What is so Wrong with Camping?

[Casyle]

I am willing to bet that unless you were in thier little clique, that if one asked to join them, then they would be unwilling to let you join said group to particpate in the kill / loot / rewards. But I may be wrong,

Yep, yer wrong I'm not in their guild or apart of their "little clique". I've been nice and courteous to 'em, like I try to be to everyone, so they've accepted me into their SoG hunting group.

I guess I have trouble feeling sorry for people based on, 'They camp all the time!", 'cause I used to hunt the SoG. Sometimes a group would be ready when found, and sometimes I had to get a group ready when found, but we did it. And this was when there were MANY groups after the guy.

If anyone wants the SoG then figure out his timer and get yer butts out there. I seriously doubt CNA is going to try and steal-kill him or bully you out of the area unless you try that kind of garbage.

[Kumu Honua]

I was unguilded. I got joined SoG groups. Sometimes with a group of friends that I merely hunted with, sometimes with a group that went after him specifically with whoever was online. (Thanks Warsong!)

I didn't have any trouble getting into groups for it. Even random groups that I've never really hunted with before.

[Pharcellus]

Yeah, but we were on Order. This appears to be a problem solely endemic to Chaos.

[Kala]

But I hope, it`s true what Casyle said:

" c'mon, anyone can go after the SoG or Valkor. I find this especially ridiculous since I haven't been able to find any other group even wanting to kill them, so it's like people are bitching for bitching's sake."

Well, a Valkor kill not by CNA happened tonight, so it looks like it's possible if you put your mind to it. Of course, I'm probably going to get yelled at for "starting things" again just by mentioning it, but I think the naysayers should know what they're capable of accomplishing now.

[LOVWYRM]

Well, a Valkor kill not by CNA happened tonight, so it looks like it's possible if you put your mind to it.

so this is worth mentioning? - sounds like exception from the rule

[Kala]

so this is worth mentioning? - sounds like exception from the rule

Well, as quoted to me, the rule states this is downright "impossible," so yes, I felt it was worth mentioning. If it happened once (and it's happened other times too, just none I was there for), then it cannot be impossible.

[TelShyia]

well, given the fact now that the marrows drop the valkor pieces, it looks like EVERYONE finally has a fair chance to get those paticular epic weapons...thanks the devs for doing this to put an end to having to 'camp' Valkor alone...now if they would just do it for Sog and Reklar, then if someone wanted to group to do the kill for the drop or just for the fun of doing an epic hunt, it can be done....

[Creme]

well, given the fact now that the marrows drop the valkor pieces, it looks like EVERYONE finally has a fair chance to get those paticular epic weapons...thanks the devs for doing this to put an end to having to 'camp' Valkor alone...now if they would just do it for Sog and Reklar, then if someone wanted to group to do the kill for the drop or just for the fun of doing an epic hunt, it can be done....

That is your opinion, and you have a right to it, however a good number of players have already voiced that epic weapons should drop off epic mobs and not their underlings, upon other things.

This is again players wanting to spend their time on other accomplishments/goals and not being willing to put their time into working at getting items that should be difficult to get. At this point, they might as well stick them on sand beetles, or even better , let the game owners make some real money and sell them for $50-$100 each and make a profit on them. I'm sure there will be players complaining about that as well, as some won't have the money to afford it....just like players complain that they don't have the time (or rather, prefer to spend their time doing other things).

What's next? A button to click at character creation to make a level 100 with 2 mithril coins on it and every rare in the game, oh, and a 100x100 plot to go with it?

[TelShyia]

I beg to differ Creme, it is NOT a matter of time and effort, it is a matter of camping a mob so that NO ONE else can get a group together to go hunt it. If you are there the minute it pops and you kill it, then that is just down right rude in my opinion! I mean after all, like i said, just HOW many swords, bows, staffs you need anyways! After all this time of camping Valkor, you must have a silo full of them! Be considerate and give other players a chance to get the weapons! NOT EVERYONE wants to pay for two accounts and have one of them camped at valkor so they can try and kill him before you and your crew can!
Putting them (the pieces) on the marrows actually gave the other players an equal opportunity to get them, since you refuse to let others try.
As far as the other, I could probably go to ebay AND buy them if I was so stupid as to waste REAL money on a virtual item!
I am sure that some cry-babied to the devs that the marrows were dropping them, and now it appears that they are not, so you can happily go back to camping Valkor and get a bazillion of those things for all I care.
And yes, a button to click to get that would be great! maybe if i complained loud enough in the forums like others do, i could get my way too!

(btw what the heck do i want a 100x100 plot for, i have a lair)

[LaughingOtter]

I am sure that some cry-babied to the devs that the marrows were dropping them, and now it appears that they are not

The Valkor pieces do still drop off of the Marrow Guards, but yes, the rate was reduced. The initial rate was a bit too high (around 15%, as I understand it), and that is the reason the drop rate was adjusted.

It is intended that the marrows should drop the Valkor pieces, but if your experience indicates otherwise, please document the time spent hunting, the number of marrows killed, and the number of Valkor items, if any, that were dropped. Enabling debug logs during your hunting trip would also be helpful. Submit a ticket and include your documentation. All changes of this type are monitored and may be adjusted if needed.

Please don't take this post as disputing that a problem exists; rather, it's a request for your help in understanding the extent of the problem and arriving at a viable solution.

[Creme]

I beg to differ Creme, it is NOT a matter of time and effort, it is a matter of camping a mob so that NO ONE else can get a group together to go hunt it.

Anyone can form a group and camp a mob as it's been stated many times already.

If you are there the minute it pops and you kill it, then that is just down right rude in my opinion!

Mechanically impossible for any mob, at least for us, perhaps you know of some way to do this, I do not. Another group could be there the minute it pops also and could kill it, by your logic.

I mean after all, like i said, just HOW many swords, bows, staffs you need anyways! After all this time of camping Valkor, you must have a silo full of them!

Silo full? Not yet, still working on that <sarcasm>. Frankly, it's not your business of what we have, what we give away and to whom. I could as much exclaim over how players can't even equip this stuff and are rabidly fanatical about collecting them. That's their perogative and I don't sit around and post complaining about that.

Be considerate and give other players a chance to get the weapons! NOT EVERYONE wants to pay for two accounts and have one of them camped at valkor so they can try and kill him before you and your crew can!

The problem is not multiple accounts, multiple computers, multiple players. It's lack of commitment and a CHOICE to spend your time pursuing other activities, whether in game or out. We choose to spend our time doing certain things, as such, it takes away from the time we have available to devote to other things.

Putting them (the pieces) on the marrows actually gave the other players an equal opportunity to get them, since you refuse to let others try.

That's practically laughable. How can I possibly prevent another player from trying for a mob. As much as this is brought up, it's a meaningless argument and only so much hot air and designed to be inflammatory. I cannot prevent ANYONE in the game from doing ANYTHING.

As far as the other, I could probably go to ebay AND buy them if I was so stupid as to waste REAL money on a virtual item!

Really? I wasn't aware that anyone was selling these on ebay, unless you're trying to imply that we're making real life profits off this. I don't think I've seen anything in game on ebay for close to a year, and that was coin in 10 gold chunks. I did hear the names of some players that had taken advantage of this, as well as see some relatively new players that spend extraordinary amounts of coin on commonplace armor/forms/techs which makes me wonder but again, that's their choice to do so and I guess it could have been made (somehow) legitimately or given to them.

I am sure that some cry-babied to the devs that the marrows were dropping them, and now it appears that they are not, so you can happily go back to camping Valkor and get a bazillion of those things for all I care.

Actually, I'd say it was the reverse (as far as the direction of the cry-babying). And thank you for your permission.

(btw what the heck do i want a 100x100 plot for, i have a lair)

Gee, no clue where I got that idea, maybe from one of these many posts from you:

Just how in the heck can you say that with a straight face! as i stated before, and now looks like i have to state again, you have prime real estate. VERY easy for you to say that. but those of us, whom for what ever reason, CHOOSE to be guildless (and you all know my reasoning for that), have WORKED HARD, HARD HARD to be able to get to a point that we can FINALLY get the large plot that we have DREAMED about for YEARS! To allow someone to take that away, even if it is one of our Unity friends, just because they have a 'token' that can outbid ANY amount of silver/gold/mith we can afford to put on a bid is NOT right, NOT fair, regardless of the situtation!
[bold]If there are PLENTY of plots, how about you show me ONE just ONE little ole 100x100 that is open! I'ld be glad to go plunk down what it costs to buy it right now![/bold]

and again

Guaran, that is all well and good for someone who has a 100x100 or even several of them, but Druidess and I have stuck with this game when others have bailed, and been waiting VERY paientently for some of these stagnate OLD accounts to be reclaimed. Now, after SEVERAL YEARS of hard work to get coin, you suggest that someone with a token, who had MAYBE a 25x25 plot on Unity be allowed to 'upgrade' to a 100x100 and outbid me just because of that! Sorry my old friend, but that is simply outrageous! Allowing for that to happen will alienate SEVERAL of the (and yes, now I am) older players on Chaos!

and here

Just how in the heck do you figure that is fair? MY wife and I have been waiting for OVER 3 years for some of the NICER LARGER plots to open up, simply because some old account has gone stagnant or the player has left and the plot still have unfinished structures on them. We started out with a 25x25 little plot that BARELY had room for a t1 GH on it, and have 'found' some larger ones that we, THROUGH VERY HARD WORK aquiring coin, were FINALLY able to purchase! Now we have been here 3 years, and still the nicer larger plots are STILL in the same state they were when we started, but we have the coin to be able to place a bid on these larger plots! Having some body with a token that can 'outbid' us simply because it trumps every coin bid is unfair and not right IMHO.

ps. I agree with silverblaze...to miss out on a 100x100 or to be able to upgrade some of our plots to larger ones, would alienate some of us that have stuck through the good AND bad times, when others jumped ship...

[Creme]

The Valkor pieces do still drop off of the Marrow Guards, but yes, the rate was reduced. The initial rate was a bit too high (around 15%, as I understand it), and that is the reason the drop rate was adjusted.

This information was not disclosed in the patch notes, i.e., a change to marrow guard loot tables. Nor do I believe I've ever seen for ANY mob, the drop percentages on certain items. This is good information, I'd like to see this on all mobs, in that if a player is looking for a drop rate on a particular item that drops on several mobs, he can better evaluate what mob to spend his time killing. Could we get a table disclosing drop rates?

Please don't take this post as disputing that a problem exists; rather, it's a request for your help in understanding the extent of the problem and arriving at a viable solution.

I'd like to point out that you, here, identify that a "problem exists." Are you escalating this as a "problem" because of who the campers are as Valkor has been camped since the day he went into game. Are you speaking with your "developer" hat or is this a personal opinion, based on your in game experiences as a current player on the Chaos shard? As such, is this due to YOUR personal experience because you've tried to camp Valkor on numerous occasions, or based on feedback that you've received from friends in game and/or guildmates?

How much of this information were you privvy to prior to the change in drop rates, as I found it interesting that several of your guildmates and members of another guild were the primary players camping the marrow spawn almost constantly during the high drop rate period, and then have not been present since the drop rates were adjusted.

I would really dislike the thought of "discovery" elements not disclosed in the patch notes to be shared amongst select players on a live shard, and hope that there is care taken to ensure that there is no chance of this occuring.

I would also like to add numerous complaints of Killstealing occurring between individuals trying to kill marrows in competition with the larger "groups" that were out there.

I would also like to point out that until and unless RANDOM is 100% secure, that players be cautious of this "feature", as I understand also that some "forced randoming" was occurring.

[awdz]

I would also like to point out that until and unless RANDOM is 100% secure, that players be cautious of this "feature", as I understand also that some "forced randoming" was occurring.

just curious how forced randoming occurs... if you tell it to use a range, doesn't it list the range used with the result output?

[gopher65]

I thought that the bugs with Random were fixed several months ago? I played with it for half an hour a few months ago and I couldn't get it to do anything out of the ordinary. I also played with the emote thing and couldn't make it convincingly fake a random (and I tried a LOT of permutations of symbols and things).

Is there some other bug that I'm not familiar with?

Of course, the random number generator in HZ isn't exactly random, but nothing in our observable universe is random (chaotic - yes, random - no. True randomness is only possible when entropy reaches maximum, such as in black holes. Even if you were able to find a patch of naked randomness just hanging around, the mere act of observing it would cause it to change into a chaotic state. So you can never see randomness). But it has always seemed to be equally unfair to everyone in my experiences.

[LaughingOtter]

Drop rates and other specifics of game mechanics are privileged information. As such, they are not and will not be disclosed. I mentioned the old drop rate only because it was no longer current information and because I felt it would be useful in helping other players understand why the drop rate had been changed. However, the information was still privileged and, strictly speaking, should not have been disclosed either.

Of course I, along with the other members of the Virtrium team, have access to information on game mechanics. It's part of working on the game. Playing the game is part of making the game better. Forbidding staff members from playing would make it very hard to us to improve the game. Besides, who would want to work for free on a game they're forbidden to play yet required to subscribe to?

It is a Catch-22, both for us and for the other players. For us to work on the game, we must be able to play. For us to be able to play, the other players must trust us. It's all about accountability. Anyone who feels they have grounds to lodge a misconduct complaint against me is welcome to do so via the proper channels - by filing a ticket or sending a PM to the Horizons Community Manager. Please remember that posting accusations is a violation of forum rules.

I don't know if the new drop rate really is a problem or not. However, I do know that TelShyia considers it a problem. That tells me that there is a very good chance other players consider it a problem as well. I posted to address a legitimate concern and, hopefully, provide some understanding of the reasons for the change. I also wanted to let concerned players know how best to express their concerns and document their game play experiences. Such feedback is very valuable in helping the team monitor and respond to changes in game systems.

Amon has already addressed, in another thread, the reasons why changes might not be reflected in the patch notes. I don't have anything to add to his comments, as he covered the issue quite nicely.

Virtrium is a learning experience for all of us, and mistakes are going to happen. That can't be helped. All we ask is a chance to get up, dust ourselves off, and get back to working on making the game a better place for everyone.

[gopher65]

Amon has already addressed, in another thread, the reasons why changes might not be reflected in the patch notes. I don't have anything to add to his comments, as he covered the issue quite nicely.

Except that his comments don't apply to this situation. *Content Additions*, both key words, may or may not be included in patch notes. Whatever, that's fine, and I don't disagree. But this was neither content related nor an addition. It was a change to a specific area of pre-existing gameplay. Changes to gameplay mechanics, such as drop rates, or fixes (which this was), or whatever, *must* be included in patch notes, if for no other reason than so they can be properly tested. Not listing such changes is not only counter-productive to testing but it will be viewed in a negative light as Stealth Nerfing.

You're going to come back and say "drops aren't content?" Harhar, everything in the game is content, so therefore any change is content related, and nothing must be put into the patch notes! Genius are you!

[TelShyia]

oh, and Lauging Otter, I dont consider it a problem, just that MANY MANY players have asked me if I have been killing the marrows, and if they are NO longer dropping the pieces. And if I have noticed this. Like I said, I have been there a few times with my ped and not noticed anything, but this was prior to patch last tuesday. Some were getting pieces at a good rate, then after patch it dropped. Just have to tell them it will take more kills to get. Knowledge is power.

[Velea]

Moderator's Note:

Ok, this thread has far surpassed any usefulness, and gone way beyond the number of posts that need to be deleted and dealt with by a moderator in some manner. Warnings were given and not heeded, and so it's time to lock it.

As has been stated many times before, if you have an issue with the behavior of another player, or group of players, submit a support ticket.