Free Employees?

[Piira Laxdaela]

Not that I mind that work is getting done building Istaria better, but over the past couple of weeks, "rewards" are being offered by Vi to players that help out with models and event themes and such. GREAT!!!

But when are we going to get a quest editor to have that aspect added to?

Quests are an essential part of Istarian lore, which is an essential part of the game, and yet they are not particularly well developed. Go to npc at Start point A then go to point b then back to point A then to C then to A and so on.... Or there is the only one option to choose to continue a conversation with a npc. And then there is the whole is doing this particular quest beneficial to my character even though I know the storyline (as in doing or not doing the Vaultkeeper quests to increase storage. Of course it's a good idea to do it but one doesn't need to do say the Free Grant quests in order to know what's going on and get an xp reward of what ever it was I got and can't remember and an emblem.) Give your free employees the tool. Not all the submissions of such a change need be accepted into the Server, but at least the game progresses faster than the few actual employees can do by themselves.

But when are we going to get an world editor to have that aspect added to?

Istaria is empty! Walk on Northern Trandalar from end to end and all one will see are lairs and a single gate inside that Crystal cave. I've added, changed, and removed models from certain sectors- it's not hard and anyone caught in any of my plots (ahem - Korth - ahem) knows that things like that can be done. However, changes like that are client side. I'd love to see an underground Lair Model "road" from Ice/Fire Island to the mainland similar to the Dralk-Kira underground road make it to the server and while I can do the models and make those give me Road Bonus, I can't get in it like a normal Lair Entrance because the terrain doesn't have a hole where I just added my own secret passage. Even if that became a World Project, perhaps if we had better tools we could have a "Decorate Istaria With More Monster Spawns" or "Decorate Istaria With More Resource Areas" or even "Decorate Istaria Like Lesser Aradoth Was A Few Years Ago". Not all the submissions of such a change need be accepted into the Server, but at least the game progresses faster than the few actual employees can do by themselves. Just look at Val's dragon tapestries. Those are pretty **** nice and the sad thing is, they may not become part of the live game.

So please, if Vi is going to start getting help from players who are proficient at things like this (not programmers, but file hackers I suppose), please use those Free Employees! Feel free to add in things players could do, or completely refute this and that, no, Piira, you're wrong. The surrounding landscape of Morning Light looks great with only a few trees and nothing to do othere than a couple of quests that use that region- for the quest alone- and no reason to go to Morning Light to craft or adventure.

Did I just open a whole can of worms?

[CallakDW]

I agree, but I think first fix the basics, like spawning... <,,<

[CallakDW]

I agree, but I think first fix the basics, like spawning... <,,<

Actually I spoke before I thought. I see you are referring to the help VI is getting from players. Obviously players can't help with the spawn system, but they can definately help with lore and quest content.


And yes, I see a lot of worms squirming... I don't think it's a can, but a hole in Istaria soil.

[Deth]

I personally will be leaving when my sub is up because of one of the free employees has done things in the past that I do not agree with and is still working for them, for free.

But it is my understanding that that is at least one person already doing quest for them for free as he has past experience with the quest editor.

[Justa Mirage]

They could work on stopping exploiters.

[Piira Laxdaela]

Who better to catch a criminal than a criminal? And please don't say the police as you know as well as I do that here in the States money talks (and a bunch of subs talk too).

[CallakDW]

How about fixing the problem that's allowing them to exploit?

[Menkure]

So please, if Vi is going to start getting help from players who are proficient at things like this (not programmers, but file hackers I suppose), please use those Free Employees!

File hackers? That's rather offensive to people who have actually gone to college to study modeling programs like 3DS Max, Maya, and Lightwave... and those of us who have spent years learning these programs on our own.

Try spending an entire week on creating art assets for a game you love, for free... only to be called a mere "hacker".. and have not only your skills and artistic talents downplayed by those you are doing this for, but also all the work and effort that you are putting into it. And this is not getting into the "you work for them so there's favoritism here" accusations that seem to come standard with such a job..


I'm moving this to rants, as it fits the general description of one. If this goes too far out of hand, I will lock it.

-Menkure

[Piira Laxdaela]

Are you serious? Most of the files in regards to quests and sector deco that are seen in game are TEXT! And the topic isn't intended as a rant. It's intended as a Build An Istaria Without Huge Areas of Nothing. Perhaps it became that but that's not the intent.

[Menkure]

If you look at the internship program Vi has announced, you will see the job requirements are not just editing text files..

Requirements
Experience in polygon modeling in 3ds Max or Maya
Solid understanding of modeling efficiently for games
Reliable, able to communicate deadlines and difficulties

Duties
Evaluate existing structural game models
Improve efficiency on all level of detail models
Create and unwrap models based on existing art
Ensure changes work correctly in-game

Preference on Applicants
Able to work in both 3ds Max and Maya
Show examples of own game models
Have played "Horizons: Empire of Istaria"

-Menkure

[Piira Laxdaela]

Absolutely. There is a huge amount of skill involved to model something, texture it, light it, and render it. I'm not disputing that. But perhaps Vi could have a Player Made Modeling department _AND_ a Player Made World Making department? And sure, there'd need to be Models prior to the Wold

[Velea]

Let me be crystal clear in case Menkure wasn't.

Accusations of misconduct by ANYONE, be it player, volunteer or employee, are NOT allowed to be discussed on this forum. It violates both "good taste" as well as forum rules against slander. If you have a problem with someone exploiting, or otherwise conducting misconduct, you may submit a support ticket and customer support will work with you and investigate the matter.

Let that be the absolute final word on that particular topic.

Those who have stepped up to volunteer to help with developing Horizons are FAR from "hackers". They require a very specific skill set, and are evaluated just as any one would be when applying for an internship. Those who have been given the trust by Virtrium to act as volunteers are doing so as interns, not "just players".

That having been said, there is nothing to stop anyone from submitting a suggested storyline for a quest, for an event, or other ideas they might come up with. You don't need a quest editor in order to create a quest. If you do not feel comfortable posting on the forum under suggestions, you could submit your idea privately instead.

And I'll be blunt. I find it highly insulting that you are seemingly belittling all the knowledge, understanding, and work it takes to implement game development. No, the quests are not "just text files", as you've suggested. Having spent the last month designing and implementing new content for the game, I can tell you first hand that every single person who has had a hand in the creation of Horizons to date is FAR beyond a "file hacker" or lacking professionalism in any way, shape or form. Even interns (what you're calling "free employees") require a specific skill set. And what they do are monitored closely.

But again, please don't let any of this stop you from writing up and submitting your suggestions for quests and events if that is truly what you were asking about being able to do.

[Vermithraxx]

Not sure why this is a rant, but I'll hop in...

Based on the original post, *IF* this is feasible, I think it'd be a great idea. But there's always that nagging if... for instance: Dragon quests. Stop at lvl 70. What happened there? I've never seena straight answer from a Dev anywhere during my forum searches... did they just run out of manhours/game got sold again, or are dragons considered "finished"? If the former, any number of players (myself included) would welcome the chance to do as much of the coding work as possible thru a quest editor to finish the series. (Find the right mob/challenge for the level, write up the NPC text, etc.)

I appreciate the part about decorating sectors to look populated (lovely trick that, I'll be tossing you a tell in game asking about that, lol) but there's that nagging 'if' again... games have to take into account the lowest powered computer likely to be out there. With the performance issues this game has always suffered under thank to the wonderful coding job by AE <snicker> I have to wonder if that'd be a feasible world change. (Not to mention the servers they're trying to use nowadays barely maintain the world, and DON'T maintain the mobs, as is.)

But an editor for local landscaping WOULD be nice. It would be a local change only, but then peeps could share the files (such as Val's recent tapestry find) and install whatever their system is capable of running. After all, isn't that WHY resource_override exists?

[Piira Laxdaela]

I'm sorry. The topic may have evolved into something I didn't intend to say. I'm not suggesting that I be the intern- I know I don't have the skills that are needed or required or even that I have good ideas. Perhaps "file hacker" was not the best choice of words. But someone who completely understands the way that a quest needs to be made to work in game or completely understands the way sector defs work is what would actually be needed by Vi if the company were to set up Departments. And no, I am definately not qualified material in that case.

I am suggesting that Vi continue to add to the world of Istaria through the use of SKILLED and recruited people who may or may not be paid to do things for Horizons players.

And what they do are monitored closely.

Which is why I said that "Not all the submissions of such a change need be accepted into the Server"

I'm not attempting or intending to belittle anyone. But again, why can't there be specific teams of qualified interns to do things to make all of Istaria as richly decorated as Lesser Aradoth or Mia's Edge and then to help develop more complex quests that may be revisions to old or completely new than JUST a modelling team?

The point I wanted to raise is to have Multiple Teams or Departments or whichever term fits into Vi's business model that do things to better the game. Again, I'm sorry if the original post or follow ups sidetracked my intended suggestion. So if I may change the questions in the first post to
"But will Vi implement a team of world editors to have that aspect added to?" and "But will Vi implement a team of quest editors to have that aspect added to?" Is that more accurate?

[Velea]

Ah, that question I can answer then.

It takes a great deal of time to train someone on how to use the world editing tools. The same end, having players with ideas for quests, can be reached without spending the time required to train someone. Also keep in mind that what you're suggesting is to give players access (if even limited access) to the technology behind the game. Anyone with such access must be under an NDA. But the more people you have under such NDA, and who knows the technology, the greater your risk of having that tech and information put in the wrong hands. It's easy to monitor employees and interns if they are working from a central location, but as you spread your team out over the country (or the world) that monitoring and managing becomes more difficult. You end up having those who do know what they are doing, those who are trained and know Horizons best, not developing, but managing the game.

So again, while your suggestion is valid and good, the same end can be reached by players posting their suggestions and ideas without giving them access to the actual development tools.

Make sense?

[Piira Laxdaela]

the same end can be reached by players posting their suggestions and ideas without giving them access to the actual development tools

200 or more folks each submitting on a regular or semi-regular basis where to put a tree or some resource spawn or a lake with a waterfall and lilypads or a statue is going to be one heck of a job for the limited number of actual Vi world builders to have to sort through compared to (pick a number around 10?) people in the "Department" who have access to a tool for world building and then actually decorating an empty region would have to do.
So allright. Don't give out free access to world building tools. Go through some kind of application and interview and all the business stuff of "hiring" a new employee (including training as needed). But at least give me the benefit of the doubt and... oh wait, you did.

while your suggestion is valid and good

And like I said. I'm not the one qualified to do this. I gave up after a couple of hours of trying to make my (at the time) adjacent plots in Acul look "neat" on my computer. (The view is from the mountain prior to Lairshaping and Adwene's plot is in the top center.)

[LaughingOtter]

There already are such teams, Piira.

It's a matter of time, mostly. I've gotten to the point where I can input a quest into SimDoc pretty quickly, but the process also involves creating the objects used in the quest, or may require setting up special loot tables, or creating new NPCs or world editing. Those take time. I'm still scratching the surface on SimDoc, and I'd guess I've had about as much exposure as a full-time employee would get in around two weeks.

World building is equal parts placing items and defining areas in SimDoc. I haven't even started learning that side of things. The big limitation is, again, time. Time to have someone teach the process, time to practice, time to get something done.

Like I said, what you asked about is being done. As a side note: some folks worry about players being given this kind of access; Well, we're under contract, everything we do can be traced, and none of us have access to player account information or anything on a live server. Any misconduct would be very easy to track down, and I don't doubt that it would be dealt with swiftly. Personally, I don't think it would be worth it. ;-)

[CallakDW]

*Grins very very widely at Vermithraxx* I like this guy... I like this guy a lot!

[Kumu Honua]

It violates both "good taste" as well as forum rules against slander.

Only because I hate the overuse...

Written would be libel. Not slander.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-...-and-libel.htm

[CallakDW]

One thing would be interesting to know, what kind of 3D formats can VI make use of? Say if a participant allready had tools of his own and wanted to make meshes for the game?