Blasted spawn system is ****NO**** fun. FIX IT NOW!

[CallakDW]

I still say we'd all be happier if someone came along and 'just' dumped 40 million into building Horizons2 from scratch.

Agreed, but I don't think anyone out there has that much ambition.

[Tryagain]

WoW's adventure and quest system.
LOTRO's story book setup
Horizons multiclass system but in a more realistic limited version.
Horizons Building and plot system
Horizons resource gathering system
The original concept of a dynamic world including a dynamic enemy.
EQ2's or vanguards crafting process.

Would make one hell of a game. I'd pump the money into that concept if I had the cash.

[Vaz]

I'd like...

A Ry(zom)wur(m)(Hori)zons.

With fries.

But Horizons is Horizons is good.

[CallakDW]

WoW's adventure and quest system.
LOTRO's story book setup
Horizons multiclass system but in a more realistic limited version.
Horizons Building and plot system
Horizons resource gathering system
The original concept of a dynamic world including a dynamic enemy.
EQ2's or vanguards crafting process.

Would make one hell of a game. I'd pump the money into that concept if I had the cash.

This is why I keep having to bounce back and forth between WoW and HZ now. I can't get everything I want in one game it seems. Right now I'm in WoW mode....

[gopher65]

WoW's adventure and quest system.
LOTRO's story book setup
Horizons multiclass system but in a more realistic limited version.
Horizons Building and plot system
Horizons resource gathering system
The original concept of a dynamic world including a dynamic enemy.
EQ2's or vanguards crafting process.

Would make one hell of a game. I'd pump the money into that concept if I had the cash.

Oh yeah me too. That was one of the big thing I liked about LOTRO. Unfortunately it got boring really fast, like most MMOGs. I truely wanted to explore the world some more, but I couldn't bring myself to level so that would be possible.

[Frith-Rae]

Yea Callak that's what I"ve been doing for years - WoW/Hz with a dash of other games from time to time.

One game doesn't and can't cover my interests and wants. No single game in development right now even looks to be able to do that.

I know that Hz will always be a small niche game - I actually PREFER niche games and th ones I"m looking at in the next few years that raise my interest are all small niche games but one heh.

Not saying big or small niche is better or not- I just like to support the companies doing different things and usually that = small niche game.

I also accept and know that most of the major problems are here to stay without a rewrite from the ground up. I REALLY don't expect that to ever happen - though I'd love a Horizons II. I just don't see it happening.

Sure they can fix a few things here and there and make some big world changes too. But the fundamental issues with the game engine will probably be here to stay and won't be fixed inside of a year or so anyway. This would include what the system can take - spawn issues included if that is such the nature of its issue. (and from everything I ever heard over hte last few years - this is pretty much the case though it can be improved some).

Right now wihtout an increase in subs - like heck...5K or who knows?? - for them to have the money to put into bigger/better/mopre/whatever hardware - it won't be changing.

Doesn't mean yous houldn't rattle them from time to time of course - a purposeful complaint isn't always just a "rant" *sigh*. Keeps everyone reminding everyone else that it ain't perfect and we aren't happy with it...

[CallakDW]

Sorry about going on and on on this but it is a rant-

It's just that a bad/poor adventure system seems like a really really bad problem and is going to keep them from getting any more subs, and is only going to appeal to a sertain kind of player. Right now HZ is just a relax environment with no real exitement. Craft build craft... it's the only thing I think that holds most current players interests. I'm here because I want to play a dragon more than because I like to craft. I get some satisfaction from completing a few more lair rooms once and a while, but it's really not purly what I want to do. Then I go out looking for a hunt, to find some unusual loot, and just about every time I'm dissapointed in the results, and allmost instantly I want to go play somthing else. It really is hard for me to enjoy the high level adventure in this game. Low level isn't so bad depending on what class you are playing ... I started getting really frusterated with my monk at one point though.

[LaughingOtter]

Callak, you're talking about a lot more than just the spawn system. Fixing that alone would be a monumental task, because it will indeed require manually changing the data for every single mob, redoing their spawn areas, redoing their patrol paths, and checking those against every other spawn in the area to make sure there aren't killer overlaps or, say, a leader mob capable of attracting a crowd of followers in the area.

By the way, each level of mob has a seperate template. You can't adjust "all jade golems", you have to change "level 76 jade golem", "level 77 jade golem", "level 78 jade golem", etc, individually. The reason it has to be set up this way is that each level of mob has incrementally different stats which define it. These stats are fixed so that all mob X of level y will be functionally identical. It's not like in good old D&D, where a level 5 critter could have anywhere from 5-40 hit points. If the game didn't have exact templates by level, if it used a random value in a given range, you could have stuff like a level 16 mob rolling the stats of a level 20.

Anyway, the other part of what you're talking about is reward for effort. Loot is part of that. I don't disagree that a loot revamp would be good, but I can't imagine the amount of work that would entail.

[CallakDW]

I think after I get a chance to think about this for a bit, I may have a more inteligent response to make to that LO, but I don't have time to think on it right now very long because I'm on lunch break, so this will have to do:

I understand that orgainziation has been one of the biggest problems with this game and anyone being able to accomplish anything useful with it. Just the fact that the way the spawn system worked was just figured out before the last trade off is proof of that.

I'm just so sick of hearing that just about any decent improovement to the game is a "major undertaking" that being the case it also annoys me that for as long as I can remember after the merge, as far as I know every company that took over HZ has been running on a skeleton crew of scantily payed (Or even non payed) employees.

Hmm "major undertaking" - "Skeleton crew" Does anyone see the problem here? You are not going to go anywhere without a good sized team, and lots of cash on the barrel head! Yes, I'm angry that companies buy HZ just to milk a dried out old cow, plain and simple. And I'm not speaking to the devs, I'm speaking to the moneyholders that pay them.

[Deth]

Just so you know they knew always how the spawn system worked. They just choose to change it after the merge to save system resources.

AS to the no money, thats just it who, besides someone like us players would want to spend the money on it. Anyone with the money has the desire to make more money and will not touch the game with a 10 cent pole let alone one that has the amount of cash needed to maybe get the game back on it's feet, due to all the issues that has gone on with it.

The only way ever see horizons getting the cash it needs is if one of the players win the lottery. Then you would get an investor that would care more about the game then about making money.

To bet of my knowldge, I could very easily be wrong, Rick is the owner of the server/engine software. I think the only reason he came back is because he s trying to use horizons as a way to still prove that the server/engine is a viable MMO engine and it is much cheaper to prove so with horizons rather then creating a MMO from scratch.

[LaughingOtter]

I'm just so sick of hearing that just about any decent improovement to the game is a "major undertaking" that being the case it also annoys me that for as long as I can remember.

Heh. No offense, Callak, but the simple truth is that the major issues that need to be fixed really are major issues. If they could have been fixed quickly and easily, they would have been fixed already.

There are two options for the future: shut the game down, fix or redo everything, and relaunch; or fix it while it's running and focus on making incremental improvements over time. The first option might sound logical, but it would be the end of the game right now.

In some ways, Horizons is like a patient in an ambulance. The patient is on life support, and the ambulance needs major repairs. Stop the ambulance to do the repairs, and you lose power for the life support equipment. Not a good option. The only way to make it is to keep driving and try to make as many repairs as possible while the vehicle is in motion. Let's say the loot revamp translates to a transmission rebuild. The team has to build a brand new transmission, test it, tweak it, fix what doesn't work, then screech to a halt and swap it out as quickly as they can.

It makes for a rough, frustrating ride, but it's the only way to both improve the game and keep it going. Sure a huge influx of money would help a lot, but that's not something we can count on.

[CallakDW]

I get so frusterated with it sometimes I just have to leave and come back. And get frusterated again because not much changed from last time.

[Tryagain]

If every "improvement" is a major undertaking than one was to wonder why Vitrium decided to take the game over.

I mean can they make money in not being able to undertake any of the games key issues ? Perhaps they have a break even point or something. But one has to wonder when its time to throw in the towel. Of course I assume and it can be a big assumption that people want such issues addressed. Perhaps most people that are playing now are happy with the status quo and wouldn't be bothered at all if issues like this were addressed ?

Most current players might just be happy with the game as is. In a short while we will probably see if Vitriums bank profit loss statements reflect it as well.

[Corvinus]

The spawns were just one of a number of reasons I departed these shores.
Another was the cost , FA Cup prices with little league results.

[CallakDW]

It amazes me that they don't even have an appropriate test server, it's no wonder they couldn't figure out the effects of the changes that were made after the merge? How can they stress test a system on a sub standard server that very few ever participate on because they don't want to pay for a plot there?

[CallakDW]

Most current players might just be happy with the game as is. In a short while we will probably see if Vitriums bank profit loss statements reflect it as well.

I would guess most current players are, or they would have left allready, but then all you will ever have is current players and nothing more and that slowly dwindles. The game once had a lot more players, the ones that got sick of things the way they were never getting addressed allready left.

[Goriax]

There's no good solution. Many things could be done if they had more developers, including just about everything people have mentioned. Other games ahve completely replaced the client for example. Given enough development effort, it would be possible to eventually replace all the HZ infrastructure including client, server, art assets, network protocol, etc. It could all be done with enough people working on it and it wouldn't require the game be shut down.

But developers usually insist on inconvenient things such as enough money to be able to eat on a regular basis and afford a place to sleep out of the rain.

Which brings us back to needing a player to win the lottery.

Thus it's just a small handful of people working on it, and there's limits to what a small handful of people can do.

So everyone who cares about HZ should go out RIGHT NOW and buy lottery tickets.

[LaughingOtter]

Good idea, Goriax.

Until that happens, adding subscribers is the next best thing. The good side of a small (and mostly volunteer) team is that costs are very low, and can be covered by a smaller subscriber base. However, more subscribers are really the key to getting these issues fixed.

Horizons is never going to compete with EQ or DaoC or CoH, much less WoW, because doing so would require more than just fixing the spawn system or doing a loot revamp. Faction rewards, PvP, instanced raids, limiting crafting in favor of looted gear - face it, that's the formula for success. To have massive success, you have to appeal to the masses. Horizons is a niche game, and by definition that means a smaller audience.

Horizons can be successful, and I have faith that it will be again, even with that smaller audience. I think that's fine, myself. My personal feeling is that I'd rather see Horizons enjoy small success and remain Horizons, rather than see it changed into something else in order to attract greater success.

[Vaz]

My personal feeling is that I'd rather see Horizons enjoy small success and remain Horizons, rather than see it changed into something else in order to attract greater success.

Quoted for emphasis. This is why Virtrium focusing on developing Horizons as a niche game instead of aiming for the masses is ideal.

[CallakDW]

I don't like that ^ idea, and will keep saying so as long as I dont get fed up again and leave the game once more.