Upcoming Changes for dragons

[Vahrokh]

Everyone's talking about Giant Ice Beetles dropping tons of hoardables. What level are they? Because if you need to be high-level to fight them, you've totally missed the point. I think far too many level-100 Ancient dragons are weighing in on this after looking at their own hoard levels - those at lower levels have far less hoard to put into things like Shield of Gold. 250k to take the RoP is still an actual target to be reached rather than something you get to at about the right level, even with the high hoard value items introduced since then.

I am ancient, with above cap hoard... and still I can see how younger dragons have it harder.

You basically got two games:


1) 2004 established players, good guild, lots of good gear and epics, maxed in everything, joining groups for epic bosses. Often with high level, non dragon main or friends, meeting them at Bristugo and handing them 50k hoard gotten by trophy farming (2300 wolves killed by my guild mate for his Xth level 100 WILL result in lots of hoard dropped).

Those, with the exception of me, are fine and find everything easy. They also spend hours and hours in game.


2) Newer or more roleplay oriented players, or players who can't spend hours and hours a day in game, usually they have a less than 100 character, with less than optimal gear, nowhere near hoard cap (it's normal to see 5M hoard level 100 dragons), no epics, no "imba" old techs scales / gear, no Boar Mask.

Those won't find the game *that* easy. Those will not receive daily 50k hoard gifts off guildies. Those will "ding" a new tier and will look around for new gear. "20 of this, 20 of that" and then the immancable Withered Aegis drops. Since they did not exploit 100g in the past, nor pawned truckloads of T5 materials when it gave lots of money, nor have THE now gone recipe to ask 100s per piece made, they will have to skip Nadia and will have quite of an hard time grinding those pack friendly veteran WA that will permastun and own them.
Those won't come on the forums and dismissively post how easy the game, or hoard, or grinding is.

I feel these guys who unlike us are newer or "poorer" should still be considered in game balance. After all, Istaria has to survive on a turn over of newer players, the 2004ers won't play & pay forever.

Edit: Hmm, I hadn't considered the current SoG in terms of end-game content. Ok, then this is a potentially major loss of survivability.

This.

[LOVWYRM]

pls, pls leave SoG the way it is

*agrees to what is said*

[Ahael]

Shield of Gold is having it's duration reduced and a damage shield component added.

I am not thrilled with this change.

We already have a damage shield, but very very few panic true buttons. Or tanking abilities. I *need* all survivability I can get.

Newer or more roleplay oriented players, or players who can't spend hours and hours a day in game, usually they have a less than 100 character, with less than optimal gear, nowhere near hoard cap (it's normal to see 5M hoard level 100 dragons), no epics, no "imba" old techs scales / gear, no Boar Mask.

And about what Vahrokh said: I have about 2.1 million hoard. Lvl 100, adult currently. And this is my only lvl 100 character. I usually spend as much hoard that I gain.

Rework Spiked Scales instead. Leave Shield of G. as it is, or tweak it a little (duration, cd, hoard cost perhaps?).

[Steelclaw]

What I'm curious about, though, is the resistance to the change itself. Are there ways the original version of GS could be changed to make it more useful to a broader base of playstyles, without losing the "dragon-ness" of it? Are there ways the new version could be tweaked or improved?

I think the resistance to the change itself is because the new version no longer fulfills one of the main uses for GS. (I'd rather call it GS than SoG to avoid confusion with the epic mob.) That is, death-point mitigation in the event of too many "adds" (which is hopefully an exceptional event). The proposed 3-hit counter prevents the new GS from being useful in this application.

There's a second application -- standard preparation to absorb a powerful attack that would otherwise be a one-short (or close to it). The 3-hit counter doesn't affect this situation as much, since the massive one-shotting attack is usually within the first 3 attacks.

So, to your question about changing the old GS to make it more useful:
1) Reduce the hv:damage-absorbed ratio.
2) Reduce the recycle timer.

As for the new version:
1) Get rid of the hit counter. *has flashbacks to 1990s web pages*
2) Consider a "damage budget" approach. No timer, no hit counter, just "Reduces damage by 55%. Absorbs a total of 4500 incoming damage, maximum 500 per hit". Hoard cost would be paid up front upon activation.
3) More later... when I'm not passing out.

[Tcei]

It appears that Ice beetles are lvl 50+

I fit Vah's second description to a T, I started in 2006 litteraly 2 weeks before the EI buyout *winces*, I didnt get above 10k horde untill just before I started RoP. The guild I joined I rarely if ever saw anyone on so I didnt exactly get horde from them everyday. I also dont always have loads and loads of time to play, Im lucky to play 3 hours every few days. I honestly believe the only reason why I even got the other 240~k horde as a gift from friends was because we all believed the server was only hours away from being shut down. While the amount of horde did start to improve after 30 I only just bearly kept above the recomended min for my level.

Now I've started over from scratch on a different server where I dont know anyone, my little hatchling is currently sitting ruffly 6k under where she should be for her level. I honestly feel that all horde using abilities planned (except for Silver Strike and Gold rage) shouldn't cost horde untill at least the level 20(Teir2) version. Perferably untill 30ish Imho.
Things arent very easy as a low level hatchling, doubly so if half or more of the abilities we get cost horde.

[rizo/nawkia]

the first 20 levels are rather easy to level up an so when leveling so fast getting hoard is slow
-fast levels =not so many mobs killed
and as ya level it takes longer and longer to level so you kill more mobs and get moree hoard, i do think thats how its sposed to work

[Raptress]

I don't have now and have never had a level 100 or Ancient dragon, despite how long I've been playing. In fact, I totally restarted not two weeks ago, transferring only items that I knew I'd want to hold onto, like my Harvest Masks.

That said, I never used Gold Shield back when I had access to it because of the hoard cost and because of my aversion to burning hoard. But I can definitely understand the panic button concept and today I would probably use this ability as such. There are things dragons simply would not be able to do without this ability, as said by the more knowledgeable posters before. In essence, this is in fact a huge nerf to the class.

This shouldn't be about how often this ability gets used, but how valuable the utility is when it -is- used.

Also, just to get in my two coppers on Drain Strike: I don't mind it having a hoard cost. In fact, concept-wise, I'm actually liking us dragons actually having a real use for hoard (note: I'm a caster and pretty much never use SS and GR), though I generally won't be using Drain Strike anyway as it's still tied to T&C. The thing about hoard cost though, is that that move better be either a panic button or incredibly useful for me to use the hoard on it. The new Drain Strike isn't either of these.

Gold Shield though.. major panic button potential, if not the only one available especially to casters (as Gold Rage would likely be a panic button to me if I were T&C spec). If you want to give us another damage shield, fine, but don't turn a useful ability into something we already have in Spiked Scales. If you want to make a new replacement for Gold Shield, fine, but this change is not replacing the old one but taking it away to give us more of what we already had.

Remember, it's about utility, not how often it gets used.

[Guaran]

How about leaving the existing Shield of Gold as is, and adding the new idea as say "Shield of Silver"

I agree with this:

...But gold shield is high in the care meter, it's a life and group saver now, and will become just some crappy "lol I AoE farm golems faster" later whilst losing all the tactical value it has today....

I am a tactical fighting Dragon. I know my characters abilities and limits, and when to use them. I actually use Shield of Gold less than many on here, but there are times when I need it.

Perhaps the new ability, Shield of Silver (or Mithril or Adamantium or whatever), can totally absorb 3 incoming hits, while reflecting 100% of the damage back. This would make it similiar to Spirit Walk or Phoenix Shield, which also have tactical uses at appropriate times. To me, this would be an ability I can think of use for.. I will be excited to try it out

But the existing Shield of gold doesn't have to be changed to add this.

[Justa Mirage]

I was just about to suggest what Guaran did.... why change... ADD!

Make a damage type shield that takes 3 hits and it's gone. Make it linked to SG so you can't stack them.

(Oh... I am one of those ancient dragons with 4.3M hoard) so every hoard ability is used sparingly.

*maybe I should get off my lazy butt and go hoard gathering*

[Ahael]

How about leaving the existing Shield of Gold as is, and adding the new idea as say "Shield of Silver"
... can totally absorb 3 incoming hits, while reflecting 100% of the damage back. This would make it similiar to Spirit Walk or Phoenix Shield, which also have tactical uses at appropriate times. ...

But the existing Shield of gold doesn't have to be changed to add this.

Bravo! More options, more fun! I agree with this 200%!

It's actually harder to fight on Chaos than on Unity. Latency is the main culprit. I've already needed Shield of G. many times because of lag. Also, I need it currently to be even able to kill certain mobs at all.

I wasn't always this sceptical, but I've been thinking about the change. Now, as I see it, what has been proposed would be an outright nerf... hitting me between the eyes like a two-by-four.

[Nisse]

I've been with horizons for quite some time. Level 100 ancient. And I've never maxed out my hoard. Ever. Closest it's been (I think, not sure) is 15 million. And when I fight, esp being ancient with drain strike, gold rage, silver strike, and the ancient breath all already using hoard, I can literally watch that 15 mil drop as I fight. Even with 'hoard is so easy to get'. I struggle to keep it at the 15 mil. Struggle to get it up. I do not know how anyone does it. Hoard does not drop very well for me somehow. Yes, I have hunted all sorts of mobs. Killed the pygmies out of Harro til my brain melted. And I do not use gold shield.
Etc, etc.
I suppose a part of the problem with me is that I do not have the teched scales either. Never got them teched, not having enough $. I have something like Tier III techs.

Meh.

With these new changes and the possibility of being able to spit either lightning or ice depending on my mood, I was considering returning. (eventually, I want to have the fund$ to get a smashing machine first)
It does not look like fun anymore to me.

Adding my 2c to say bad idea, don't do it. Please.

Defactioning the breaths: ok

Adding more hoard burn: Bad.

[Favoran]

why change... ADD!

I support this idea 110%. Besides, we dragons could certainly use more abilities. I like the thought of keeping the current abilities as they are and adding hoard-burning versions that are stronger. That way, you could still fight effectively without having to keep an eye on your hoard.

Dragons use hoard. They shouldn't depend on it.

[Pharcellus]

What I'm curious about, though, is the resistance to the change itself. Are there ways the original version of GS could be changed to make it more useful to a broader base of playstyles, without losing the "dragon-ness" of it? Are there ways the new version could be tweaked or improved?

Maybe these kinds of questions are better asked of players before such sweeping changes are made. Ya know, kind of the "informed adjustment" approach, rather than something shot from the hip?

Just a suggestion, though.

As for Shield of Gold, the only reason I rarely used it was because of the extremely high hoard burn for what it returned. It was not uncommon to see 25,000-50,000 plus hoard burned with one use with a boss. I never use it except in rare emergency cases (and often, forget to use it even then) outside of bosses.

Lowering the hoard cost is a good thing. Changing it into an expensive Spiked Scales, combined with a Foresight-type defense, is a bit short-sighted. If you want Dragons to have those abilities, fine; add them as new abilities. However, try not to change the existing abilities too radically, as they do have their uses, even if not everyone uses them all the time or for the same reasons. Minor adjustments are cool, too, but this is a rather major shift in the way an ability works.

[Vahrokh]

A more "cold minded", analythical answer:

What I'm curious about, though, is the resistance to the change itself.

1) A sweeping change involving cargo disks in a no life threatening situation has been polled about. Not having had a similar procedure for a sweeping and rarer but "life or death" other feature would create a resistance.

2) The sweeping change involving cargo disks resulted in a buff I don't recall having read request threads about. But hey, a buff is a buff.
The sweeping change involving GS would result in a nerf I don't recall having read request threads about. And ouch it hurts.

Are there ways the original version of GS could be changed to make it more useful to a broader base of playstyles, without losing the "dragon-ness" of it?

This pulls up a series of considerations, both roleplay and "merely game play" related.

Gold Shield, as the name suggests, is going to cost a bunch (the current version indeed fullfills the name), is going to be also a shield.
Putting the two words together, the idea is of a costly shield, which in players' minds translates in something important to save their life.

This translation in "something important to save their life" is well enhanced and appreciated because if you remove gold shield, dragons are basically decent glass cannons. "Mages".
Pack a punch, yes. Healing, till recently, could barely undo one DoT, nor common knowledge assigns dragons an "healbot" lore.
Common lore, instead, assigns dragons an "hard to crack nut" role.
The Istaria dragon succeeds at the "pack a punch" common lore, has some weak-ish healing as per common lore, totally fails as "hard to crack nut" common lore.

Gold Shield is the "patch" to allow for a dragon to be "like the common lore" at great expense and short duration. It's accepted even by non dragons, because they see the dragons not "unfairly" too much armored by default, yet they can be much armored for a great tradeoff and short time, something "accepted" like some other long "overpowered" cooldowns are.

An objection has been made: it's not used a lot.

But... do you use your car airbags a lot? I hope not!
Are those airbags precious and life saving? Sure!
Do they cost a lot? Yeah, 5-600 euros here (1000+ USD) a "pop".

So, as you see, it's something really of value for us.

Tell your car customers that hey, their airbags are too little used, so you are going to remove them and add a shiny cigar ligther instead. Reactions?


Tactical value:

- "Oh crap" button, when you suddenly have repops in your face.

- Empowered defense against nameds "avalanche of ore" and other 3 shotting abilities. We have nothing against this once without gold shield.

- Grouped mobs pull. 5 linked wolves. You pull. Dragons got NO cooldown defense skills. You get devastated by their "strikes". With shield, you can outlive the initial onslaught. 3 hits? NO WAY.

- Grouped magic damage and stun mobs, i.e. veteran ghosts / zombies / skeletons or blights. You pull. Dragons got NO specific wards (we got some general non primal wards but those mobs well overcome them). You get permastunned, rooted, owned. With shield you can try kill the archer, the blaster, survive the initial melee strikes. Then you are on your own, but at least you have a chance.

- Tactical group defense at epic monsters. Yesterday we have done the dragon boss some times, when I got aggro (even with healer), the shield = I stay alive. Given our "spammed gold rage" aggro, it's completely possible to draw aggro (not counting our "taunt" makes us a sort of group tank, doesn't it?).


Tactical disadvantage at the new shield:

- Not "oh crap" at all. Mobs repop. Your shield stops 3 attacks off 1 mob. The other 3-4 mobs own you hard.

- ZERO defense at nameds that attack you (one of the most common gold shield uses). You'd have to pull a mob and time the 3 adsorbed hits with the mob "special". Lag? You are owned. Not cookie cutter mob with totally predictable special hit? You get owned. 1 other mob adds? You get owned.

- Grouped mobs pull. 5 linked wolves. You pull. You adsorb 1 wolf strike, you are devastated by the other 4.

- Grouped magic damage and stuns mobs. Your shield adsorbs 1 arrow shot and 1 of the melee mob strikes of X. You quickly get dispatched. But hey, *1* of the mobs, the melee mob, got 1000 reflected damage! So effective. Not.

- Epic monster. You get aggro. You survive 3 hits, you die.

Are there ways the new version could be tweaked or improved?

Yes, and it has been done "well" in the past.

Consider Gold Rage and Silver Strike.

Gold = more expensive, to use with care. Rage = high damage.
Silver = less expensive, can spam on cooldown. Strike = medium damage.


Gold Shield and Silver Ward.

Gold = more expensive, to use with care. Shield = high adsorbtion.
Silver = less expensive, to use "on cooldown". Ward = low / medium adsorbtion.

Here you go. Something the players see as *more* added to the game.
Something with an easily understood name and "function".
Something at this point you can tweak to reflective shield, for 3 hits or whatever.

All happy, you entice people at burning hoard (if the "ward" is something useful) and yet they have their "oh crap" dusty but loved button faithfully sitting there, ready for use.

I personally could look after an hoard reflective shield for pack mobs grinding. Gold Shield tends to be used rarely because of the cost, and those mobs are not _that_ deadly to have people want to risk using it.
Still, a 30% value shield (basically we need a shield that works on against multiple focused attacks) would be nice, even if it costed hoard.

[Ahael]

This debate so reminds me of my paladin in another MMO...

That pally has a defensive ability called Divine Shield. Lasts 12sec, and during it, the paladin is 100% immune against damage. 5min cd. It was very useful in PVP. But not anymore. The devs nerfed it. D.S. can now be dispelled by another class. The real letdown? While nerfing already relatively weak character class in PVP, they gave nothing in return. Along with other changes (ehm nerfs), paladin survivability is a joke nowadays in PVP. Having just one real "oh crap" button was bad enough already... but nerfing the only one even worse thing. Sound familiar?

If Shield of Gold gets turned into another damage shield, my last and only line of defense against impeding death is gone.

All Istarian melee characters need more tools to tank things effectively, not just us dragons! Basically we need to be able to a) SURVIVE, b) keep aggro. Dead tanks do not keep aggro. Silly if they died because they lack emergency button(s). We already lack real threat buttons... other than just try to spam damage.

[Vahrokh]

Ahael starts casting divin... ehm gold shield
Veteran Saris priest starts casting mass dispell


Ahael has WoW nightmares.

*hides*

[AmonGwareth]

If Shield of Gold gets turned into another damage shield, my last and only line of defense against impeding death is gone.

Given that the proposed change to SoG did not remove the hoard drain or damage mitigation, only added an equal dealing of damage to the mob... how is that removing your last line of defense?

[cauri_order]

Given that the proposed change to SoG did not remove the hoard drain or damage mitigation, only added an equal dealing of damage to the mob... how is that removing your last line of defense?

Quoted from Laughing Otter "GS will still mitigate damage, but at half the previous cost (1.5 hoard per point). It will also return 150% of damage done to the attacker as primal damage. It will last for three hits or sixty seconds, and has a 90 second recycle."

You are considering implementing a 3 hit cap or 60 second duration. Even with the hoard cost reduction, reduction in cooldown it is still a huge nerf to dragon survivability.

If you want to add a new version - do as another post suggested. "Shield of Silver - add your 3 hit cap/60 second duration, reduce the amount of damage it absorbs and leave Shield of Gold alone.

[Deth]

Just so people know Amon stated in the Emissary boards that one of the reason for the change was having looked through 4 years of threads not one thread has ever said "OMG SoG is so great I used it every fight." Before this and the other threads my thoughts were no one in there right minds used it as no one beyond the initial "My god this skill burns hoard like mad." when it first came out. So his reason for the change was to improve the skill and make it more useful and used.

[Antonath]

I used to come down firmly on the side of "Shield of Gold is useless", but having read all the recent comments about it, I've decided it's like insurance - most of the time everyone just complains about how much it costs. You're very glad to have it there when you need it, but you never boast about it to your friends. That's why in 4 years, no-one's come out in favor of it.