Broken crafting quests?

[Mensar]

I posted this WAY back a long time ago when lairshaping first came to being.

What happens if DCRA becomes less than DLSH? Do the trainers still give you the quests to enhance your crafting abilities to keep up with your need to make those for your higher Lairshaping?

The answer is "No" as Lairshaping is a prestige class geared to augment your crafting. A higher level crafting dragon can "give you" lodestones, crystals, essence, etc that you cannot craft yourself, but you as a high level lairshaper can make and apply these materials at optimal due to your level.

This however does NOT apply to biped schools (No this is not dragon vs. biped mongering, justa point)

Bipeds that take "weaving" for example, get skill in Leatherworking. I can make a tier III leather backpack as a 61st level weaver. This is because my leatherworking goes up with my weaving levels.

But...

As a dragon goes up in lairshaping, they don't get the next tier abilities to mine / harvest the resources they need to make things (I could be wrong on that) and their quest lines are not available.

-------------------------

Let's say a dragon has done all the 30th level crafting quests for DCRA but has not reached 40th level yet, but has reached 40th level in Lairshaping.

The question is:

Does a dragon get the next tier (tier III) of tool abilities? (Don't know myself)
Will a dragon be able to take quests to enhance their crafting of raw materials? (answer to this is NO)
Can dragons learn formulas to make these new tiers of resources if they don't meet the crafting levels of the next tier?

For about the 10th time now.. yes, DLSH gets all the same skills and all the same augments as DCRA. It's EXACTLY the same with 3 exceptions:

Spellcrafting, Scalecrafting and transmutation. I believe there's another one but I can't recall what it is, but it's not used in DLSH.

WHich is why I brought this up to begin with.

You can level up to 100 DLSH without touching DCRA beyond the initial 150 gemworking requirement (presuming you don't want to ascend at some point which is what takes out the whole idea that this is a prestige class since you have to get at least 28 crafting to ascend anyway.....) since all the skills go up the same amount for each level in both crafting classes.

The problem is, gathering becomes defunct at one point or another (for both classes) since we don't get the proper amount of skill points for gathering that bipeds get... having those quests keeps you a bit (not up to par with bipeds) more in-step and at least makes it so you can gather more than 1 per hit when you hit 100 and are trying to mine T5.

DLSH doesn't have that luxury.

[Mensar]

If they have the skill they can scribe the forms. I am not sure about the about the tool issue. I have never thought about that before. I would think you would get the processing tools not sure if you get the gathering tool abilities or not.

Again...

YES, it's EXACTLY THE SAME.

Come on folks.. I've typed this like 10 times

Exactly.. in every way, the same.

Which is why I made the suggestion to fix it. Same tools, same skills, same abilities, same level up rates, same exp, same rate of leveling, everything... the same.

[Mensar]

I posted this WAY back a long time ago when lairshaping first came to being.

What happens if DCRA becomes less than DLSH? Do the trainers still give you the quests to enhance your crafting abilities to keep up with your need to make those for your higher Lairshaping?

The answer is "No" as Lairshaping is a prestige class geared to augment your crafting. A higher level crafting dragon can "give you" lodestones, crystals, essence, etc that you cannot craft yourself, but you as a high level lairshaper can make and apply these materials at optimal due to your level.

This however does NOT apply to biped schools (No this is not dragon vs. biped mongering, justa point)

Bipeds that take "weaving" for example, get skill in Leatherworking. I can make a tier III leather backpack as a 61st level weaver. This is because my leatherworking goes up with my weaving levels.

But...

As a dragon goes up in lairshaping, they don't get the next tier abilities to mine / harvest the resources they need to make things (I could be wrong on that) and their quest lines are not available.

-------------------------

Let's say a dragon has done all the 30th level crafting quests for DCRA but has not reached 40th level yet, but has reached 40th level in Lairshaping.

The question is:

Does a dragon get the next tier (tier III) of tool abilities? (Don't know myself)
Will a dragon be able to take quests to enhance their crafting of raw materials? (answer to this is NO)
Can dragons learn formulas to make these new tiers of resources if they don't meet the crafting levels of the next tier?

For example.. Mensar is 58th level DLSH and 30th level DCRA and gathers at the same rate as my same-leveled DCRA on T3 resources and can create all of the T3 crafting components required to make a lair... completely independent of any DCRA help.

[Shian]

Stats are dependant on highest level and is not tied to any one school Justa, so yes, they get the next tool and the stats to go with it.

Can dragons learn formulas to make these new tiers of resources if they don't meet the crafting levels of the next tier?

Don't think so on this one. At least past a certain tier. Just as you can't gather resources at any sort of decency at T5, it can stand to be stated you probably can't smelt or stonework at any sort of decency either.

[Zexoin]

Well. This is like that by design. And thus there's nothing to fix. And calling people stupid really won't help, Mensar. I'm really disappointed.

[Mensar]

I think it's similar with bi-peds though. If you have a prestige class you can't go to the basic class trainer for quests can you? Lairshaping is for this sake a Prestige class. Just as you don't get exp from making Bronze bars anymore even though you still make tons you can't get quests if you are not in that school anymore.

I agree though that it stinks...expecially dimensional pocket as that isn't even a craft technically.

You don't get exp for making bars because you get exp for placing.. it's the only way to keep the exp on the same level for both crafting classes.

For example:
LS - Bar (no exp), Lodestone (no exp), Maelstone (some exp), placing (most exp)
DC - Bar (some exp), Scale (most exp)

It all evens out.

But, again, this is moot. They apparently feel it's WAI regardless of how much it makes sense to fix. So this is my last post on this thread.

[Mensar]

Well. This is like that by design. And thus there's nothing to fix. And calling people stupid really won't help, Mensar. I'm really disappointed.

Never said stupid.

Sorry you're disappointed.

And you said the very thing I've been complaining about with working as intended, lol.

DONE with this thread.

[Shian]

LS - Bar (no exp), Lodestone (no exp), Maelstone (some exp), placing (most exp)
DC - Bar (some exp), Scale (most exp)

If you aren't learning anything (xp) by making basic resources, what makes it okay to do the mastery quests and get better at something you don't learn from? That makes even less sense.....

I understand you don't want to do crafter because your stats are going up like crafter, but it's not the same.

[Mensar]

Sorry this turned out to be a rant, I don't think less of anyone that posted (not that my opinion matters anyway..... obviously).

But, hey.. look at the level of frustration here. I posted how many times about the same thing? Explained it in how many different ways? Even typed out equations and logical explanations that all came down to the very simple point: If one class is the same as another class, then both should be treated equally. Supported by my research on leveling, my observations over the last 6 months of DLSH vs DCRA with 3 case studies to append knowlege from.. and the culmination of my effort.... has led to nothing but a headache.

Sooooooo, that's pretty much it.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think I'll hang up the old "dare to care" button on this game.

Take care all.

[Shian]

But, hey.. look at the level of frustration here. I posted how many times about the same thing? Explained it in how many different ways? Even typed out equations and logical explanations that all came down to the very simple point: If one class is the same as another class, then both should be treated equally. Supported by my research on leveling, my observations over the last 6 months of DLSH vs DCRA with 3 case studies to append knowlege from.. and the culmination of my effort.... has led to nothing but a headache.

I'm not at all frustrated.

And its not the same- you're fooled into thinking they're the same when your stats are floating, not tied to any one class. you think you're geting better at gathering/smelting just because you are leveling. It's not tied to lairshaping at all.

I really don't get the logic you're trying to put out when

If you aren't learning anything (xp) by making basic resources, what makes it okay to do the mastery quests and get better at something you don't learn from? That makes even less sense.....

[Zexoin]

But, hey.. look at the level of frustration here. I posted how many times about the same thing? Explained it in how many different ways? Even typed out equations and logical explanations

But people answered you with logical arguments and you just ignored them, and that multiple times.

Supported by my research on leveling, my observations over the last 6 months of DLSH vs DCRA with 3 case studies to append knowlege from.. and the culmination of my effort.... has led to nothing but a headache.

Well, tome it look pretty much like you don't want to level DCRA, and to me it seems pretty lazy. It has always been that way. It is logical, and that's why it has been disigned that way. But there is some logic from your side too, maybe like Deth said, DLSH should only give lairshaping and crystalshaping skill, and no other one.

[AmonGwareth]

Mensar, it is the way it is not because they are the same and we're trying to frustrate players, but because neither school is intended to be done entirely without the other. If you want to do all of the work from raw ore through the application of finished products to your lair then we expect players to level both schools.

This is not a logic thing, it is a game design / balance thing.

[Shian]

Sniped.... :P

[Mensar]

Mensar, it is the way it is not because they are the same and we're trying to frustrate players, but because neither school is intended to be done entirely without the other. If you want to do all of the work from raw ore through the application of finished products to your lair then we expect players to level both schools.

This is not a logic thing, it is a game design / balance thing.

ANd yet, you can get through DCRA without leveling DLSH. And you can level DLSH without leveling DCRA. Not seeing how those two rely on each other.

Thanks for the response, but I get the underlying point. Not going to change. I hear you loud and clear

Thanks for posting though.

[Mensar]

But people answered you with logical arguments and you just ignored them, and that multiple times.



Well, tome it look pretty much like you don't want to level DCRA, and to me it seems pretty lazy. It has always been that way. It is logical, and that's why it has been disigned that way. But there is some logic from your side too, maybe like Deth said, DLSH should only give lairshaping and crystalshaping skill, and no other one.

It won't be balanced until we have a gathering school, then people will see what I'm talking about.

[Mensar]

I'm not at all frustrated.

And its not the same- you're fooled into thinking they're the same when your stats are floating, not tied to any one class. you think you're geting better at gathering/smelting just because you are leveling. It's not tied to lairshaping at all.

I really don't get the logic you're trying to put out when

Lost... I have (as I posted) 2 other dragons gathering side by side that are 60 DCRA and gathering the same tier and the same rate, as a 58 DLSH (30 DCRA). How does leveling have anything to do with it? They're all the same level and that hasn't changed for a month.

I need some aspirin.

[Mensar]

But people answered you with logical arguments and you just ignored them, and that multiple times.



Well, tome it look pretty much like you don't want to level DCRA, and to me it seems pretty lazy. It has always been that way. It is logical, and that's why it has been disigned that way. But there is some logic from your side too, maybe like Deth said, DLSH should only give lairshaping and crystalshaping skill, and no other one.

So, I'm lazy because I don't want to level this character in DCRA? I'll ignore the personal nature of the statement in the light that this has gotten heated in some of my posts too (never personal, but heated).

I mentioned earlier that you are in the whole "it was a grind, but everyone else did it" mentality. People on here have stated it's a pain, stated it wasn't fun, now you're stating I'm lazy for not doing it. Indicating you didn't like the experience either.

So why force it on someone else? (this is rhetoric)

I have 2 dragons that are DCRA and 1 that's DLSH and 3 others that will be, to some degree, DCRA. I'd prefer to have a viable character that's good at JUST DLSH that's what I choose to do since the tree is self-contained.

Be that because there is no gathering class or not, doesn't matter. The fact is, they're the same.

So what's wrong with DCRA that I don't want to do it for the 5th and 6th time?

It's boring, tedious, there's no sense of accomplishment and has very little to do with the spirit of a "game" when it's work. And, as has been pointed out several different ways, it's not fun.

So, the reality is.. (and will remain) if something is broken, no matter how few people notice that it's broken and no matter how much "lore" has been written to try to justify it, just fix it. If it's working as intended (as has been stated), it fails a simple logic test:

If A = B, Then A+quest = B+quest : TRUE
If A = B, Then A+quest = B: FALSE

That's as simple as I can make it.

And if they want to take out the gathering skills from DLSH, I'm good with that. Take them out of DCRA too and let's have them as a third crafting class. This makes sense to me if the two can't be handled evenly.

[Shian]

Okay... let's pretend they put in a gathering class.... You're still grinding two classes anyways! Who CARES if it's labeled crafter or gatherer?

It's boring, tedious, there's no sense of accomplishment and has very little to do with the spirit of a "game" when it's work. And, as has been pointed out several different ways, it's not fun.

You have to have some sort of work to do in the game. Have you ever played an easy game where there's no work? I did. Made max level and quit the game within three months because hey, I was bored.

[Hoberton]

Anyway, I give up. Logic has failed. I'm being told obvious logic is my 'opinion'. That's where I stop trying.

So this is my last post on this thread.

DONE with this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I think I'll hang up the old "dare to care" button on this game.

Take care all.

And yet the postings still happen again and again and again.

[Veruliyam]

Classic psychosis...