Vengence Scale Tradition

[Hasai]

....Would you rather have the triple-teched PV scales, or would you rather not need them?

Heh; personally, I'd like C: All of the above.

[Sindala]

On a slight tangent but i feel it applies to both sides (players and Devs)

All of us have these 'discussions' as we are passionate about Istaria and what the future holds.

Now that in itself is a good thing to know

Not all of us will like all the changes but it does send a good message that the Devs are 'playing for the future' aswell. If not then it would just turn into an item based game like WoW or UO and most of us know the state of UO at the moment (oops theirs another tremour).

I'm sure if we give the Devs time then these changes will start to make sense, as we see in most posts from them these days they allways end with 'sly winks and inuendo'.

They definitly have somthing up their sleeves

[Melanth]

We can't share everything we are working on, but I would simply ask you to consider something: would you rather have the triple-teched PV scales, or would you rather not need them?

I like the sounds of that, but...

In a recent topic there was a lot of arguing over dragons gaining more abilies, especially extremely powerful ones, despite them being a very necessary part of a dragons functional arsenal and going a long way towards solving imbalancing issues. Biped players dont like that dragons have access to skills like gold rage that can do what it takes sometimes years of multiclassing and a hell of a lot of effort for them to accomplish, despite the dragons not having any real choice in the subject. The debate actually got quite heated.

Effort vs Ability seemed o be the issue of contention,although as has been pointed out, (not getting a dig at the devs here) dragons dont really have a say in the matter.

Perhaps rather than a single ability that has the effect of PV, several cumulative abilities to the same effect, and a quest to achieve them might help to avoid another D vs B argument? It would also serve the dual purpose of providing some endgame for maxed out ancients. There is also the issue, as has been pointed out that more skills to master, more buttons to press= more fun.

Im all for improvements to dragons, but the last thing this game needs is another possible flame war on the horizon.

[Kandin]

I haven't played that long, nor do I play a non-Dragon and my character's level isn't really that high currently. I do see the differences between the two types, and while it does appear somewhat unbalanced, that's to be expected. Especially if there are fairly constant changes to the game in the attempt to make things fair (since few people like things to be realistic, unless realism works in their favor. But life sucks that way.)

It sounds like a loss to have these triple-teched PV scales attuned (don't have one, wouldn't be shocked if I couldn't use one, haven't seen one in action), but if developers have something in the works to balance things out I'm willing to wait to see what happens, especially if the "biped vs. Dragon" issue is actually being looked into. As it stands, I have no choice but to wait and see, since my hatchling doesn't have any of this stuff.

Besides, mechanics have never bothered me that much. I try to play for fun. >.>

[Vahrokh]

We have been working to fix some long-standing issues with dragons, but we can't fix everything and it's not going to be done overnight. Nor is every change we make going to make you happy. Making these scales attuned is one such decision.

We can't share everything we are working on, but I would simply ask you to consider something: would you rather have the triple-teched PV scales, or would you rather not need them?

The question you made, recalled me of many memories...
It was 2006. I had everything. Built hugest plot. Hoard well above cap. Best gear. Triple teched scale. Then I quit the game, because I had an incessant sentence bombarding me: "would you play a dragon, if dragons were not dragons?".
That is, if dragons were not "dragon shaped", with racial quests etc. but were just another Istaria biped adv school in biped shape, would anyone play them? Knowing that they'd be prevented from multiclassing / improving and enjoying many craft classes etc. etc.?

The deep-inside answer kept slamming into my face, and along with seeing Unity becoming a desert shard (that is a MMORPG without MM, me and static NPCs and that's it) and me being unable to further progress in any field, made me finally decide to stop. In anger, for I have always felt an injustice that Horizons did not have the success it deserved, could not show off its so much praised "potential". In anger, also, because I had extremely clear that only in Horizons there are Dragons.



Now it's 2008, I am so happy to be able to hug my dragon once again. Yet, everytime I group with non dragons, the ancient memory comes back, the feeling of being "hard capped" while young and willing to "level up" so much more.
I played a MUD, years ago (a decade? 2?), with playable dragons. I chose it, despite it being considered "the hardest to level" (in fact the MUD is off 1994 and even after so many years of not playing it, I am still the "dragon king" by large. I also chose the known hardest "school" for it, because that school gives the biggest extra-long terms edge / benefits. Moreover, being dragon automatically gave a penalty of 45% less exp gained per kill.
I became a monster (pun intended ), we had a sort of "arena" there and after years of patient growth I could 3 shot everything even in autoattack. The massive strength would kick in stun on the opponent and then keep it forever. Massive damage and my health was massive, armor classed as "exceptional".

I did it. The hardest to level up race, the hardest to level up school, the hardest bosses drops in game (one quest chain lasts IRL years), after years and years and years created a real dragon of the tales.



Now, this is just my non Istarian "history" to show off the kind of "player" I am (likewise in WoW I had been in a top raiding guild going for records etc).

By reading the above, you can probably understand my strive to spend years and years and years and efforts and never stop before becoming the best possible within the limits, regardless of how hard or far or long it takes to reach the "top".

Needless to say, getting everything so easy like dragons do now, but be hard capped so fast to be like an "average to poor" biped character's "power" is extremely limiting.

I am so willing to take 10 years, 1000 classes, 1 trillion exp just to become nearer my ideal of what a legendary dragon would be.

I am sure no biped would object if I became as powerful as them but had to grind exp / hoard / whatever 10 times longer than them.


Said that, I understand I am not the game's owner so I can't hope to go so far. I'd just like to have an open ended future before me. Something to strive for.

[Shian]

We can't share everything we are working on, but I would simply ask you to consider something: would you rather have the triple-teched PV scales, or would you rather not need them?

So why attune them? Why not just wait until you can push out said changes where we would feel we didn't need them anymore. That way, players on thier own accord will shed the PV scales for something better.

[Silverblaze]

#1 item decay... I can't put into words the impact taht would have on Istaria. Suffice it to say i beleive it would be a very negative effect. That however is not the focus of this thread. However, I had to make that statement as I always will when such a heretical idea is spoken aloud (typed).

I for one am against attuning items altogether. however, that trend will not be changed by me, it would take a large undertaking on the players part to make said change. That being said, I'm rather indifferent on the topic. I already cannot give away my Burning Embers crystal (Lasting embers is it?) I get the effect and name confused. Thats really all that mattered to me.

I've got to respond to the entire issue of attuning the scales with a earth shattering *shrug*.

I have a much greater question that perhaps requires its own thread. I will wait several days to get a response before I do that however.

Where are all these changes going?

It seems like the entire adventure school is being revamped. That then begs the question...why? I'm not sure how I feel about that, but if it is in the works then a discussion about it would be a good idea. I eagerly await a response in some form. Preferably an offcial one from the staff.

[Tempests]

I am glad to see that for the most part this thread has been kept fairly close to the subject.
I guess I don't see the great power that vengeance scales have. I have worn mine and been told by friends not to bother with other chest scales for fighting as the techs and or crystals that are available don't beat the PV when it procs. I have no idea how often it actually does proc. I am not really a fighting dragon, merely an old time player. Though, I must admit, I have very little problem with most mobs, as long as I am careful.
I guess my issue is more with the taking away of a tradition. I know of about 3 dragons who can craft the PV scales. If it is an issue of the tech being too powerful, why not remove that tech from being available anymore? It no longer drops, remove it from the spell books. Then, those that have the scales can continue to hand them down, or loan them out, but no more can be made. Gradually they will disappear as someone looses them, stops playing or hoards them accidently (yes, I know that has happened) and the concern that they are too over powered will not be an issue, though, how they can be overpowered, I still don't understand. If in wearing them, I am able to take out mobs of my level, or slightly above, as most other players in the game can do, whatever their level, how does this become over powered? I have seen it proc, and still had to fight my way through the battle, not having an instant win. I could see if having it proc all enemies engaged suddenly died, that would be a definite overpowerment, but I have never had that happen.
I know there is work being done on the dragons. I know there is controversy over that as the ideas of what a dragon should be seem to differ from the point of view of the developers and the players. I am certain Virtrium has an idea where they want the game to go, and how they want it to change, I hope that they aren't looking at turning it into another Vanguard or WoW as both of those games are already out there. The very uniqueness of Istaria is what has drawn so many to it, and I hope that is not lost.
I brought up the tradition of the Vengeance scales because so much of what I have heard is that Virtrium is working toward increasing the lore of Istaria and making it more a part of the game, yet in taking away the traditions, it devalues the lore thereby contradicting the seeming goal.
There are many options out there for improving economy, leveling the playing field, developing the dragons, and other races. I know that Virtrium is looking very hard into the changes they make, but how often are those who play the various races or schools consulted in those changes? Virtrium, of course, has no need to ask or consult with the players, but I do wonder if things like this tradition might come to light if more of the players were asked, and perhaps, a broader range of players were addressed on the issues/concerns Virtrium has before merely handing down changes.

[Vahrokh]

I have seen it proc, and still had to fight my way through the battle, not having an instant win. I could see if having it proc all enemies engaged suddenly died, that would be a definite overpowerment, but I have never had that happen.

Apparently:

- so few have a PV scale that the real effect in game is not known

- it's rumored for it to be comparable to BHM

- hence it's overpowered.


I have it since years. It can determine a bit of push, like you had two attacks more in a whole normal mob kill session, worth like 150 damage each.

That's it. No massive 1000 hits out of a magic cylinder, no sustained spammage of violent burst, nothing.

It's why you don't "feel" it proccing or the impact it has: it's a pretty mild boost you can really do without. If anything, the stun tech is much more determinant in a life or death situation.

After all, my "epic boss farming" guild mate Dakoren (he permacamps bosses all day long) calls for the dragons in the group to equip the stun scale not the PV scale (@stunnable boss ofc). It has to mean something about PV real "overpowered-ness".

I know that Virtrium is looking very hard into the changes they make, but how often are those who play the various races or schools consulted in those changes? Virtrium, of course, has no need to ask or consult with the players, but I do wonder if things like this tradition might come to light if more of the players were asked, and perhaps, a broader range of players were addressed on the issues/concerns Virtrium has before merely handing down changes.

Virtrium are doing many, many fantastic things, but are taking a GREAT risk:

To change much of a game that is 4+ years established and with massively elder playerbase.


For this to succeed and not turn into the S3+ TBC WoW fiasco / SWG fiasco / <you know examples fiascos> that will definitely kill Istaria, they need to do what ALL the fiascos scenarios did not have: to talk.


If they'll retire on an ivory tower and deliver massive changes on the game with no "sense" for the players, no communication, no "why we do this" messages, Istaria will fall.

They have to have a "plan", a "target". If the playerbase are kept blind and ignorant of where the game is going to go, they will resist, oppose and quit. Like in the past.


If dragons (to return on topic) are supposed to be deeply overhauled, they need to know something abot what they are going to become.


I will play devil's advocate (I am red and horned and have a tail and like lava, hence I am entitled to the role ).

To an average player it looks like that:


- they are taking away fun in gameplay and slap hoard costly stuff everywhere. A nerf. Why? None knows, dragons need all but a nerf, as any decently levelled biped can do way more and better.

- they are nerfing the less-than-handful dragon techs to useless.

- they made scales bound, so we can't pass them to guild mates any more.

- they proposed to nerf gold shield, the only emergency (costly) skill.

- they added an heal (very visible, much more than GoV)


(Still playing devil's advocate)
To a random player that does not know how Istaria "works", that Virtrium are trying to improve the game etc. etc., all of the above is a confusing mix (they buff healing? But nerf other stuff? Why?) where the nerfs are annoying like paper cuts. Annoying because they are not nerfing i.e. a stacked setup with paladin + something strong else but a game option that cannot be called exactly "overpowered" nor the most "scaling" (it doesn't, once at the "cap" you are done). This brings more confusion on why of this, it has little apparent sense.

Now, if the random player knew that all of the above is made because there's a long term plan to transform dragons from A to B, that would be annoying but seen as something you have to "endure" to arrive to "B".
As of now, none knows what "B" is about, and this will have consequences on players talking each other (dragon chat is often talking about those changes) and directly affect people willing to return in game.

[Melanth]

Virtrium are doing many, many fantastic things, but are taking a GREAT risk:

To change much of a game that is 4+ years established and with massively elder playerbase.

For this to succeed and not turn into the S3+ TBC WoW fiasco / SWG fiasco / <you know examples fiascos> that will definitely kill Istaria, they need to do what ALL the fiascos scenarios did not have: to talk.

If they'll retire on an ivory tower and deliver massive changes on the game with no "sense" for the players, no communication, no "why we do this" messages, Istaria will fall.

They have to have a "plan", a "target". If the playerbase are kept blind and ignorant of where the game is going to go, they will resist, oppose and quit. Like in the past.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

Everyone wants to see improved content for dragons, so far its the ONLY thing that everyone has agreed on. However, this problem of changes not being discussed and simply handed down as canon is only going to harm the community. take the Deathpoint fiasco for example: within my guild alone i can point out three level 100 dragon players who has stuck with the game through thick and thin since before unity went down, but were lost because it was simply implemented and not discussed. Horizons has too small a player base to apply sweeping changes wthout discussion; if the players dont like it and the subscriptions are lost Istaria suddenly finds itself on a slippery slope.

The shield of gold problem WAS discussed, and the response was staggering; massive protest, and as a result (hopefully) the proposed changes will not be applied, saving subscriptions and making the player community feel listened to. This is the way forwards.

There is the problem of surprises; the dev team want the changes to be a pleasant surprise, very nice yes, but they have also said that there will be changes we wont like. I find myself wondering now if the nice surprise will be seen as a 'payoff' for the bad surprise; if the nice surprise were a spell like Primal Bomb maybe, good thing- dragons (especially Helians) need more spell options. If the bad surprise that went with it were a massive nerf to Gold Rage i would quit the next day, simply because i dont see that the aquisition of a spell would be worth the detriment.

Dragons are a fragile class; we dont have the option of another adventure school to fall back on (for example; a Monk class for a bped is not realistically playable as a main without other multiclasses to act as 'buffers' and compensate for the downfalls of that class), so even small changes can have dire effects on the capabilities of dragon players. When we are so vulnerable i believe strongly that there needs to be careful and prolonged discussion about all changes before the class will be stable enough to have surprises sprung on us that could potentially make dragons unplayable, and as a direct result, potentally knock off a good chunk of subscriptions.

[LaughingOtter]

take the Deathpoint fiasco for example: within my guild alone i can point out three level 100 dragon players who has stuck with the game through thick and thin since before unity went down, but were lost because it was simply implemented and not discussed.

The changes to death points were announced when Tulga posted the initial outline of the confectioner revamp, around two years ago. While it's true that the death point changes were not opened to debate, Amon clearly stated on at least a couple of occasions that we would be watching the response and that, if need be, the death point timers could be adjusted.

The Shield of Gold change you mentioned is a great example of why developers aren't more forthcoming normally. There was no discussion, only adamant rejection of any and all change. Unless the new version was added as an extra ability, that is.

So, to be really blunt, if adding gold burst would require us to make changes in gold rage, and those changes will be seen as a nerf and trigger massive protests regardless of the fact that dragons become stronger overall, why should we add gold burst?

Balance is a matter of give and take. If dragon players aren't willing to give, neither can we.

[Melanth]

The Shield of Gold change you mentioned is a great example of why developers aren't more forthcoming normally. There was no discussion, only adamant rejection of any and all change. Unless the new version was added as an extra ability, that is.

Balance is a matter of give and take. If dragon players aren't willing to give, neither can we.

To cotinue the example, the changes to SoG were a nerf, which regardless of what they were, was why there was open hostility to them. The fact that the changes were actually discussed makes the players feel listened to, regardless of whether anything was actually changed or not.

You mentioned give and take, Dragon players saw this as an incoming nerf to the ability without anything given back to compensate (yeah, we got the heal and the buff, but the buff only affects your ability to run away faster and the heal though it recycles faster, is less effective than Primal instant Heal and not great use fighting mobs that spam mezzes, which is nearly every WA mob). Thats why i used the example of Primal bomb and Gold rage, the aquisition of Primal Bomb would not compensate for the loss of Gold Rage, but the discussion of the hypothetical changes would allow a compromise to be reached without leaving the community in the dark until the last moment when it had already been finalised...

[Sayamie]

Except that a lot more has been taken than given.

[Vahrokh]

The Shield of Gold change you mentioned is a great example of why developers aren't more forthcoming normally. There was no discussion, only adamant rejection of any and all change. Unless the new version was added as an extra ability, that is.

Shield of Gold has been subject to discussion and I seem to recall the replies spanned many paragraphs for motivations, not "NO!" one liners.

The proposal was about taking away the one emergency button we have and replace it with a colorful version of spiked scales. Basically the skill was being just removed and no alternate path to self defense offered.

Basically a change is about going another route to the same end. By making shield of gold something so situational and relying on luck / low lag to still achieve something inferior was not a change. There was not an incoming second skill that coupled with the changed shield would let us achieve the same end again.


And about give and take: I have yet to see people bartering their safe and known stuff for closed surprise boxes. If there's a new "path" planned for the class that involves us losing shield of gold to the other thing, I am sure people would be much more cooperative to know about it.

I.e. if you say "we are going to nerf GR, SoG, Silver Strike and put in game a second ADV school specialized in melee "giving them back" once at 100 + a third ADV school specialized in magic; I am totally sure that people would be much more willing to give up some of their "power" knowing about the whole story.

The "rained off the sky" changes (that for some mysterious reason are often about nerfing something) had bad impact even on hugely succesful titles.

There are some, like me, that would "take" some of those changes, but others that would not and then leave you with a very meager financial future.

Basically, companies like Blizzard can afford treating their "customers" like donkeys, lose 1 million and move more onto the Asian market. You are in a way more delicate situation, with a massively outdated game that can't even run on Vista, enormous unfinished parts, half 3D half 2D (inside), bugs, slow gameplay (the current trend is "twitch MMO"), ancient graphics, no PvP, no dungeons.
Hell, imagine a "default, neutral" new player getting one of the last lairs in game and like me, discover he drowns in there, both with dragon and alts even standing just right inside, can't build it and it "takes" a good money plot fee. To have opened a ticket that is closed saying "we'll fix it when we can". No change since then.

What would such player do? How would a default new player react to the announce of further nerfs?


Sometimes I have a feeling that you don't see how players are giving already, and it's beyond "a dragon".


Virtrium is giving Istaria a great, probably the last chance.
The players are giving Virtrium a massive amount of tolerance, patience, credit, financial support in trust of the skills shown up to now and an investment in "let's be faithful and believe in them and support them".

This, in my primitive dragon skull, can be seen as a very sensible "give and take".

[Wirevix]

I don't have much personal opinion on the Shield of Gold mess myself, as I've never had a dragon who got high up enough to worry about fighting the hard bosses and the like that people say they needed it for.

But I read the thread anyway because it was there, and I must say I disagree with you, LaughingOtter.

There was a lot of discussion there. It was heated, yes, and emotional, yes, but people aren't robots, they infuse emotion into almost everything. Such is life.

Maybe it's just because of my neutral vantage point, but what I saw was a lot of: People explaining how they use Gold Shield as it is now, and why the proposed changes would not fit their current usage. That's about as much of a "discussion" as you can have when the people you're discussing with don't have the time to reply more than once every few dozen posts. Not blaming anyone for this, that's just how it goes, people don't have time to hover around a forum post.

But if that was seen as a "massive rejection of all change," well, then I think someone at Virtrium was taking it a little personally. Either that or not reading closely enough, or getting too caught up in the emotion of everything. People were explaining why they thought it would be a bad thing to implement. There were a few suggestions for a possible compromise on the ability, but most agreed that this ability was serving a role that would not be served by the new version.

That is, in fact, a discussion, or what happens in a one-sided discussion.

I agree with the others - if you want to make big changes to us dragons, that's great. But if we don't know what's at the end of the road, we'll all be on edge and possibly snappy about everything that comes. Like waiting for the end of a suspenseful movie where you jump at every noise until it's over, only this time the movie is one we all have a big role in.

[Melanth]

Shield of Gold has been subject to discussion and I seem to recall the replies spanned many paragraphs for motivations, not "NO!" one liners.

The proposal was about taking away the one emergency button we have and replace it with a colorful version of spiked scales. Basically the skill was being just removed and no alternate path to self defense offered.

I.e. if you say "we are going to nerf GR, SoG, Silver Strike and put in game a second ADV school specialized in melee "giving them back" once at 100 + a third ADV school specialized in magic; I am totally sure that people would be much more willing to give up some of their "power" knowing about the whole story.

My point exactly. As said, Dragons are a fragile class. Unknown changes will be met with resistance when you feel your effectiveness is on the verge of being compromised, possibly to a significant degree, possibly not- we dont know.

Surpises are kept behind closed doors, but suprises can be good and bad, and we already know that there is going to be bad; it is only natural that there will be skepticism. If players were more informed of the changes, and perhaps more importantly, the reasons behind those changes, they would be cooperative.

Varokh hits the nail on the head with tis statement; give and take- but in equal amounts. Dragons are terrified of being left the worse for ware with the upcoming changes, and as e have no 'buffer' schools or abilities to minimise impact, changes to our school are drastic whereas perhaps a biped could (worst case scenario- the school becomes unplayable) simply level another school.

To quote Terry Pratchett: 'a closed door is an incentive to resist, an open door is an incetive to ponder'

[Image]

If economy was any concern then you attune all the scales, armors, etc not just a few rare pieces.
I still think that attuning those teched scales is simply a hidden way to remove those techs from the game. Once the last players with them are gone so will the techs and no one will look like "the bad guy" for simply removing them 1 day.
Image

[Justa Mirage]

I mentioned before long time ago:

When the changes came to crafters to add 25, 50, 75 difficulty addition for tiers 1 - 3 techs, a lot of people left the game after that. I wake up one morning after the patch goes through, finding that items I used to be able to make "just barely" with techs, now requires me to level 11 more times in order to make, EVEN with GEAR. A 40th level fletcher can make an Oak Longbow, but add two tier 3 techs to it and BOOM! it requires 550 skill to make.

This is almost the same, Shield of Gold changes, Vengence scale changes, Dragon breath changes, drain strike changes.

All of a sudden, if these weren't discussed beforehand and just "dumped" onto the playing populace, more people would just up and leave. after almost 5 years, this ability has always acted the same, why change it now with a "promise" of "new goodies coming later" as that sounds too much like the AE of old.

Vengence scales have been the sought after item for dragons from the few crafters that were left to make them. Now that they can't be triple teched, why make those attuned? I know that it's because by passing down armor that is no longer obtainable, gives an advantage to the recipient of the scale. But why the new "single PV scale?"

[Deth]

If economy was any concern then you attune all the scales, armors, etc not just a few rare pieces.
I still think that attuning those teched scales is simply a hidden way to remove those techs from the game. Once the last players with them are gone so will the techs and no one will look like "the bad guy" for simply removing them 1 day.
Image

I do not think it is to help the economy. I think it is to keep rare epic items just that rare and epic. Me I only have one of the rare dragon techs. The Spell one that no one wants or even thinks of or most likely remembers any anymore. They have started attuning all of the epic like items and I assume will attune future such epic rare items and I agree with this. That way older people will have things that they can brag about and show off and say "I was there when ...... happened." Not "I knew ...... and he gave me ........" That to me takes away from the prestige of owning such an item. With the techs you can say "I was able to get ....... from ......." That way the persons who was there and got the rare tech prestige and fame grows.

[Shian]

Like waiting for the end of a suspenseful movie where you jump at every noise until it's over, only this time the movie is one we all have a big role in.

Except we have no idea what kind of movie we're watching..that's what makes it even more suspenseful.

- so few have a PV scale that the real effect in game is not known

- it's rumored for it to be comparable to BHM

- hence it's overpowered.


I have it since years. It can determine a bit of push, like you had two attacks more in a whole normal mob kill session, worth like 150 damage each.

That's it. No massive 1000 hits out of a magic cylinder, no sustained spammage of violent burst, nothing.

It's why you don't "feel" it proccing or the impact it has: it's a pretty mild boost you can really do without. If anything, the stun tech is much more determinant in a life or death situation.

Okay, it could be all that but really what it boils down to is that techs are not supposed to stack. The devs changed it so it was "correct" again. They could have just as easily deleted everyone's triple PV scales because they are not supposed to be in the game anyways. Instead they let us keep them. I think that's pretty fair.

As far as the OP goes, you can still pass on crafting and hunting scales as you outgrow them. I know I have been.