Upcoming Changes for dragons

[Nambroth]

Why do you use silver strike?


- It's cheaper than gold rage yet very effective

- It's one button more to press = more fun



Why would some use silver shield / ward?

- It's cheaper than gold shield yet very effective at non ultra heavy mobs (i.e. pack of 3 wolves silver shield, pack of 5 gold shield).

- It's one button more to press = more fun

I agree with so many others, please don't change SoG in the way proposed. I do use it rarely (I say sheepishly as an ancient with only 2m hoard) but, like the car airbag analogy given before, it is so nice to know that it's there if there is a hairy situation I need to try and escape.

I actually really like the Silver Shield idea above. It costs less (and subsequently does less) than SoG but doesn't remove SoG from the picture in case I need it. Much like silver strike vs. gold rage.

[lightning claw]

Just so people know Amon stated in the Emissary boards that one of the reason for the change was having looked through 4 years of threads not one thread has ever said "OMG SoG is so great I used it every fight." Before this and the other threads my thoughts were no one in there right minds used it as no one beyond the initial "My god this skill burns hoard like mad." when it first came out. So his reason for the change was to improve the skill and make it more useful and used.

Perhaps they should hunt with me on chaos and i will show them a good time lol

In all Honisty ... SoG enables me to hunt better on the stary Islands i can not dream of ever setting claw on there when this NERF hits


Now that i read further i need to apologize to death :O

i would not mind to see a few diffrent tricks in each faction that are not shared
* Knows he will be Flamed for that *

If ya want to take a look at somthing Try Primal Rebirth this happend to me as a corps on the stary Island and as a Rezer it took the hoard cast away but no reanimation i still lay dead or friend still lays dead perhaps take away the bug that we cant rez fellow dragons if they died in the air the animation clearly shows that we fall to the ground apron death so why dose it say when your right over the corps your 54 meters away from target ?

If we get new Faction abilitys form our faction leders
after you peal me off from my roof Screaming at the top of my Lungs I Love you guys !
i will be one happy Dragon i agree with Justa why not add some new tricks to each faction ?

Loar states we kinda lost tuch with one another new tricks can and do arise from long gaps of communication's
Breaches

i have my own ideas but most players dont like so i will keep them silent hear for now

[Sparkinaranthus]

I will reiterate the points that I see as relevant for the benefit of those of my friends that still play.

Shield of Gold did have a large hoard cost, and was seldom used. But when it was used, it was clearly the difference between life and death.

If this ability were changed as specified, it would make it more useful as a general battle skill against lesser mobs (and, by extension, make dragons better mob farmers), but it would be a huge penalty to staying power in tough fights. I could go on about how it is used, but it would be a carbon copy of Guaran's post in this thread, I agree completely with him on everything.

The net effect seems to be made of the same stuff as the changing of the death penalty; more work for garden variety mob farmers (confectioners), more downtime for epic hunters (adventurers).

[Ashuran]

The new version of GS is intended to be a more versitile, less monolithic defensive ability. From the comments expressed, obviously some feel it still needs work. What I'm curious about, though, is the resistance to the change itself. Are there ways the original version of GS could be changed to make it more useful to a broader base of playstyles, without losing the "dragon-ness" of it? Are there ways the new version could be tweaked or improved?

Wait... it has a damage shield effect, but only lasts for 3 hits? Worthless...

These changes will generally make the ability less useful for everyone, rather than more useful. There would be no reason to use it unless you know a huge hit is upcoming. Good for pulling Valkor, maybe...but not much else.

[Ashuran]

Forgot to add... increase it from 3 to 10 hits, and it would be useful. Leave it at the current cost if you think that would make it too powerful.

[Melanth]

SoG has never been a central part of my arsenal, but given that dragons, especially adventurers, have had dozens of nerfs thrown their way already it seems a little pointless to change the ability. Is not an 'i win button' because the hoard cost of using it on a regular basis is astronomical already. Instead it mostly gets used when youre facing a lot of aggro, epic mob or insanely tough named charachter. This sequence of making all pheriphery and high damage output dragon abilities cost hoard seems very stupid and not just a bit unfair- peds are not limited in this way. Melee ward doesnt cost 3s every time they cast it (bad analogy i know) but the fact is that dragons also rely on hoard to give them the marginally better protecton they need to be anywhere near as good as peds in any case, and the advantages we have in game are limited in any case compared to other races who can draw on advantages in other schools. SoG is used as a fallback or failsafe option for when you know or expect to take a massive pounding a ped could actually deal with. it is not an ability that is used on regular mobs and its one of the few ways dragons can actually survive epics and aggro. Nerfing it seems pointless unless dragons are also going to geta helluva lot more healing spells to help deal with aggro or a major increase in our evasion skill, which probably wont happen. The only contingency option is to group, which only opens up more problems. Not everyone likes to group mobs, and whilst grouping is encouraged in game having to wait on everyone else to get ready when you have a lot of time constraints is a major pain. there can also be problems with loot distribution (especially epics, where bad luck and the need for MASSIVE groups already can set you back for sometimes months if you want epic weapons), kill stealing and of course, assembling the group itself when no one can be arsed. a solo element has to remain in the game or a lot of players are just going to jack it in.

There is not getting away from it- the proposed changes are a nerf and geared towards encouraging player interaction against tougher game charachters and risky mobs- a good thing in a way, but not a practical thing. It basically removes the skill element from the game and makes it very mundane. This hasnt been thought through or discussed well enough; the overwealming opinion is against the changes. I just hope the devs learn from the mistakes nd start using a bottom up method of communicating with players, rather then the top down 'this is how its going to be' stratergy viz the deathpoint time alterations.

[Tarot]

I use SoG really often, especially when hunting named mobs for tech ressources. For my way of fighting, and my association about an lunus dragon (fleeing from a mob or hiding behind bipeds is not an option for my brave meara ), the thoughts about changing SoG are a great nerf. Therefore i have the same opinion as many posters before.

When playing on Unity we (a Guild ment for Dragons, with a few bipeds alt) always seek the help of bipeds to handle some questmobs, as bipeds have many many more options to build up their characters (one for example: dragons cant make food to get rid of dps, they need bipeds to make it for them). When changes to the dragon class are upcoming, i cant understand why dragons should be made weaker then now (i spoke with many dragons who thought that in a real pvp battle a dragon will mostly loose against an biped with several adv schools at 100). If you want to polish the class up, give them more possibilities to evolve their characters, like bipeds can. Or when you want to make some painful changes start with bipeds rather then with dragons.

[Ashuran]

Not to mention those of us who do fight epics use SoG to help us tank... so if its defensive effectiveness is this drastically reduced, we may end up losing our usefulness in this regard, making us even LESS interactive. Why bring a dragon along on an epic hunt when they just get constantly squished?

I don't mind hoard use, I don't mind changing SoG, but please think more before you do it, I can't for the life of me see straight around how you think this 3 hit change will make it more useful. It will turn it into something that is not used by anyone, rather than something only half the people will use.

Now if you want to make a second ability (like the proposed silver shield) with the attributes proposed, that will probably keep everyone happy, even if it shares a linked timer with SoG. If it can only take 3 hits I am still unlikely to use it, however. Perhaps this lesser version could even be made available to hatchlings to learn.

[Galdethriel]

I agree that GS is much better off remaining the way it is, and I must admit that unlike most, I think, I use it often, in normal fights of enemies some levels above myself. (Yes, Galde's defence is that bad. XD ) While the whole reflecting of damage and reduced hoard cost is undoubtedly a useful feature, it's the three hit limit that irks me. Three hits isn't going to protect Galde from the lots of mobs mages are supposedly good at facing off against. :/

1,
2,
3,
dead.

In all honesty, I'd prefer Shield of Gold to be left as something I can use to make up for my poor defence: I'd rather just combine GS and Spiked scales and get any benefit the new "improved" gold shield would give, with a much better chance of survival.

I'd also say the current version of GS is more versitile anyway; it'll guard you from uber-attacks and it'll guard you from being whittled down by multiple mobs. Will the proposed new version protect you from uber-attacks? Nope, sorry, many attacks come in bursts greater than three. You're dead. Will it protect you from being whittled down? Nope, it only lasts three hits. You're dead.

I'd say just leave it as it is, a useful shield. Because, you know, I'd prefer my best shield be a shield, not an attack. If I wanted to hurt the mob, I'd use spiked scales or gold rage or something. And the hoard price--I'd rather pay a lot of hoard to win the battle, get the XP, get the loot, and a sense of victory. And I'd rather not save the hoard but die, wait 24 hours or so for the death point to wear off while missing out on XP and loot while also becoming frustrated because my death points are building up, which is annoying.

I haven't even began to train on the Withered Aegis yet, and I've seen how they like to group up and spam attacks. The new version of GS won't stand a chance against that either.

It's not true when they say the best defence is a good offence.

[Galdethriel]

((Oh and sorry for being off-topic and double posting, but Ashuran I think you're sig picture is great. ))

[Ashuran]

Thank you Galdethriel, both for the compliment on my sig and for saying EXACTLY what I meant in a much more detailed and eloquent manner.

[Arokh]

Pretty much everything i say at this point will be repeating someone else so i am sorry for that but hey! one more for the team no? I don't much care for the having breaths both being open to dragons because i rather like having differences between lunus and helain...would like to see more but eh...i can live with it...but you change SoG and i'll come hunt ya down and punch ya in the face well maybe not...but i rather you didn't..i just used it before i posted...i tend to use it as soon as i am able to again and i like it the way it is...i also think that there are other things that could be fixed or have new content added that would make a lot more people happier then changing something that there's nothing wrong with.

[Drevar]

A bit late to the party but here goes.

As a full power/primal Helian my dragon's "I win" button is not Shield of Gold, but Spiked Scales (1500 power really pumps it up). Shield of Gold is my "I managed to live" button. I have to be able to stand and take a lot of damage since my casting delay is bordering on the geologic scale and my main damage output relies on me getting hit.

The cost of the shield is no concern. I got over the hoarding hoard mentality a long time ago. I can kill stuff and replace hoard 3-4 times faster by actually spending it in the first place. Its the choice of taking another 40-50 seconds primebolting in slo-mo or hitting my Gold Rage and hoping for at least 2 hits to finish the mob off, even with my utterly crap TnC and Strength. If I could alpha strike like a warrior dragon *cough*Gold Burst*cough* then it wouldn't be as big a deal. I could shift tactics to full offense.

Drev

[Theolaerynn]

No skills are being taken away from Dragons. But Dragons and Hoard are tied hand-in-hand. You will always have some abilities/spells that do not cost hoard, but you will have others that do.

Having more choices, more decisions to make, is a good thing and creates interactivity.

What you are actually doing is removing choices for those of us who don't like to burn hoard. In other words, you are continuing the original sin of the devs of old in that you are making changes for changes sake, and not making changes that enhance the game. Forcing BoF and BoI to use hoard benefits no one.

Can you really continue to pigeon hole us and stuff us into a role where we are all forced to play our Dragons exactly the same, and not have us get bored and move on? Honestly, that is where I have been for a very long time now due to changes like this. I still pay because I believe in Horizons, but I do not play anymore. I keep hoping that it will one day emerge fully from the ashes, and I can't help but feel you guys are the only ones capable of doing just that.

But you have to lay off the changes that do not enhance game play!

I don't want a game that is a job. I don't want to farm for hoard simply so that I can participate in fights I do want to participate in. I don't want to rely on bi-peds for DP reduction because the timers are ridiculous otherwise. Ok, truth be told I hate the 'lets make confectioners feel useful at the expense of everyone else' initiative anyway, but whatever.

Every change made that hurts game play without a rational explanation just makes me that much less concerned about letting my subscription die. That is not a threat, please don't read it that way. One sub isn't going to make a difference one way or the other. I am simply giving you my take on things, and what my motives are.

I want to play, I miss my Dragon. On the rare occasion where I do actually log in, though, I just fly him around for a few minutes and then log out. There is nothing enjoyable for me to do right now, and the things I do enjoy are being made worse. That becomes easy math.

[Hraefn]

I don't want a game that is a job. I don't want to farm for hoard simply so that I can participate in fights I do want to participate in. I don't want to rely on bi-peds for DP reduction because the timers are ridiculous otherwise. Ok, truth be told I hate the 'lets make confectioners feel useful at the expense of everyone else' initiative anyway, but whatever.

Best paragraph I've come across so far. I couldn't agree more.

I've leveled a personal confectioner to 100 already, so I can't complain about how difficult it is for me to get food now (It's just a matter of debating whether or not it's worth it to gather all those resources or just wait off the point because I'm lazy ). But, where grinding for money wasn't usually a problem - unless you see that perfect plot for sale, or that single triple teched primal vengeance scale on the connie (I'm gunna miss being able to have those made D and you were just a few silver short - silver was starting to look pretty precious when I was spending 100 silver for a few meals.

I know that's not exactly the point of this thread, but I'm working to it.

Now that coin has some value, it's going to become one of those mindless farming chores if the trend keeps going the way it is. Let's not make hoard something else we dragons need farm.

Since L.O. calmed my worry of hoard drop reduction, I'm not so worried over it. Still, working the beetles for 30 minutes in itself can get irritating. Especially when, someone like myself, can't focus on grinding to save her life. xD

Either way. I'm all for brand new abilities and uber spells -hint hint-

[Steele]

We've seen a few folks come out in favor of adding an additional ability to Dragon adventurers; one which would be a lower-cost, lower defensive value ability to compliment the higher-cost, higher defensive value ability "Shield of Gold". This suggested ability has taken the pet name "Shield of Silver" in discussion, which makes sense since it would be a more commonly used, every-day type ability – similar, in that way, to the perceived relationship between Silver Strike versus Gold Rage.

My apologies to LO for quoting something weeks-old; this isn't directed at you personally:

What I'm curious about, though, is the resistance to the change itself.

Hesitantly holding up a mirror, here... why does there seem to be Virtrium resistance to adding an additional ability based on a pretty reasonable suggestion? Consider for a moment:

The only real comment specifically addressing the “Shield of Silver� suggestion (which seems to have been gaining player-backed momentum since May 22nd) was "...why keep this ability AND another one that doubles up on the use […]?"

That was followed up by a post saying Shield of Gold was just being messed around with on Genesis, no change was imminent, etc.

I'm not being accusatory, I'm not trying to make anyone look bad, and I'm not trying to make waves. I just want to make sure it's adequately communicated (since faulty communication has been a recurring theme through this thread) that since those have been the only reactions, it might be perceived by some as dismissive of the suggestion - which wouldn’t entirely be fair if a reasonable, constructive dialogue is the point of the discussion.

[Romirez]

ok, won't beat a dead horse. change: BAD. new ability: GOOD.


sign me up wiht the 'against Gold shield being changed, and new ability added' crowd.

[Casyle]

There's even the definite danger that if you gloat about how good something is, it's lined up for a soon nerf.

Well said!!

Many MMORPG lovers have learned that over the years. Class A has this wonderful ability, X people gloat/cheer about it in a thread, Dev sees the thread then nerfhammers the ability.

For example, in Asheron's Call 2 Lugian Duelwielders could do absolutely insane damage with an ability I've forgotten the name of. A couple posters posted screenshots of the damage they did, bragging, and guess what? It was nerfed within' 3 patches.

I've seen this happen in Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, and Asheron's Call 2. We've learned not to gush about the abilities that we love on forums.

Ooh, and I'm definitely against the proposed changes, though I've heard they aren't going to happen now. I am, however, all for the idea of Shield of Silver.

More options = more fun!

[Favoran]

We've learned not to gush about the abilities that we love on forums.

I hate feeling like you have to watch what you say for fear of loosing something. XD

Huh... I kind of thought this thread was going to quietly fade away until I started seeing it posted in some more. o.O

[Steele]

I hate feeling like you have to watch what you say for fear of loosing something. XD

Well, yeah... it's kinda unfortunate and certainly no fault of VI's.

It just kinda sucks that so many MMO players have been "trained" by stereotypically-corporate game companies to hide and hoard what they enjoy and what they feel works well. Of course, many MMO players have also been similarly "trained" that whining incessanty drive change. *sigh*

I like to think that HZ/Istaria has overall been an exception to that, and even if you think I'm wrong please don't disprove me... I like my little utopia.