Broken crafting quests?

[Mensar]

At level 55 lairshaping I tried to get a quest to increase my mining, quarrying or even my inventory capacity (dimensional pocket) and was told I didn't have the exp to talk to them. I haven't done any of the quests since level 30 DCRA.

I believe the shared skills trainers (skills that affect both trees like quarrying, mining, etc.) are looking solely at the DCRA level instead of the current craftskill level (whichever between DCRA/DLSH is higher).

I'm sure this isn't by design but I'm sure there are few people out there with higher DLSH than DCRA (or, in my case, double the skill) but if that's the case, I can't see why someone would only be able to learn how to mine with a mining trainer if they're doing crafting vs lairshaping when lairshaping learns just as much about mining as crafting does.

If that makes sense? And especially the dimensional pocket trainer.

Unless, of course, I'm not doing something right and have missed something. But when I talk to them and get the response "you don't have enough exp to talk to me".. well, I figure since I haven't spoken to them since level 2 masteries.. something is out of whack.

Thanks.

[Vandalin]

I think it's similar with bi-peds though. If you have a prestige class you can't go to the basic class trainer for quests can you? Lairshaping is for this sake a Prestige class. Just as you don't get exp from making Bronze bars anymore even though you still make tons you can't get quests if you are not in that school anymore.

I agree though that it stinks...expecially dimensional pocket as that isn't even a craft technically.

[Mensar]

The difference here is that prestige crafting is based on the base skillsets of another skill that don't increase as the prestige school skills do. (like blacksmithing and armorer.. weaponsmithing goes nowhere).

Lairshaping isn't like that. Every skill that is linked between the two increases with the exception of spellcraft, transmutation, salvaging and scalecraft.

So why wouldn't we be able to accept quests to learn more about skills we're increasing, just like we would with DCRA?

[Vandalin]

There you have a point. Mining, smelting, quarry, stone, essence siphon & shaping and gemworking should all be available through that line of attack.

[Shian]

There you have a point. Mining, smelting, quarry, stone, essence siphon & shaping and gemworking should all be available through that line of attack.

But none of those have anything to do with lairshaping. Just like not getting xp for making base components, you can only get and do things that require lairshaping. Making lairshaping components and placing.

[Mensar]

But none of those have anything to do with lairshaping. Just like not getting xp for making base components, you can only get and do things that require lairshaping. Making lairshaping components and placing.

They're just as needed for lairshaping as they are for crafting? Why say one branch of crafting requires something that another branch does too and then try to make it unique to just that branch? Why not say, hey.. crafting doesn't need smelting and gathering.. they should have to do lairshaping to get those skills?

Now, granted.. the exp factor is there to prevent powerleveling. I'm not even addressing that. But we shoudln't make our determination on what is "required" for one branch vs. another because of a separate balancer put in place to avoid exploits.

You can't really single out shared skills like that arbitrarily and say they're unique to a certain branch when they're used by both.

Just like you can't say quests to increase those skills are only available to one branch when they're used by both.

Granted, you should only be able to do them once. But whether you're 60 crafting or 60 lairshaping shouldn't be the issue.

[AmonGwareth]

They are quests for supporting abilities that are used by Lairshaper yes, but they are meant for Dragon Crafter. If you wish to raise those up, you will need to level Dragon Crafter.

[C`gan]

Pretty much for dragons, if you didn't get the quest from that half-witted, rude, hide-bound, cowering red Relstaroth or the green dragon sharing his lair, it's a crafter quest (unless it's to kill things, in which case it's an adventure quest).

[Mensar]

They are quests for supporting abilities that are used by Lairshaper yes, but they are meant for Dragon Crafter. If you wish to raise those up, you will need to level Dragon Crafter.

Exactly, but I can't get them as a Lairshaper. You're right they're crafting quests. I'm not sure why DCRA gets them though, since DLSH uses all those skills to make lairs.

In fact, why DOES DCRA have those quests? Those need to be moved to DLSH only.




now... what's the first thing you're thinking? HuH? BUT DCRA was first! Or DCRA is the base skill!

Doesn't seem fair? Hmm. You're right. But now look at it from the other angle. Another class that uses all the same skills and learns all the same skills doesn't have access to quests. Why penalize or hurt someone that only wants to do DLSH? It's no easier or harder than DCRA.. In fact, DLSH doesn't even get exp until they get to their second and somtimes third creation tier of components (Tier meaning level of crafting.. base being bar, for example.. next tier being lodestone, next tier being Maelstone.. which is where DLSH starts making exp) in order to keep things fair and even with DCRA.

I know this because I have two DCRA dragons that train right alongside one that only does DLSH so I have a unique vantage to call this a glitch. Both dragons do the SAME things as my DLSH but level at the same pace has the DLSH dragon. There is no favoritism, no powerleveling possibility now that they nerfed the exp on lodestones.. and, even then, who benefits from that? DLSH doesn't get exp for lodestones.. DCRA does!

So before you try to classify this into a certain category and firm up your mindset that DCRA is the only class that should get access to gathering, stoneworking, smelting and gemworking quests.. bear in mind that both trees are equal by DESIGN in every way. DCRA can make scales, spells and claws, DLSH can't. The same way DLSH can make placing components for lairs and DCRA can't.

Surely there's no fault in that logic. Anyone claiming otherwise is, unfortunately, not looking at the facts. Mining is no more a DCRA skill than Stoneworking is a DLSH since both trees of crafting use both skills and learn them at an equal pace.

I know I'm going on and on.. that's because I'm failing to see the loophole in the logic and I'm hoping maybe I can see a different way to explain this to people and maybe cure some ignorance of how one tree works vs. another.. or open myself up for more information to cure my own ignorance as to why this, as some people want to say, working as intended.

I don't believe it is.

[Mensar]

They are quests for supporting abilities that are used by Lairshaper yes, but they are meant for Dragon Crafter. If you wish to raise those up, you will need to level Dragon Crafter.

Didn't see your "dev" badge there. Maybe you can shed some light then.

So DCRA is the only class that should be able to learn to be a better gatherer (for example) because they make scales?

I'm just not seeing the logic when another crafting class, that coincidentally is more gathering-intensive, uses the same skills, learns the same skills, levels up at the same pace and is just as entitled or unentitled to having access to those quests.. can't get them?

I'm sure there's another reason. Just curious to hear why I would need to level DCRA to be better at gathering as opposed to doing the same thing in DLSH.

[Deth]

Because Dragon CRAFTER is just that the base crafter class that learns all the basic skills of crafting, which yes spell and scale crafting are part of, and Dragon Lairshaper is learning how to make buildings and truly learning how to use already shaped bricks,bars, and orbs. Yes you pick up some experience on how to shape the base resources from handling and adjusting them some for use in making your lairs. But to learn the fine tuning secrets, the extra craft quest, you must learn the "secrets" of the Base craft class. At least thats the way I see it.

[Mensar]

Because Dragon CRAFTER is just that the base crafter class that learns all the basic skills of crafting, which yes spell and scale crafting are part of, and Dragon Lairshaper is learning how to make buildings and truly learning how to use already shaped bricks,bars, and orbs. Yes you pick up some experience on how to shape the base resources from handling and adjusting them some for use in making your lairs. But to learn the fine tuning secrets, the extra craft quest, you must learn the "secrets" of the Base craft class. At least thats the way I see it.

You're talking about Lairshaping like it relies on DCRA for something.

I've been saying this over and over, bud. It doesn't rely on DCRA for anything. It's self sufficient, as it should be.

Instead of trying to find ways of justifying why this might be WAI it would actually take less time to just fix it. I mean, all that has to change is a check on greet where highest CRAFTING (overall) level is checked, not just highest DCRA level.

It just seems like, in this game (alone), everyone is so hard headed against change. Especially something glaring like this glitch. Everyone wants to hold on to the way things are. That doesn't allow a game to grow. Especially when it's not, in any way, explainable beyond "WAI" or "that's just the way it is".

Kinda losing faith in the devs that I got to know during beta in chat that were so gung ho on fixing things and making this a better game.

[Shian]

Like I said before, it is not a glitch if the devs have stated it is how it is supposed to be. You can't just label something a 'glitch' just because you want it changed.

You need crafting skill first in order to even start lairshaping.

Believe me, if I had a choice I'd have just done lairshaping too, but it's not like it's difficult to level crafting. You don't have to make scales for xp. Make your components in crafter, then switch to lairshaping. That way you get xp for both schools and you can do your quests without feeling like you have to make scales and claws.

Without doing those quests you're missing out on a total skill of 100 extra points in all you gathering/crafting skills-something that you will need when you start T5 lairshaping. It will be extremely difficult without them.

[Deth]

You have your view i have my view. I am not against change I just look at it differently then you is all. Me, personally, I think DLSh should not get any of the basic resource skills but for Crystal shaping, at least till/if we get a crystal Shaping class. But that is just me.

Also I do think it should rely on Dragon Crafter. I have never built a house but I would think, at least in the old days not the current prefab days, You had to have at least a basic knowldge of woodworking and such, depending on what you built. Would that make it harder yes, but I think it would help diversify the dragon some and, no in the long run it would most likely mean all dragons learn both crafts. but it would be nice if some dragons worked one and other dragons worked another and the economy was boosted and dragons would work togather more so the the solo feel dragons have now.

[Deth]

Oh and because my brain is running slow today I finally thought of the other "lore" reason for the difference. The quest teach you how better to craft the base resources into Bars, Bricks and Orbs. When your learning DLSH your learning how to take bars, bricks, and orbs to make them into a different type of item not to make the the basic items. So spring off my other post there should be an basic and advanced skill for all craft/construction classes classes.

The basic craft classes learn basic or resource skill of making bars,bricks and Orbs. Then the constrution classes would learn advanced skills of using those items to make constrution items. I.E. Basic Smelthing world make bars, Advanced Smelting would be used to turn bars into an cunstruction sub item such as, I forget the names currently, Just like Scalecraft turns bars in to scales. Then you use Laircrafting to turn them into the final item.

[Justa Mirage]

I posted this WAY back a long time ago when lairshaping first came to being.

What happens if DCRA becomes less than DLSH? Do the trainers still give you the quests to enhance your crafting abilities to keep up with your need to make those for your higher Lairshaping?

The answer is "No" as Lairshaping is a prestige class geared to augment your crafting. A higher level crafting dragon can "give you" lodestones, crystals, essence, etc that you cannot craft yourself, but you as a high level lairshaper can make and apply these materials at optimal due to your level.

This however does NOT apply to biped schools (No this is not dragon vs. biped mongering, justa point)

Bipeds that take "weaving" for example, get skill in Leatherworking. I can make a tier III leather backpack as a 61st level weaver. This is because my leatherworking goes up with my weaving levels.

But...

As a dragon goes up in lairshaping, they don't get the next tier abilities to mine / harvest the resources they need to make things (I could be wrong on that) and their quest lines are not available.

-------------------------

Let's say a dragon has done all the 30th level crafting quests for DCRA but has not reached 40th level yet, but has reached 40th level in Lairshaping.

The question is:

Does a dragon get the next tier (tier III) of tool abilities? (Don't know myself)
Will a dragon be able to take quests to enhance their crafting of raw materials? (answer to this is NO)
Can dragons learn formulas to make these new tiers of resources if they don't meet the crafting levels of the next tier?

[Deth]

If they have the skill they can scribe the forms. I am not sure about the about the tool issue. I have never thought about that before. I would think you would get the processing tools not sure if you get the gathering tool abilities or not.

[Mensar]

Like I said before, it is not a glitch if the devs have stated it is how it is supposed to be. You can't just label something a 'glitch' just because you want it changed.

You need crafting skill first in order to even start lairshaping.

Believe me, if I had a choice I'd have just done lairshaping too, but it's not like it's difficult to level crafting. You don't have to make scales for xp. Make your components in crafter, then switch to lairshaping. That way you get xp for both schools and you can do your quests without feeling like you have to make scales and claws.

Without doing those quests you're missing out on a total skill of 100 extra points in all you gathering/crafting skills-something that you will need when you start T5 lairshaping. It will be extremely difficult without them.

Actually it'll be impossible to gather more than 1 per hit at that point without that 100 point boost AND serious potions/scales.

I still contend that the dev responsible for the skills for dragons hasn't taken a look at it.

It may not be hard to level crafting. That's fine. But if someone doesn't want to level crafting in order to learn to mine better (unrelated skillset anyway) when they learn to mine as DLSH.. why should they go have to learn how to make scales in order to learn to better mine?

BUt everyone is missing the point because nobody is wanting to fix it. No worries, I give up. I thought I'd have an easy time considering the logic behind it. Not so.

[Mensar]

You have your view i have my view. I am not against change I just look at it differently then you is all. Me, personally, I think DLSh should not get any of the basic resource skills but for Crystal shaping, at least till/if we get a crystal Shaping class. But that is just me.

Also I do think it should rely on Dragon Crafter. I have never built a house but I would think, at least in the old days not the current prefab days, You had to have at least a basic knowldge of woodworking and such, depending on what you built. Would that make it harder yes, but I think it would help diversify the dragon some and, no in the long run it would most likely mean all dragons learn both crafts. but it would be nice if some dragons worked one and other dragons worked another and the economy was boosted and dragons would work togather more so the the solo feel dragons have now.

Yes, knowlege of woodworking would be essential, I agree. Kind of like stoneworking. But DLSH learns stoneworking the same way DCRA does.

Anyway, I give up. Logic has failed. I'm being told obvious logic is my 'opinion'. That's where I stop trying.

[Mensar]

Oh and because my brain is running slow today I finally thought of the other "lore" reason for the difference. The quest teach you how better to craft the base resources into Bars, Bricks and Orbs. When your learning DLSH your learning how to take bars, bricks, and orbs to make them into a different type of item not to make the the basic items. So spring off my other post there should be an basic and advanced skill for all craft/construction classes classes.

The basic craft classes learn basic or resource skill of making bars,bricks and Orbs. Then the constrution classes would learn advanced skills of using those items to make constrution items. I.E. Basic Smelthing world make bars, Advanced Smelting would be used to turn bars into an cunstruction sub item such as, I forget the names currently, Just like Scalecraft turns bars in to scales. Then you use Laircrafting to turn them into the final item.

Exactly! But in order to make better scales, you get a quest to make better scales. Lairshaping gets a quest to place items better. BUt neither should have access to gathering since it is unique to neither class.

So.. my new recommendation, take them out altogether and create a gathering class for dragons. And tell everyone it was my suggestion.

Don't care at this point

Where logic fails, stupidity prevails.