When to do the (Adult) Rite of Passage

[Sigi]

You should not let anyone else tell you when to ascend, and certainly should not hold back for RP purposes unless you want to. I admit I ascended at level 35, and I regret nothing about it. I am a proud ancient now, and I am just as strong as every other ancient out there. The RoP is more fun, honestly, when you have help anyways. Soloing gets boring fast.

The RoP is your choice and yours alone, NOBODY else's. Deside for yourself and do not let other's deside for you.

I agree, as long as you're not breaking game rules it is all up to you. This whole topic has something religious about it (and not in the good sense, more a bit towards burn the witches).

[Kyrieath]

*slinks out of her superlurk status*

Quite the can of worms indeed. I, personally, never looked down on any dragon who completed their RoP at a young level. Why? For some, it takes a different kind of courage to be willing to ask for help- particularly when many times it requires kindness on the part of a complete stranger. Even if you're doing it early- and this holds especially true for the Helian RoP- there is still a great deal the hatchy has to do for themselves.

And what of the dragon who wants to be fairly well entirely a crafter and not an adventurer/grinder at all? Flight becomes a necessary requirement then- and if they prefer the crafting/gathering aspect over the adventuring aspect, grinding up to that level 50 when they'd much rather be making and building things is just torture.

If they're botting/power leveling/whining for help on EVERYTHING, even the things they should be fully able to do themselves...that's one thing. But if they're making a genuine effort and want to get their wings early and have people who are willing to help: where's the shame? It used to be no one looked down too heavily on a hatchling who did this- what changed?

[Tcei]

It used to be no one looked down too heavily on a hatchling who did this- what changed?

The main reason this seems to happen is that it seems there were a handful of players who did RoP at an early age years ago and then promptly quit, many of the older players remember this and now just assume that all "early flyiers" are going to behave the same way this small group did way back when, and thus treat all early fliers poorly.

The secondary reason is because of a handful of players, who have returned since VI got the game, seem to have it in their mind that their way is the only way to play the game. What I find amusing about this second group (and some of the first) is that they all quit around the time EI got the game, many for the same reasons they harass me and others for.

*shrugs* Its a shame really, in some ways I really miss the old community that existed while EI was in control. (But not the company or what they almost did to the game) While there was the occasional bit of unnecessary drama or fight for the most part that core group of the time was really friendly and close nit.

[aine]

The main reason this seems to happen is that it seems there were a handful of players who did RoP at an early age years ago and then promptly quit, many of the older players remember this and now just assume that all "early flyiers" are going to behave the same way this small group did way back when, and thus treat all early fliers poorly.

P'shaw! Many may SAY that is the case, but frankly, I am not buying it. We weren't there to see that happen, so we must either take their word for it...or not. I do not. There has been a plethora of reasons for people to leave this game over the years. So-called early flight is quite unlikely to account for many of them.

The secondary reason is because of a handful of players, who have returned since VI got the game, seem to have it in their mind that their way is the only way to play the game. What I find amusing about this second group (and some of the first) is that they all quit around the time EI got the game, many for the same reasons they harass me and others for.

Actually, this nonsense was going on under the EI administration, too. I was subject to it two years ago, when I ascended.


My take is that those who chose to wait hate to see others gain the same end result (flight) with less wait-time and (presumably) less "work". They made their choice, then want to harass others for not being as self-sacrificing as they chose to be. There is no "early"...the quest cannot be taken until the right level. There is only "late", and a self congratulatory attitude amongst a few "late" ascenders that prompts them to be rude to others.

Don't ascend late? Then you are not part of the club! (heh)

Last I will say regarding this...I see that my words are becoming stronger each time I speak. It is not my intent to offend, just felt I needed to say what I have been thinking for years.

[Silverblaze]

#1 first and foremost this is a game, do as you will, until it messes with me.

I dont mind helping or level 30 adults, but dont *expect* help, realize you may have to wait. The best skill in playing a dragon, especially early on....patience.

#2 Role-playing. I do it alot in other media. Usually D&D or the like, not so much on HZ. Bottom line, there really isnt a *wrong way* to do it. Make sure you realize people cant keep some things seperate from IC/OOC. You are accountable for actions and words. really thats all I got.

I don't care about either issue truly. Afterall its a game.

[Kyrieath]

Heh..the community pre-EI was considerably more forgiving than the EI era of it, and apparently far more accepting of 'early' adults than some of those now if people really are starting to bust the chops of any young adult. Kyrie didn't get her wings until just after the server merge and even then people were quite understanding of a young, solo-running dragon wanting her wings early so she could safely re-find the materials she needed for crafting. (If you weren't here for that: everything was moved around. There used to be tons of tier I gems and stone near the remote crafting cave in Chiconis for instance.)

Even for RP purposes, given dragons are time-locked, that's still no excuse to rag on someone for growing up 'early'. I really don't think characters are walking around with a level tag hanging off their wing to say they're 'level 37' in character- so how on earth is anyone to know a hatchling grew up 'early' when they never age or grow until that rite?

To wrap up my point: There was no 'too early' gripe once upon a time; folks were fine with helping you out as long as you weren't being a nag. Seems like that's changed steadily since the start of EI's days, when many of the original community left in frustration with them. Never thought I'd see the day when elitism invaded Istaria.

[Kiamarra]

Thanks Pevil! :P

Another story I forgot to add to my previous post.

The first guild I was in, I was, well, kicked out because I started my RoP at level 30. And then after that, they told the kind person(and I am now in this person's guild, hehe ;p) who was helping me to stop helping, because I "broke guild rules". It was horrid and made absolutely no sense.

As for the scales, they are later replaced by primal vengeance and such. The level 50 one only adds 20 armor, the other stats are not worth the armor loss.

And I participated in all my fights, and only died once, ONCE on the run to draak. It's not as hard as it seems if you go the right way.

Also, I participated in every fight, even against entombed. And I only fought him with one other(powerful to say the least ;p) biped.

For those of you saying to raise the level req to 50/50, that's outright rediculous. Some people hate crafting, and it would deter them from continuing to play.

Also, I must say this. It is nobody's business what somebody does with THEIR character that THEY are paying for.

I've helped many many hatchlings do their RoPs when they hit 30, and I never tell them what they'll miss out on, because when you ascend, you only gain armor, wings,and strength.

[Zexoin]

I've helped many many hatchlings do their RoPs when they hit 30, and I never tell them what they'll miss out on, because when you ascend, you only gain armor, wings,and strength.

I do not agree with that. Doing RoP at lvl 30 is fine (I did it with my alt at lvl 31, with my main at 64 ), but not telling them what they miss if they do that is just plain wrong. People can't take the right decision if they don't know everything it implies.

[Vahrokh]

To wrap up my point: There was no 'too early' gripe once upon a time; folks were fine with helping you out as long as you weren't being a nag. Seems like that's changed steadily since the start of EI's days, when many of the original community left in frustration with them. Never thought I'd see the day when elitism invaded Istaria.

What server do you see this on? There's just 2 servers and on Chaos I have yet to see (since Unity players got migrated) such a drama.
On the contrary I see some like Pags totally active at helping hatchies of every "age" to do RoP and when they ask me I join as well.

Maybe all of this it happens after 1am CET, when I go to bed? (Should be 7pm EST)

[Tcei]

To my knowlege this is only an issue on Order, which is why I started anew on Chaos, as I've been told both it and Blight do not have such attitudes. In general it seems to be an RP belief that's been blown way out into ooc land.

[velveeta]

yeap we generally have a 'whatever you want' attitude about things like this on blight. i mean, i can't see it being my bizniz what a person wants to do with his/her character. i ain't paying the sub......

and you guys (the general 'you guys') can't make this work in rp? no precocious hatchies? no hard luck case orphan who has to grow up soon or break? no artful dodgers, no oliver twists? millennia of litrature awaits to be plundered for roleplaying ideas? even if books is your kryptonite, surely tv can offer ideas? plenty of movies should have nuggets of ideas as well......

anyway - my (little played) hatchie, mourningwood, is gonna wait until he is uber to go adult - still gonna have any/everyone on blight who wants to join in the whole rite......

that should make everyone happy!!!

[Kyrieath]

What server do you see this on? There's just 2 servers and on Chaos I have yet to see (since Unity players got migrated) such a drama.
On the contrary I see some like Pags totally active at helping hatchies of every "age" to do RoP and when they ask me I join as well.

Maybe all of this it happens after 1am CET, when I go to bed? (Should be 7pm EST)

I saw it actively on Chaos before my account expired back in Feb; I had hoped it had changed since then. Plenty of folks in the Dragon channel would frown on a hatchie who had gone through it early unless they were offering up a 'reason' like "this is my second dragon" or "I'm a reroll from Unity".

If it has died down at last: thank god. The fact this thread even turned up, however, has me thinking it's still clinging to some degree and makes it seem more like it's becoming a little more tightly ingrained.

[Amecha]

Oooh Velveeta, if I am on, you know you can count me in!

[Steele]

Thank you, Oakleif, for providing a forum for this very sensitive, polarizing, and thought-and-opinion provoking topic.

*bows in reverence to Peladon* A wordsmith indeed, with a silver tongue as true as my mithril smithing hammer. Well said as always, Master Sephiranoth.

*sigh* Where to begin…

Since my return to Order nine (wow) months ago after a three-year break, I’ve seen this Dragon RP/RoP issue play out a few times – and almost without fail every time I’ve observed it, it has descended into ugliness.

I’m weary of seeing folks cloak their RL/OOC barbs under the false pretense of “roleplay”. I’m tired of seeing folks jump to hostile conclusions about players’ motivations. I’m disheartened by an almost-routine imposition of one faction or another’s version of “proper roleplay” over how others wish to play their characters. And yet… I still love the game, I still love the people, and I remain proud of my shard-mates on Order for the many, many times they have bent over backwards to assist others, most of the time at the cost of significant self-inconvenience.

We need to remind ourselves and others around us that yes, everyone’s opinions on “proper” dragonplay (as well as roleplay in a more global sense) do matter – but there’s something just as important: bringing additional players into the fold of our community. Everyone has a role to play, and everyone has a place here; there will be powergamers in every game, and Istaria is no exception. I know some folks are afraid some of the 30/20 fliers will “cheapen” the game, somehow cheapen their experience, because they don’t have a “true appreciation” for what it means to be a Dragon; those concerns are valid, just like they are valid in any game, in any community where people really and truly care about their community.

However, although players do make the community what it is, we don’t own the community as it is… and just like IRL, we all sometimes need to accept some things that upset us: just because we disagree with the principles displayed or decisions made by others doesn’t mean we have the right to make those other people miserable over it. Sure, if we disagree with the timing of someone’s RoP we don’t have to help in their RoP. We don’t even have to answer their questions in chat. We should feel free to send them a courteous, non-defensive /tell and chat with them a little. Get to know them a little as a player, and maybe let them know some of the things they might be missing; they might be a new player and simply might not know about the scales quests – in such a case, we might change their mind. What we do not have a right to do, however, is to be belittling or abusive (IC or OOC) toward them, or toward anyone who might be of a mind to assist them.

Many folks at least recognize my name, at least some recognize my character, and fewer still consider me a friend and comrade for everyday affairs; such be the ways of the world. It saddens me that some of those may respect me less once they are reminded that I took Grakkelluroruum through his RoP with the assistance of a select few very dear friends, prior to Adv L40. *shrug* It may have been over three long years ago, but it’s true nonetheless.

Anyone who knows me as a player knows that I’m a student of the technical game, as well as of the lore. I wanted to experience life as an Adult. I wanted to be a Lunus in body as well as in spirit. I wanted the lightning breath weapon. I wanted to test the game to see what happened if I tried to get both breaths (it didn’t work ). I wanted to fly. I wanted to travel the world from corner to corner, which I just couldn’t do as a Dwarf (I’m a pretty darn good terrain climber, but you can’t beat flight for raw exploration). I wanted to test the flight engine, and I pondered why it hadn’t been applied to an in-game swimming system. My reasons were many, and my reasons were varied; some were IC and some were OOC, but the bottom line is they were my reasons, and my reasons alone.

After going through Grakk’s RoP “early”, did I leave the game? Sure I did… so I guess that makes me a negative statistic there, hehe. I think many Istarians, biped-only, dragon-only and mixed-character players alike, left the world during those darkest times, after holding on in the hope that the game would recover from its tailspin.

By going through Grakk’s RoP “early”, have I cheapened the game for anyone? Gosh, I sure as hell hope not… when I’m playing Grakk I try very hard to play what I believe is a proper Lunus - but just like everything else I do, I’d never claim to be anywhere near to perfect. Just curious, but what is perfect, anyway? And who is the designated judge, you know, so I know who to watch out for...

After going through Grakk’s RoP “early”, have I helped people whom others feel may not have deserved it? Abso-freakin-lutely. Why? Because I’m grateful to be able to play in the world of Istaria again! Because I want others to enjoy their time here as players and paying customers! And darnit, above all else, because I’m proud to be a member of Order shard and want its reputation as a warm, welcoming roleplay community to proliferate!

As long as Dragon players are respectful of our in-character game-play, appreciative of our courtesy, and try their best to contribute to the in-character character of the shard, I’m confident that they’ll become long-term assets, regardless of when and how they go about their RoP.

To those who have endured this novella with unwavering eyes: you have my thanks and appreciation. To those who just couldn’t do it: can’t say I blame ya LOL!

See yas in game!
- Steele/Grakkelluroruum
- Proud member of the community of Order Shard

[Veruliyam]

*passes out after the reading marathon*



I applaud you, friend Dwarf, as best as my talons will allow.

[Vahrokh]

I saw it actively on Chaos before my account expired back in Feb; I had hoped it had changed since then. Plenty of folks in the Dragon channel would frown on a hatchie who had gone through it early unless they were offering up a 'reason' like "this is my second dragon" or "I'm a reroll from Unity".

If it has died down at last: thank god. The fact this thread even turned up, however, has me thinking it's still clinging to some degree and makes it seem more like it's becoming a little more tightly ingrained.

Well, I'd split it into 3 cases:


1) People that don't bother about the issue, they will even actively help "young" hatchies at RoP.

2) People that don't bother about the issue, they will warn / tell the hatchies they are losing a big value off their epic quest, but past that won't hold a grudge if they still want to continue and will eventually help them to. I am in this number, I believe doing RoP too soon is a loss, will warn about it, but then that's it, go for your chosen direction.

3) People who bother and get annoyed / annoying, they will do the hostile stuff you read about in this thread.

I’m weary of seeing folks cloak their RL/OOC barbs under the false pretense of “roleplay”. I’m tired of seeing folks jump to hostile conclusions about players’ motivations. I’m disheartened by an almost-routine imposition of one faction or another’s version of “proper roleplay” over how others wish to play their characters. And yet… I still love the game, I still love the people, and I remain proud of my shard-mates on Order for the many, many times they have bent over backwards to assist others, most of the time at the cost of significant self-inconvenience.

I know it's not your case, but I remind to everyone "weary" that, before giving up and quitting the game, they can migrate their character onto Chaos / Blight and stop beating their head against the RP rigtheous nazis (hopefully they are a minority, but even a minority of them ruins the fun to all).

[Steele]

*cough* "RP righteous [police]", please, for the benefit of those who have clearly indicated their displeasure for the term?

[Amecha]

<random thought> Hmm... I do wish there was cross-shard chat ability. I would so love to talk to friends on Order while on Blight.... </random thought> hehe

[Vahrokh]

*cough* "RP righteous [police]", please,

Sorry, it's a very widely used term on forums around all the world (not even censored by this very forum that will censor the 3 letter colloquial synonym for "bottom"). None the less, since it griefs you, I tried to edit the post some hours ago but the editing was disabled already :S

[Tcei]

Is transfering a character over from Order to Choas possible? That'd be a very tempting idea, even if I had to loose all the things in my bank... Then again I probably still wouldnt play Lan for fear of the few jerks on Order having alts on Chaos and taking the opportunity to harass me there...