DLF: freedom from biped oppression!

[Melanth]

If you are bored make a biped then you can grovel on yourself for the stuff you need.

been there, done that

however, that still doesnt solve the issue. and dragons are unique; many people get used to the playing style and find the transition difficult to do, and then there is the point that why should you have to make a completely different charachter just so that your main can function efficiently? flame me if you like, but coming back to Valornyx's post about the point that dragon players are percieved as lazy; were not, we simply do not have the option to operate independantly as we should; however you look at it. The biped alt would be used as a means to an end, slow down game progress of the main and generally increase boredom and frustration having to spend forever levelling it just so your dragon can do a specific quest. Levellinga biped is ok for me- for a change; but i pay my subscription to play a dragon. Dragons are unique and should be dealt wit as such.

[Justa Mirage]

After reading this entire post... the OP is only asking a simple request (in which the original lore didn't help much to clarify)

Lore says that in our present age, Dragons and Naka have an uneasy peace between them, assisting each other against the battles with the Withered Aegis. Humas, Half Giants, Saris, Sslik, Elves, Fiends, Dwarves, gnomes, AND DRAGONS fought together at the battle of Tazoon.

Dragons took it upon themselves to continue their bitterness towards the Naka after the battles were over. The wavering trust between the two factions... and the trust the dragons had for the Naka, was waning and still is.

The original lore spelled out that Dragons and Bipeds would learn to work together in this brave new world of Istarians that found they had life everlasting. Years after the battle between the WA and Istarians came to an exploding halt, the relations between the bipeds and the dragons are becoming strained.

"Those Naka are too powerful!" some would say, "They will defeat and kill us all and must be stopped."

Others would argue, "They have their 'uses' and 'purpose' and without their tools, and ability to make things our large claws can't" and we will tolerate them for their usefulness.

The fact that a dragon cannot ascend to adult, and then to ancient based on not being able to obtain certain items unless crafted by a biped (naka) is what is being questioned here. For Khutit form, your only other alternative was to sacrifice one of your claws to inscribe the picture of yourself on your horn.

So the question here is:

Should the game developers add "alternative ways" of finishing a quest without the intervention of biped crafted items and equipment.

[Terao]

Aren't we are all Gifted? Is it that bad that there are some small things you need your confederate "bipeds"?

With the last update dragons got some benefits, and if I understod right there is more to come.

I only see people crying for getting more and the best way is to solve everything without help of others. It's an mmorpg, it's an multiplayer game and not an ego shoter ! There should be things that one can do and others not and all fractions need each other and not all things should be solve able by one single person or one singe fraction.

There is an need into this game - AND MORE OF IT, MUCH MORE - of things dragons can't do, bipeds can't do, and they need each other to solve problems, to fight hightlevel boss mobs, to get a quest going.

And please have a look at it how long it takes to level up an uber multi classed biped or even getting all craftings up, that takes years!

[Melanth]

Aren't we are all Gifted? Is it that bad that there are some small things you need your confederate "bipeds"?

With the last update dragons got some benefits, and if I understod right there is more to come.

I only see people crying for getting more and the best way is to solve everything without help of others. It's an mmorpg, it's an multiplayer game and not an ego shoter ! There should be things that one can do and others not and all fractions need each other and not all things should be solve able by one single person or one singe fraction.

There is an need into this game - AND MORE OF IT, MUCH MORE - of things dragons can't do, bipeds can't do, and they need each other to solve problems, to fight hightlevel boss mobs, to get a quest going.

And please have a look at it how long it takes to level up an uber multi classed biped or even getting all craftings up, that takes years!

Yes, you join the game to have fun, and part of having fun is not having to rely on others to help constantly, and there really are very continuous and significant aspects that dragons are not self sufficient in, e.g deathpoint relief and for lower levels at least, hoard. why do you think that the devs have gone to so much effort to remove powerlevelling from the game? Grouping and interaction, as i have ALREADY stressed multiple times now is a VERY NECCESARY PART OF THE GAME. HOWEVER there are some things that should be handled seperatly and some very distinct inequalities between dragons and bipeds in questing, adventuring, crafting, gameplay, sustainability etc, the list goes on, it really does. There should be the OPTION to act independantly is you wish and to be dependant if you wish, options that currently do not exist. READ THE PREVIOUS POSTS! it is not an ego trip to ask to be able to do things yourself!

[Veruliyam]

Does not the Guilds we create facilitate the interaction and assisting that both sides of the equation need?

I understand there are those who like to test themselves as a lone wolf, so to speak, but are we not social creatures after all?

I will reiterate my desires. Those being perhaps a slower progression for dragons after they reach level 100 in their adventurer school.

Also, be careful in nerfing the Shield of Gold. Perhaps letting it defend against 5 or 6 attacks, instead of the proposed three?

In my attempts to use it, I have seen that timing is everything. Waiting until the last minute usually finds oneself eating dirt.

[velveeta]

we don't have these types of discussions on blight, for which i am totally grateful.
we don't have them because it is a totally meaningless argument.

we have a legendary player on blight. his/her (no one knows) main alt seems to be a draggy - an adult now - and several bipeds.
as far as i know, this player has NEVER taken assistance or help of any kind from ANY OTHER PLAYER. and there are at least 2 other players i know who have not, as long as i have been playing on blight, accepted any assistance - not even asking questions about location or bugs - from anyone i know.

so come on - if peeps can play the game with out other players, draggys should be able to play without biped assistance if they get so very hot and bothered about it.
it obviously can be done, if thats your gig.
so try it before complaining about it. its not impossible and there is no need to have such a totally anti 'discussion' about it.
if one is willing to do the time, one can certainly do the crime.........

[Veruliyam]

I apologize if my post seems to be whining.

I will state I needed a rune stylus for my khutit form quest, but a fellow guildy anticipated that, and gave me one.

Is that not what friends and guild members are for?

Said person invited me (nay, hounded me) to return to the game. (He got me to play many years ago in the trial version.) I would have jibed him and reminded him of this, and asked for the item... Wait. I DID!!

He was very willing, and I invited him to my ascension. Sadly, he was busy doing something else. My ascension was, however, well attended.

This is the best game ever!! For I can be a DRAGON!

The Sslik I made is fun too, as I can speak in the stereotypical fasion of some of my kin.

[Melanth]

Does not the Guilds we create facilitate the interaction and assisting that both sides of the equation need?

I understand there are those who like to test themselves as a lone wolf, so to speak, but are we not social creatures after all?

I will reiterate my desires. Those being perhaps a slower progression for dragons after they reach level 100 in their adventurer school.

Also, be careful in nerfing the Shield of Gold. Perhaps letting it defend against 5 or 6 attacks, instead of the proposed three?

In my attempts to use it, I have seen that timing is everything. Waiting until the last minute usually finds oneself eating dirt.

exactly!

this was never another biped vs dragon thread, although people misreading or not reading previous posts at all have made it that way. instead ask the question:

Dragons cannot function without bipeds. Bipeds can function without dragons. Is this fair?

Dragons are being slowly improved in favour of overwealming opinion of dragon players and apparently against the opinion of a few biped players. The questionis one of whether you want to group exclusively or be independant- both are optional styles of gameplay, both are valid points, but one is no do-able. ihere is aso the matter of endgame content, as has been brought up several times. Istaria's playerbase would fare much better if dragons had endgame content. Many subscriptions would be preserved be keeping dragons amused. Istaria is the only MMO that allows for a truely playable dragon charachter that i know of, and there are no shortage of dragon fans who play and/or have played in the past but have since been lost because of a lack of draconic endgame.

[velveeta]

melnath - draggys can be totally independent, it is possible for draggys to do what they need to do without dealing with any bipeds whatsoever, and it has been done before by at least one player.

its all a matter of how you want to play.

[Veruliyam]

Oops!

I just remembered that a dragon may be fortunate enough to find what he needs on consigners or pawn brokers.

It's a long shot, in my opinion, but I suppose it's possible.

As for the endgame...

Role-playing is a possible path.

Not very satisfactory, however, unless one is in the mood.

[Melanth]

melnath - draggys can be totally independent, it is possible for draggys to do what they need to do without dealing with any bipeds whatsoever, and it has been done before by at least one player.

its all a matter of how you want to play.

Im sorry to contradict you, but it cannot, at least you cannot achieve your full potential. there are quests where biped players and/or resources are needed to complete the quest, not least of which is the Lunus ARoP. And yes, that is built into the lore of the game, but my main complaint is not truculence about bipeds but rather that it would be simply much easier to do it yourself- can be done with assistance if you can find it- entirely player preference.

Balit's quest was a good example, and not a random one. three days of broadcasting on MP later and no biped has yet offered to craft the materials needed, understandable; its a lot of work. It might seem a trivial complaint, but it is an annoying one nonetheless and one that you cant just 'stop complaining and do it yourself' because you cant. Deathpoints is another one, and quite an important one, although that argument has been done to death so ill let sleeping dogs lie. And it is not alone, there are other quests, just as there are disparities between dragons and bipeds, not least of which is endgame content.

It isnt the end of the world however, i know but it is one aspect of a slew of various different complaints and differentiations in which dragon players feel they lose out bigstyle, and given that so many voice their feelings of inadiquacy, *to the doubters* it it not just possible that maybe the majority is right?

i dont want to seem like im complaining; im trying not to- rather, making a statement of fact, wrong or right take it as you will. Other dragon players agree though, so ill stick to my guns about this one.

[Blue Hasia]

In the subject of the arena, I have fought about 6 different multi-peds (one on one) and came out the winner each time. all we have to do is avoid their first onslaught of killer moves then the battle is ours. Remember we can fly it works great in are favor against them.

[Hoberton]

been there, done that

however, that still doesnt solve the issue. and dragons are unique; many people get used to the playing style and find the transition difficult to do, and then there is the point that why should you have to make a completely different charachter just so that your main can function efficiently? flame me if you like, but coming back to Valornyx's post about the point that dragon players are percieved as lazy; were not, we simply do not have the option to operate independantly as we should; however you look at it. The biped alt would be used as a means to an end, slow down game progress of the main and generally increase boredom and frustration having to spend forever levelling it just so your dragon can do a specific quest. Levellinga biped is ok for me- for a change; but i pay my subscription to play a dragon. Dragons are unique and should be dealt wit as such.

Dragons are Unique. And so is every other player in ths game. Believe it or not, not a single player or race is the same. Everyone would like some benefit that would help them. As a biped confectioner I would like to go to Drakul and get Mandrake, (I have but that is another completly different issue), or be able to make it on top of the mountain to get the Star Anise on my own without Dragon assistance. I luckily have a Dragon alt which helps me on the items I would not otherwise be able to get. I also help my Dragon get items he not able to get. We get along just fine. There are ways to be happy in this game instead of complaining about the few things that are not possible at the moment.

[Melanth]

[SIZE=3]And so is every other player in ths game.

There are ways to be happy in this game instead of complaining about the few things that are not possible at the moment.

Yes i am fully aware of this, and i am pointing out disparities: The inability to gather two meagre confectioner resources seems a mighty tradeoff for not being able to make any confectionary at all. Things will change, of that i am confident, but dealing with the here and now there are gameplay issues that are potentially limiting and dragons have beyond a doubt got the worst end of the deal- players with dragon mains agree on that almost unanimously. I am not saying that, for example, a quest involves bipeds so it cant be done- do not mistake my intent- rather saying that having to rely on a biped to do it puts dragons at a disadvantage and if you are unlucky enough not to find a helping hand you are screwed. This is slightly unfair, which is what i am pointing out.

[Zexoin]

Well said Valornyx. Couldn't have said it better.

[Creme]

100% in agreement with Valornyx and Terao.

I have dragons, I have bipeds. Both have their positives and negatives. I see that as balance.

Dragons can do things bipeds cannot.

Bipeds can do things dragons cannot.

I don't see this as game breaking.

I do feel that this environment lately has been all "gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme" and that next on the agenda is the cheat code to unlock "invicible mode" or the atomic bomb ability that will instantly destroy all mobs on the shard, recycles faster than gold rage and removes 3 deathpoints (dragon only ability, of course).

As it stands, there is a dragon ONLY island, accessible only by dragons, with lush mob spawns in a tight density with fast respawns, and no matching locations for bipeds.

[Hoberton]

Yes i am fully aware of this, and i am pointing out disparities: The inability to gather two meagre confectioner resources seems a mighty tradeoff for not being able to make any confectionary at all. Things will change, of that i am confident, but dealing with the here and now there are gameplay issues that are potentially limiting and dragons have beyond a doubt got the worst end of the deal- players with dragon mains agree on that almost unanimously. I am not saying that, for example, a quest involves bipeds so it cant be done- do not mistake my intent- rather saying that having to rely on a biped to do it puts dragons at a disadvantage and if you are unlucky enough not to find a helping hand you are screwed. This is slightly unfair, which is what i am pointing out.

I have read several Dragons in this thread that do not agree with you. If for some reason you can not find a biped to help you or you are unwilling to get help from a biped, (there are some Dragons that refuse help from bipeds), this is more your problem than a Dragon wide problem. Seems to me I could, or someone else could, point out other disparities that Dragons have an advantage (able to fly out of combat) and it still wouldn't matter. You would always come back to "Dragons can't do something - Change it".

(sorry for the bluntness of my last statement - D vs, B threads are old)

[Favoran]

or the atomic bomb ability that will instantly destroy all mobs on the shard, recycles faster than gold rage and removes 3 deathpoints (dragon only ability, of course).

Hey... I like the sound of that. Make sure it doesn't cost too much hoard, kay?

Seriously though... This thread isn't meant to be a D vs B discussion/argument/whatever; this is simply some dragon players raising concerns about how well the dragon can operate INDEPENDENTLY. Personally, I don't see needing to ask for an item or two during quests, even ones as major as the (A)RoP, a major setback; nor do I feel impacted by the lack of dragon-craft-able foods, seeing as I never use them anyhow. However, there are players who do, and there are also many other issues that have been brought up that seem less than fair when one's character is trying to grow somewhat without too much help. Please stop turning this into an argument over what Dragons have that Bipeds don't in order to make our point moot; that's not the purpose of this topic. If you wish to discuss that, make another one for that; or, better yet, post in one that's already talking about that. I'm sure they're out there. But this isn't the place for that.

[Melanth]

Alright, its time for me to eat some humble pie. Obviously in one fell swoop i have managed to touch on several game issues that are sensitive to a lot of players and have raised some very passioate opinions from all sides. This is my first thread on this forum and i was not aware that perhaps the topic had been done to death and would raise such strong objections and opinions. However, this does seemto be one of those arguments with a hundered combatants and a hundred and fifty alliances; there is no single answer, everyones opinion is different, everyone believes it should be handled differently. My own input has not been helpful; the title is easily misunderstood (DLF is a joke reffering to the satirical Postmans Liberation Front, seeing as postmen seem to do nothing but go on strike these days) and the original post, as i have said, i was not aware it would create such controversy. I should have listened to Hoberton's warning (eats another slice of humble pie).

this said, i wish to make several points of my own:

1) Why this inexplicable flaming of anyone who suggests, god forbid, that dragons are underpowered/could use a few more schools/abilities/spells etc? Dragons seem to be regarded as an overpowered class by some and underpowered by others. However it is only one class out of an option of one, certain abilities have to be overpowered because there is no fallback option, even if said fallback option requires more time on behalf of biped players to aquire. I am sure that many dragons would accept a nerf to overpowered abilities such as gold rage if the payoff would be another adventure school to level, put time effort and devotion into to achieve what can currently be done by levelling just one school. This is not a player option, nor is it an issue with out current developing team, and those posters construing it as such should revise their opinions. No one once suggested a 'gimmiegimmiegimmie' attitude with regard to abilites; there is a give and take aspect, the price for the new spell and buff is apparebntly a drastic reduction in the effectiveness of shield of gold, but that is a discussion for another topic.

2) Flaming of people who express their opinions, i do not understand. Is it not common courtesy to A- make a rational point B- explain it -C back it up using examples. Valornyx, you quite clearly have read two or three posts in the thread and then posted a reply that was only a name away from being a personal insult. If people are expressing an opinion that there are disparities between dragon and bipeds then perhaps there is a reasonable grounding for those opinions rather than just a desire for a 'god class' that is unlikable and unbalanced. I feel that opinions on both sides are bisaed, but yet again, that is a discussion for another topic.

Instead, lets continue the topic, with some ground rules and a little rephrasing:

1) to avert the biped vs dragon syndrom, lets not suggest the addition or subtraction of any new abilities/schools etc. In other words, let us stay on topic.

2) arguments must be structured as above: a reason, an informed, logical, rational explanation, with examples backing it up.

The question becomes this:

Given that some dragon quest require materials that can only be produced by a biped (excluding epic quests such as RoP or epic mobs), and that biped assistance is not always availiable, should there be an optional contingency whereby a dragon can complete the quest using their own abilities?

Let us try to keep this civil. Please read posts before replying to the thread as it will help to prevent more misunderstandings.

[Justa Mirage]

It was stated in either this thread or another thread... Dragons cannot:

Gather water (AROP ink quest, Snowballs)
Make Glass vials (AROP Ink Quiet)
Make Mithril Rune Styluses (AROP Ink Quest)
Make Steel Rune Styluses (ROP Khutit quest)
Remove Death Points by eating (Requires Naka created food)
Alchemical Potions for stat boosts (Requires Naka to make)

Of that list the last 2 (removing death points by eating, and Alchemy potions) are things that are not quest related show stoppers.

Without bipeds, there would be no Khutits running around, and there would be no ancients, because one of the requirements for even STARTING the AROP is that you have completed the Khutit quest.

This is where the "dependency on the Naka" exists.