's even lower than casting prime bolt. (For reference, the single mob dps with unlinked AoE recycle timers was pretty dang high -- higher than melee and prime bolt casting.)

I'll concede that there should be a tradeoff for being able to do damage to multiple targets at once. That tradeoff, however, shouldn't be to the point that sitting down with refreshing breeze and spiked scales becomes more appealing than getting up and casting. That's not a tradeoff, that's just broken.

In other words, make it worth my time to build up a caster. This is a good opportunity to make some adjustments since everyone is looking at it now.

What adjustments? (Once again, I only have experience with dragons, so I can't say anything about biped spells.)

For quick and dirty, I propose dropping the timers a little. As a starting point, try setting the recycle timers on the AoEs to around 20-22 instead of 30 and the cast timer on prime bolt to 40 instead of 48.

For not as quick and dirty, (and a bit more rewarding):

1) DECREASE the damage values on spells:
-- new damage range + primal damage tech = old damage range

2) Create an additional damage tech that has a bigger damage increase than primal damage.
-- This tech line does not follow the 10 primal/tier base skill requirement. (It will need to be increased.)
-- The final damage values should look like:
---- new damage range + new damage tech = old damage range + old damage tech + something
-- the 'something' follows an exponential progression, not a linear one.
-- Oh yeah, this tech can't stack with primal damage.

3) Create an additional tech line that reduces the recycle and cast time. (Haven't thought about the modifiers yet)
-- This tech is mutually exclusive with the tech described in #2.
-- It also has the same progression of base skill requirement.
-- It is, however, stackable with primal damage.


The end goal is to enable a player to create a spell that either hits hard or can be cast quickly, but not both. The most powerful of these options would only be open to those who have enough commitment to their primal skill. This would add some variety to dragon casting, as well as (hopefully) alleviate most of the complaints relating to linked timers and primal spells in general. You know... make it fun to cast spells.

[Kulamata]

I think these changes are good. As the devs stated this was a broken element of the game. Things that are overpowered need to be corrected for the well-being of the game as a whole.

The point is that power, over, under, or equal only has meaning relatively. Overpowered with respect to what? And broken doesn't necessarily mean overpowered. I feel that if it really had been broken, it would have been fixed; the devs just weren't that clueless.

Were players knocking over the WA with impunity? For that sort of question, I look at Kwinn's most excellent guides; he was thoughtfully (and heavily) multi-classed, a serious student of combat success who wore specifically teched armor for the target of the day, usually on the satyr isles. If he needed to take that kind of care, he, (let alone the average player) was not overpowered.

Since there was no evidence that players were markedly overpowered, I'd have liked to have some offsetting balancing changes made at the same time.

[Dhalin]

The point is that power, over, under, or equal only has meaning relatively. Overpowered with respect to what? And broken doesn't necessarily mean overpowered. I feel that if it really had been broken, it would have been fixed; the devs just weren't that clueless.

Were players knocking over the WA with impunity? For that sort of question, I look at Kwinn's most excellent guides; he was thoughtfully (and heavily) multi-classed, a serious student of combat success who wore specifically teched armor for the target of the day, usually on the satyr isles. If he needed to take that kind of care, he, (let alone the average player) was not overpowered.

Since there was no evidence that players were markedly overpowered, I'd have liked to have some offsetting balancing changes made at the same time.

Yeah, it is kinda stupid to try and balance mobs centered around the most Elite, wearing the best equipment Istaria has to offer, and having multiple schools on Lv100.

When you do that, how, again are the single-Lv100 schools with medium equipment ever supposed to kill these mobs in a reasonable fashion? I can understand introducing boss mobs that are meant for "endgamers" to kill, but just plain ordinary XP and Loot Fodder should not require ELITE gear/skill/levels to kill.

Other games in the past have made this mistake, and I really hope that VI plans to tone down the mobs a little, or, introduce new spells to fill in the gaps caused by this spell linking thing to bring players back up to where they used to be. Yes, there used to be a few exploits, like kiting a mob forever with Ice Shackles as another poster mentioned, but in killing one or two exploits, you stuck a knife into nearly every spellcaster in the game, and hit dragons especially hard.

Excuse me, but my idea of a Dragon Spellcaster isn't "cast a bunch of breezes while mobs pound on your spiked scales"... when I think "Dragon Spellcaster", I think of this mage dragon weaving spell after spell, using his awesome magical power that dragons are nearly always depicted as having in most fictional works, raining down anything from firestorms, to ice storms, to thunder storms, casting spells on themselves, and ripping apart their foes with sheer arcane energy.

A dragon huddling under his spiked scales is hardly that.

If you wanted to kill just a couple exploits, why didn't you link JUST the Ice Shackles spell, for instance, or was that not possible?

[Drevar]

People do realize that there is blighted gear out there with delay and recycle time reduction effects, right? It has been a long time complaint that blighted stuff is pretty useless. 3 or 4 items with -10% recycle sure looks pretty **** good to me now.

Waaaah! But then I can't wear my uber scales/jewelry/armor! I want it all!" Tough. Choose or lose.

Drev

[LOVWYRM]

THX for your comment, Velveeta.

Lot`s of (I try to be polite) "strange" posts are goin`round atm.
Not only in this thread

[Alladania]

I guess I'm one of the silly casters. My wizard never used multiple tiers of the different spells. I had too many hotkeys cluttering my screen as it was. I didn't even know you could use multiple tiers of the same spell until just before the EI fiasco. I'm careful in combat and don't do uber pulls.

I do strongly agree that dragons need their spell lines expanded and that certain biped casting lines (like ice) are terribly limited right now.