Stand Against Darkness shouldn't stack with Boar's Rage

[gopher65]

Ranged weapons work off Strength and Dex Guaran, so PV works on bows/crossbows too. Course, given the small damage that all ranged weapon mobs do (even I only get hit for small double digits, and I don't have a huge amount of armour), it's not as useful against them as it could be, but it does work.

[Creme]

one-shot kill Valkor

Really? Who and how, because this is a gross overexaggeration and unless it's a dev who's pumped up to extreme crazy stats, can't be done.

Not sure why there's so much hysteria over something that can't and hasn't ever happened.

Re: 1 dragon with a trip teched vengeance scale. Yes, this may only go off with some degree of frequency. However, I've seen it process rarely to extremely frequently during a single fight. Now, factor in 4-6 dragons with trip teched vengeance scales (or eminence or whatever) and you'll get a mob that's useless for 90% of the fight.

Couple that with the rather large increase in GR damage thanks to the recent dragon love, and you get most mobs with 1 shot kills if all 3 GRs hit, or mobs that go down in less than 3 seconds (GR + SS).

Take a longer lasting fight, with trip teched PV scales with numerous dragons and the mobs go down almost laughingly easily.

Re: boar's rage + beserker's rage. These probably don't stack because they are very similar. I'd check the cool down to see what the timers are. If they can be used within a relatively short period of time, then it's sounds more than fair as is.

One could also easily argue that any player's gear enabling them to simultaneously take down 3 named T5/T6 bosses should NEVER be allowed and that it too, is a gross maximizing of specific characteristics to be able to do so and so caps should be implemented on how high resistances/wards should get.

[GalemThawn]

Really? Who and how, because this is a gross overexaggeration and unless it's a dev who's pumped up to extreme crazy stats, can't be done.

No, no. I'm purposefully overexaggerating to show that even IF someone had that power, it does not directly affect me playing my game.

[Vahrokh]

the final thing i want to say about this is that ''epic-stacking'' (multiclassing)

No, the stacking is not about BHM nor multiclassing, but using all of this plus potions etc. stacked together to achieve a result X.

Now, if X is "sane", ok, and all of the factors listed taken one by one are indeed ok.

If X is so higher than no other setup (including other non dragon classes combos, forget dragons for a second) can even come close, then X is too overpowered and those who multiclassed another combination of classes will feel ripped off.

Personally, whether I am flamed or not, see this as another subtle way of keeping the ped v. dragon battle going.

Actually it's ped v ped. Dragons are taken "in" just as excuse for "if dragons had 3 teched scales then we are entitled to...".

As for playing my alt, I'd love to. At the time I provided him with BHM, crystals, shoulder cow (the real overpower source ) and tools, but for now I have to build a plot first.

However, I've seen it process rarely to extremely frequently during a single fight.

"Extremely frequently" is not a valid assertion. The stuff got a fixed proc rate to define its performance. Statistics will let you see it "Extremely frequently" when you "pay attention" but then it'll have a period where it won't go off at all so that the average is the nominal value.

Now, factor in 4-6 dragons with trip teched vengeance scales (or eminence or whatever) and you'll get a mob that's useless for 90% of the fight.

I have killed those "mobs" with as many as 8 dragons, the mob was all but useless for 90% of the fight.

You are basically stating that the scale procs like 50% of the time and most dragons have it. Both are false. Most dragons don't even know those techs existed before all the news about the nerf, of those who knew, only a part have it. In 2-3 weeks I made 2 scales not 500, one was tier 3.

Couple that with the rather large increase in GR damage thanks to the recent dragon love

I hit ravage for 8 damage more not 800. I doubt gold rage multiplied "by large" as well.

Take a longer lasting fight, with trip teched PV scales with numerous dragons and the mobs go down almost laughingly easily.

With 8 dragons and 2 healers and spamming hoard moves it took several minutes. It's still more than two guys duoing it in below a minute. If several minutes is laughingly easily, what is the adjective for below a minute?

[Creme]

Total damage is going to largely be based on strength (you can throw in to a lesser degree T&C).

Pump strength high enough and you'll get some more than robust gold rage damage numbers.

If you calculate the damage on a slightly above average gold rage (not an all-strength dragon AND not with the ancient boost to strength) as 1000k damage per hit and figure on averaging 2700/Gold Rage (instead of 3k to allow for misses), that's a net of 216K damage in 20 minutes. Dragons more geared to top end damage will do more than this.

Compare that to the damage on a BHM, on an average player and you'll get FAR less damage over a 20 minute period.

So, what you are saying is if you stick all the allowed points into Stre/weap skill AND take potions AND design gear to optimize damage AND use buffs that the player is somehow being "unfair" to other players?

Why is it "wrong" to maximize a certain attribute? While leveling, I may stick most of my points into defensive attributes (i.e., evasion, health).

Regarding the very frequently on the vengeance processing. Yes, you are correct, some fights it may not processes at all; which is why I said it *ranges* from rarely to very frequently. That it may "average" something is irrelevant, going from a single fight, my statement holds true, it might process VERY frequently in that single fight. The next fight it might not process at all. But what you are doing is taking an example of something that *might* happen in a blue moon, and applying it as though it is an every day, every single occurrence.

We should all know by this time that the way % fall out in this game is not like things working in a vacuum where the results are perfectly precise all the time.

[Pharcellus]

If you calculate the damage on a slightly above average gold rage (not an all-strength dragon AND not with the ancient boost to strength) as 1000k damage per hit and figure on averaging 2700/Gold Rage (instead of 3k to allow for misses), that's a net of 216K damage in 20 minutes. Dragons more geared to top end damage will do more than this.

Incorrect. I am an "average gold rage" Dragon, and as an example, I do approximately 430hp per hit (figured with 4% misses from 450hp per hit) average to *Marble Boulder Golems*. Well less than half the numbers you claim. Even with a Misty Topaz in my claw, the most I get on them is around 800hp per hit. If I stack myself with everything I can, I *might* break 1000hp *WHEN Misty Topaz procs*, but otherwise, I can get around 500hp per strike normally against the same mobs. So, we're talking around 100k in 20 minutes, against L85-89 mobs. Start throwing in real 90-100 mobs, and those damage numbers go down significantly.

[Creme]

WA mobs on the satyr islands, anything from blights to vexes to kwellens to abominations, including all the various undead. Lowest was in the high 800s, highest was over 1200 (I wasn't paying close attention to which mobs took the most damage).

I believe that most golems have high slash resist.

[Pharcellus]

Results from my logs on the Satyr Islands show:

1) Miss/Dodge/Block/Parry rates rise dramatically from 4% vs marble golems to a range of 25-80%, averaging around 40%.
2) Low armor classes of undead the average base damage goes up towards 550hp per strike.
3) High armor classes of undead the average base damage goes down to around 300hp per strike.
4) Blue/Red Vexators I get around 550hp per strike on average, and about 40% miss rate.
5) Abominations about 450hp average.
6) Aegrors in the 400hp range average.

Apparently, the Satyr Island mobs also have high slash resistance, energy resistance, fire resistance, cold, resistance, etc. Doesn't seem to matter a whole lot.

[Creme]

Yes, I tested damage with flame attack & without on marble boulder golems. There wasn't a massive disparity in the damages, but the damage numbers I was getting were a lot higher than what you were doing.

[05/23/08 17:05:34] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 824 flame damage.
[05/23/08 17:05:34] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 979 flame damage.
[05/23/08 17:05:34] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 797 flame damage.
[05/23/08 17:05:34] Marble Boulder Golem has been killed.
[05/23/08 17:07:13] You hit Marble Golem with Gold Rage VII for 684 flame damage.
[05/23/08 17:07:13] You hit Marble Golem with Gold Rage VII for 1044 flame damage.
[05/23/08 17:07:13] You hit Marble Golem with Gold Rage VII for 1104 flame damage.
[05/23/08 17:07:13] Marble Golem has been killed.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 751 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 959 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 798 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] Marble Boulder Golem has been killed.
[05/23/08 17:07:44] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 829 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:07:44] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 825 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:07:44] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 783 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:07:44] Marble Boulder Golem has been killed.

Not using a misty crystal.

[Pharcellus]

..and you maintain that is a "slightly above average" Gold Rage?? or are you spent full STR/T&C, with equipment and buffs stacked?

..because that is not what your original post (the one I responded to) said.

[Guaran]

Some of your damage shows flame damage. So if you had Flame Attack, and other biped buffs, that affects the damage. Group buffs like Natures Fury make a big impact on my gold rages. So you have to take all that into account. Being in a group vs being solo and self buffed are different pictures of a Dragons perceived power.

[Creme]

Some of your damage shows flame damage. So if you had Flame Attack, and other biped buffs, that affects the damage.

Yes, I tested damage with flame attack & without on marble boulder golems. There wasn't a massive disparity in the damages, but the damage numbers I was getting were a lot higher than what you were doing.

I started off the damage logs by posting that I did it with AND without flame attack. I was not grouped, so there was no nature's fury.

[Guaran]

I did some testing tonight myself my numbers were about what you posted. Was level 50 mobs.

[Vahrokh]

If you calculate the damage on a slightly above average gold rage (not an all-strength dragon AND not with the ancient boost to strength) as 1000k damage per hit and figure on averaging 2700/Gold Rage (instead of 3k to allow for misses), that's a net of 216K damage in 20 minutes. Dragons more geared to top end damage will do more than this

Let's normalize this into "DPS" (damage per second):

216,000 / 20 = 10800 damage per minute or
10800 / 60 = 180 damage per second.


This is pretty much "in line".

Now let's assumed a 60 seconds (I am told of records well below that margin, but let's be "easy") kill of a 153k boss in 2 people.

153K / 60 = 2550 total group DPS
2550 / 2 people = 1275 personal damage per second.



Now, you may consider zero cost 1275 / 180 = 7 times above hoard paid damage as a normal mechanic.


I don't. I can imagine a game where by stacking a setup and "potting" you raise by 50-100% your output, not multiply by 700%.


Moreover, my gear does not totally suck (epic weapon, triple teched vengeance scale, crystals including ethereal damage proc, all tier V techs) and I don't do 1000 damage per gold rage hit against level 95+ mobs.
800 maybe.


Finally, what is your dragon points allocation? Because I don't think slamming all in str is viable for anyone who is not just tagging along as "damage machine" and can't cast a spell or craft.

I did some testing tonight myself my numbers were about what you posted. Was level 50 mobs.

I am getting curious, since I need to redo a scale set I am going to see my damage as well. It'll probably be against Elnath stuff.

[Creme]

I don't. I can imagine a game where by stacking a setup and "potting" you raise by 50-100% your output, not multiply by 700%.

You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing damage output of random abilities and effects firing, with varying durations on the bipeds AND not factoring them in on dragons.

If armor shreds went off, damage would be very high, esp. if it were while the dragons were gold raging. If fangs of fury went off, you'd gain more benefit.

Moreover, Boar's Rage is only effective once every 20 minutes, which makes a dragon's overall damage output (if he's a max damage dragon) exceed that of a max stre biped.

If you tricked the dragon out in all +stre blighted scales....WOAH.

[Shur]

You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing damage output of random abilities and effects firing, with varying durations on the bipeds AND not factoring them in on dragons.

If armor shreds went off, damage would be very high, esp. if it were while the dragons were gold raging. If fangs of fury went off, you'd gain more benefit.

Moreover, Boar's Rage is only effective once every 20 minutes, which makes a dragon's overall damage output (if he's a max damage dragon) exceed that of a max stre biped.

If you tricked the dragon out in all +stre blighted scales....WOAH.

Show us a log were a dragon solos an epic boss in 60 seconds.


go ahead.






well? i'm waiting.

[Creme]

Don't have one, nor do I have one of a biped soloing an epic mob in 60 seconds.

[Vahrokh]

Pump strength high enough and you'll get some more than robust gold rage damage numbers.

So, from:

[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 751 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 751 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 751 slash damage.

you go to

[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 1000 slash damage.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You miss Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII.
[05/23/08 17:08:12] You hit Marble Boulder Golem with Gold Rage VII for 1000 slash damage.


Nice numbers, but I'd prefer to hit for 751 x 3 times. Doing great numbers against citrine golems is not my objective.

You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing damage output of random abilities and effects firing, with varying durations on the bipeds AND not factoring them in on dragons

Moreover, Boar's Rage is only effective once every 20 minutes, which makes a dragon's overall damage output (if he's a max damage dragon) exceed that of a max stre biped.

Now, let's look at how those apples taste like orange.


1) BHM is not the one factor. The stacked setup includes BHM but even without it, it'd still result in huge output, BHM is but the cherry on the pie, so stop calling BHM in cause like it's the source of Evil, it's but a factor.

2) The key is not that you can nuke hard only every 20 minutes, but what you achieve with it.
Epic bosses don't respawn instantly. All it takes is that a boss repops every more than 20 minutes so that you always have the min maxed setup 100% ready for it. The overall result, since the boss won't respawn instantly, is that you have always your cooldowns up for when the boss comes up.

Show us a log were a dragon solos an epic boss in 60 seconds

Heh I'd love to see that, I can die to 3 "trivial" linked Elnath veteran mobs :S

[Godly]

ok ill post hear because i see many complains and what i know about BHM
yes i have 2 if i ever get my unity account working again
with pally i maked on valkor multistrike for about 30k and crit for 15k+ thats like 45k in 2 blows and i dint used valkor sword i used one of blight sword
when i play zerker i maked almost same damage without BHM but then i have others things like priceless axe wich was stacks before with zerker rage just need to proc it and then switch to huge axe and strike massive damage skill for 10sec usualy enough for multi and crit
so with good and right gear good build everything can be strong
my char have loads lvl100 and is strong and was work **** hard for every rating and xp i did
if BHM be nerfed or removed iam sure loads ppl will just quit
i like play with zerker and warrior and pally also rly love my druid so there is no disadvantage some things can be fixed and balanced little more
but i agree that zerker rage will be nice to be little stronger and maybe without penalty it has 3min cooldown and BHM have 20min cooldown from what i remember and BHM also have now same timer for all BHM
so yea every 20min for insane burst of damage is ok in my oopinion wont to say how much BHM save me from die in my farming times when i just use BHM when is rly necesary needed

my 2 cents

[Shur]

my 2 cents

would you mind upping that to a buck and typing in english?