Favoritism

[JDexter]

This thread is exactly what I eluded to in an earlier post of mine.

It stinks, and no justification in any way can make this right.

This is one of many situations that went on 'behind the scenes' to benefit the special few.

Glad to see the Status Quo has been retained.

Not even sure why I came back, since apparently things like this can still happen.

Edit: anyone else care to chime in? Peaches perhaps?

[Ophelea]

This thread is exactly what I eluded to in an earlier post of mine.

It stinks, and no justification in any way can make this right.

This is one of many situations that went on 'behind the scenes' to benefit the special few.

Glad to see the Status Quo has been retained.

Not even sure why I came back, since apparently things like this can still happen.

Edit: anyone else care to chime in? Peaches perhaps?

JDexter,

The changes happened in July 2006...

How exactly has the "status quo" been retained?

[Pharcellus]

It's 'moot', BTW...

Not in my usage; I know "moot point" is popular (even though it doesn't make any sense, based on the root meaning of the word), and grammar nazis (like you are apparently imitating, for what purpose in this discussion, I can't imagine ) like to jump on it all the time. However, I prefer in my INFORMAL discussions to use it as such, because it makes more sense to me meaning, literally, "a point which no longer speaks to the argument" and, hence, "is mute". Of course, you would no doubt continue to be obtuse and pedantic, pointing out next that "points don't speak, they neither have mouths nor vocal chords", prompting a flurry of dictionary and anecdotal intarweb site quotes.

Now, shall we continue the semantics shenanigans, or get back to the mootable points?

The point that is being ignored in the rush to grab torches & pitchforks is that Hal's plot is only one of many that David resized. He'd been doing it for months, well before Hal's internship was even discussed, and not once had anyone thought it improper.

It wasn't ignored; it was mooted over and accepted, but not as a complete justification for the action.

Yes, David wanted to do something neat for Hal, as he did whenever a player came to the Tulga offices. Hal got to watch as David enlarged his plot and one of the neighboring ones.

..and that is the real crux of the issue. "Doing something neat" for someone should NOT include giving them preferential treatment in-game (which doesn't HAVE to be game-breaking, btw). Not every player a) is welcome and b) able to take advantage of a trip to the developer's offices for their free "in-game consideration".

It wasn't game-breaking, it didn't confer any significant advantage in gameplay, and it wasn't even a unique gift. Sure, it was a nice goodie, but the neat part was watching while it was done.

It doesn't have to be. The point is that showing people preferential treatment via in-game material considerations is wrong, even if it was something as simple as advancing a timetable without justification.

Hal could just as easily watched David increase the size of other plots on his schedule. There was no reason why David demonstrated on Hal's plots (and yes, the nearby ones, too) other than "giving Hal a gift" of preference.

One point that I think is being missed here is that lots of plots were increased, yet no more have been or most likely will be for some time, if at all, even if they should be or were slated to, so that "neat gift" turns a little more bitter in some folks' eyes, and (I think, anyway) rightly so.

Favoritism would be something game-breaking, something that conferred a significant advantage and which was unique to Hal. If David had given Hal a Boar's Hide Mask, or T6 gear, or rebuilt Hal's plot with finished T6 structures, then I'd say that calling favoritism would be deserved. He didn't, and it's not.

Wrong. Favoritism does NOT have to be game breaking. Let's say I, as a WM, decided to give you a small stack of T5 speed potions just because I like your stories and quest work. That wouldn't be game-breaking, but it still would be just as wrong. Yes, it is a matter of scale and perspective, but it is just something that good game companies avoid like the plague, even if it is minor and "innocent". The primary reason is exactly because, as someone pointed out, "where does it end?". The EvE Online devs participated with a core lack of that ethic, and it ended up with devs caught in bed with players, giving them serious game-breaking "consideration".

Again, David did nothing for Hal that he hadn't already done for a great many other players. Hal just got to watch it being done, that's all.

Hal has an expanded plot which others who are no less deserving (Landowyn, as an example) probably will never see. David didn't have time to finish expanding them all, and Hal got in "ahead of the game". Did David move up the timetable of plot upgrades because of Hal being there? If so, then that is what is being disputed.

It's like a lot of things that Tulga/AE did which were very amateurish in planning/implementation. It sucks, and there is little that can be done about it now, which is why it is a good reason to avoid these kinds of problems in the first place.

Note that I am not intending to "demonize" Hal. He didn't do anything wrong himself; he is only the beneficiary. No one needs to throw any ire in his direction over this (well, unless he does something else to deserve it.. ).

In truth, I wasn't aware that plots had been getting expanded piecemeal like that; it probably started after I left. If I had been there, I probably would have complained pretty vehemently about how it was done; you just don't do that kind of stuff without a formal plan, and you have to make it fair and equitable to all, or you run the risk of seriously pissing off the playerbase.

[JDexter]

Because it hasn't been removed, and the people who received the favors are willing to defend their rights to those favors. That's a pervasive attitude that stayed here, unfortunatly.

[Landowyn]

Phar, you are far more eloquent than I. I just think it's a shame that the special few don't see the danger in this kind of activity.

[CallakDW]

I'm just going to say bluntly what I'm thinking here. At this time I don't believe there is favoratisim here, just unfortunate luck. Sorry yours didn't get expanded, Landowyn.

Edit- either that or I don't care that much about wether my own plot size gets adjusted or not, as I'm trying to put myself in your shoes.

[LaughingOtter]

You are hanging your hat on the fact that other plots were increased in size, but I can only compare it to Order, where one is owned and the other is owned by a player I haven't seen a a good long time.

Earth to Landowyn, when a plot is increased in size on Genesis it changes on all servers as well. Changing one plot affects all owners on all shards. At the time, that could have been up to four players per plot, assuming Luca would ever have updated Unity.

David had been resizing plots for months before he touched the one Hal owns. He had completely redone Genevia, substantial portions of Scorpion Isle, and quite a few in Bristugo & the nearby areas. All in all, he'd probably done a couple hundred plots before doing Hal's and a good number after that. Pull up a map and look at the number of plots on Genevia and Scorpion Isle. One plot can have three owners right now, so assuming that Hal's plot was one out of, oh, say, 200 that were adjusted, that's up to 600 other players that got exactly the same degree of "favoritism" that Hal did.

"I can only compare it to Order" - that's a pretty myopic perspective, don't you think?

begging for them from higher ups...

<SNIP>

...brown-nosing the game's administrators/owners.

See, when you throw out statements like that, it becomes really obvious that you have a personal axe to grind against Hal, and probably against David as well. You're trying to belittle his actual contributions by insinuating the plot expansion was a reward for "begging" and "brown-nosing". The truth is that Hal was not only unpaid, but was out of pocket for airfare & expenses. Nor was this a vacation; Hal was in the office at least 40 hours a week, mostly doing highly glamorous data entry. The crystal fixes that just went live were almost all a result of his work. That's not begging and brown-nosing, that's tedious, mind-numbing work, topped off, IIRC, by crashing on Frid's couch on at least a few occasions.

Hal didn't even get to finish the internship. He got to sit outside David's office as the staff came in, one by one, to be fired and handed their final paychecks. Then he got to sit in the office listening to Ed & Ray, but wasn't allowed to say anything.

You can disregard the truth all you want, but you can't change it. Hal's plot was one of several hundred David enlarged - hardly a unique & personal reward - and if it was done as a gesture of appreciation, it was for hard work and significant personal sacrifice, not "begging" or "brown-nosing". If David had been able to continue his project over the past year, I don't doubt that the majority of plots that could have been increased would have been. If you feel you were cheated because David didn't have time to get to your plot, blame Ed & Ray for screwing that up along with almost everything else.

If your interest was finding out the truth, it's been stated to you by myself and others. I'm sorry your plot didn't get expanded. Neither did any of mine, or my wife's. Ed & Ray screwed up a good thing and it may be a long time before Vi has the time & staff to start up again. However, Hal is not to blame, and you are wrong to try to persecute & scapegoat him this way.

[JDexter]

That may be the truth LO, but then why was there any plot resizing going on with plots that are obviously already cream of the crop instead of the garbage in the outerlands?

I mean seriously, if David was all hot to boost plot sizes, there's a caseload all over the place that really need resizing, not already awesome plots being made better.

So either he was doing favors for several people (not singling Hal, because I know quite a few others) or he was more inept and out of touch than I thought before.

[Ophelea]

That may be the truth LO, but then why was there any plot resizing going on with plots that are obviously already cream of the crop instead of the garbage in the outerlands?

I mean seriously, if David was all hot to boost plot sizes, there's a caseload all over the place that really need resizing, not already awesome plots being made better.

So either he was doing favors for several people (not singling Hal, because I know quite a few others) or he was more inept and out of touch than I thought before.

Good lord...mudslinging and muckraking abounds.

JDexter, the plots were updated in this order:

1. Those who had trouble tickets related specifically to problems building due to size/shape constraints.
2. Those that had trouble tickets in general.
3. Those in the current area David was working on, i.e. Genevia...
4. Somewhere random he clicked on the map when he was tired and needed a break.
5. The odd person who visited the office saw one upsized - this could include a player seeing their own; or, it could include someone in the industry, the building manager, an old friend, employee, family member of staff, the sandwich delivery guy....he JUST LIKED TO SHOW OFF THE TOOLS.

[Pharcellus]

Folks, Hal's (and the other plots) were increased before Hal ever got a desk. David resized plots whenever he got tired of building areas.

Not according to Hal, hence:

I wasn't on the payroll but I did take out a student loan to fly out for the Summer, and this was just one of his way of welcoming me in.

In the time I was in office (I have no idea how many when I worked offsite), no fewer than 8 different groups of players came to visit. There was never a single player and the groups were often 4 or more.

Great, so if I show up at the devs' offices, can I get my plots resized right now, too? or maybe some other in-game perk?

Every time, EVERY time, David showed off the world building tools because quite frankly, they rocked. And if they so wished, and if it were POSSIBLE, he increased the size of their plots - AND EVERY PLOT AROUND THEM.

Great. They rocked. Show them off all ya want, just don't commit the changes until the project is complete and has been fair and equitable for all.

LO and his wife didn't get a plot size increase, they got a uniquely designed piece of land.

Why doesn't this surprise me?

In a zone no one can enter, there's a tank in the water and jet in the air because David and I had gone slap-happy one day. It's what I asked for.

Key phrase "In a zone no one can enter". If it doesn't affect the in-play world (ie, where people can go), it doesn't matter.

As the former community manager, I can tell you that I forwarded hundreds of requests for fixes to plots - from lack of resources, to size, to broken water - and David worked on every single one of them. THEN HE UPSIZED THE PLOT.

Bug/balance fixes are fine and expected. Miyuki (one of our guild communities) FINALLY got an outgoing portal nearby after asking for one for the better part of a year. It was part of a large update where pads and portals were added across Saritova Island. It wasn't done as a thank-you, or because I went and visited their offices (probably why it took so frigging long, in hindsight). The lair that was later stuffed underneath the portal hill never was fixed while I was there. You drowned in it, and it was placed seriously goofy, not to mention it was also a goofy size which made it mostly useless.

Cry fowl all you want, it wasn't favoritism. It's who David is...he likes to do nice things for the players and this is the one thing he could do that didn't cause a balance issue and he would have done ANYWAY.

Cool, so when does Landowyn's plot get its size upgrade? I mean, if it was supposed to be done ANYWAY.....

You see, it IS favoritism; it IS what leads many game development companies down the primrose path to real impropriety. "Awww, this won't hurt anything if I give you xxxx", then "Well, I gave so-and-so xxxx, so it won't hurt if I give you yyyy", ad nauseum. You HAVE to resist the urge, because the results are NOT pretty, as we are starting to see here.

If Hal hadn't told you what happened, you'd never know. Think about that?

..and lack of facts helps the situation how?

[Ophelea]

It gets done as soon as Virtrium hires a world builder.

What kind of inane question was that?



And you're more than welcome to go to Rick's office, but I wouldn't expect him to upgrade your plot as he doesn't know how to world build...



The bitterness and vitriol is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to go drown puppies or defile sacred burial grounds or something else more positive.

[LaughingOtter]

Let's say I, as a WM, decided to give you a small stack of T5 speed potions just because I like your stories and quest work.

I can make my own T5 speed potions, thanks.

In point of fact, I agree with you there. I've never asked for or been given any kind of personal benefit, not even a contribution to filling out my shoulder cow collection. If all the player volunteers were offered a choice of shoulder cow or an emblem as a gesture of thanks, that would be a different matter. Not that anyone has, as of yet...

I will be the first to agree that unearned personal considerations awarded because someone likes you are wrong. !00% agreement, in fact. That's not the case here. Throwing out comments on "the favored few" or the "the preferred elite" serves no purpose but to make people suspicious and angry by clouding a very simple truth.

Nothing improper was done. It's unfortunate that David couldn't continue to enlarge the remaning plots in the game, but that misfortune doesn't justify throwing out blanket accusations of misconduct.

Edit:

Quote:
LO and his wife didn't get a plot size increase, they got a uniquely designed piece of land.
Why doesn't this surprise me?

Dude, we got a 15x15 patch of red sand and a couple of cactus somewhere west of Tazoon. It makes no sense and serves no purpose other than making people who find it say"WTF is this all about?"

You want to get bent about that or call it "favoritism", you've gone past reasonable & straight into aluminum foil hat country.

[Pharcellus]

Landowyn, I'm sorry that you disagree that what you are writing here is a rant. However, plain and simply put, the whole thread is "He got greener grass than I did." It's a rant, a complaint.

I think the scope of the issue goes beyond what you are oversimplifying it as, personally. It brings to light what will now be an open can of worms for a number of folks who would now like to have their plots increased or otherwise adjusted, yet won't ever have that luxury.

I would also like to remind you that the forum rules state:

If you, or anyone else, wishes to further discuss the original topic, then the thread remains open for discussion, however.

Maybe you should follow your own rules and take discussing issues with forum moderation issues to a private message? Just a suggestion...

[Pharcellus]

It gets done as soon as Virtrium hires a world builder.

What kind of inane question was that?

I think it is a perfectly valid one. Given how hard a time Virtrium is having right now just getting simple things done and hiring devs, it is not hard to imagine or expect it will happen sometime past the Tenth of Never.

And you're more than welcome to go to Rick's office, but I wouldn't expect him to upgrade your plot as he doesn't know how to world build...

Exactly my point. Thanks!

The bitterness and vitriol is leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I'm going to go drown puppies or defile sacred burial grounds or something else more positive.

..and this helps, how, exactly? With that attitude, I suppose we can be thankful for one of your previously-posted assertions.

[Peaches]

This thread is exactly what I eluded to in an earlier post of mine.

It stinks, and no justification in any way can make this right.

This is one of many situations that went on 'behind the scenes' to benefit the special few.

Glad to see the Status Quo has been retained.

Not even sure why I came back, since apparently things like this can still happen.

Edit: anyone else care to chime in? Peaches perhaps?

I don't like to get involved in political bashing. I will let you all duke it out.

[Pharcellus]

I can make my own T5 speed potions, thanks.

Yeah, but you wouldn't turn away a few given as a gift by someone, would ya?

I will be the first to agree that unearned personal considerations awarded because someone likes you are wrong. !00% agreement, in fact.

I would go so far as to say that even "earned" ones which are due to out-of-game contributions are also wrong.

That's not the case here. Throwing out comments on "the favored few" or the "the preferred elite" serves no purpose but to make people suspicious and angry by clouding a very simple truth.

Yeah, but you are arguing against the wrong person, as I never said any such thing. I have stated that the way David went about it was probably not the best, and would, inevitably, lead to this kind of issue. It only fuels the Appearance of Impropriety issue, and actually may be unfair and improper overall by design. However, here we are. I don't think you, Ophelea, or Hal are really giving due consideration to Landowyn's feelings on the subject, and dismissing it as a trivial issue repeatedly isn't helping.. at all.

The truth is rarely "very simple", nor is it particularly pretty, except in a purist sort of way.

Nothing improper was done. It's unfortunate that David couldn't continue to enlarge the remaning plots in the game, but that misfortune doesn't justify throwing out blanket accusations of misconduct.

Again, I disagree, for reasons as stated.

Dude, we got a 15x15 patch of red sand and a couple of cactus somewhere west of Tazoon. It makes no sense and serves no purpose other than making people who find it say"WTF is this all about?"

You want to get bent about that or call it "favoritism", you've gone past reasonable & straight into aluminum foil hat country.

Well, if it isn't "favoritism", when can I get my small crystal fountain designed and placed somewhere out west of Chiconis? Do I have to visit their offices? or should I write a "B" quest or two? or both? neither? I know! How about I subscribe?! I am sure that would be the greatest contribution they could get right now. Unfortunately, then everyone would have to get theirs, too, to be fair.

[Menkure]

No need.. the mudslinging has gone way too far.

It ends now.