Things I wish were in Horizons.

[Ken]

[*]Maybe I just haven't seen some of this yet, if so...please excuse my newbiness.

1. Thieves and thieving.
2. Inns and rental housing and the need to/benefit of sleeping.
3. Character created quests which other characters could perform.
4. Player versus player (PvP). I know many people hate this, but many love it. I find myself in the healthy middle. I think PvP should be possible in the game, however there should also be limitations, such as:
   (a) Maybe a server with PvP enabled.
   (b) Maybe only on some islands/continents is PvP enabled.
   (c) Maybe PvP is enabled on all servers, but you cannot attack a character with normal 'attack' action, you must perform a distinctly different 'attack character' action.
   (d) Maybe do as described in point c, but simply have zones/regions where guards or all NPCs will come after you and either attack or you are fined or put in jail for assault or murder. I see no problem with having 'no man's land' and 'waste lands' and 'bad neighborhoods' and 'shady towns' where you may very well be attacked if you are notwise enough to pay attention, gather information or read signs with regional laws or warnings on them.
   (e) A form of PvP which would be very interesting would be the ability to subdue and capture a prisoner/victim.
   (f) Voluntary character dueling, at a minimum, needs to be available.

[/list]


I believe these elements are missing and would greatly increase the enjoyment of the game.

Please, if you agree or disagree with my thoughts, feel free to reply. I hope that player feedback helps shape Horizons content in a way that leads to its greater and greater success. That is something that makes my own gaming more fun, after all...better and more interesting game with more people and variety in it.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

I totally agree on the thieving and inns/sleeping, especially if you could have the option of perhaps a higher priced room, that upon sleeping in you lose death points.
I'm new too so if this stuff is already in excuse me....being able to be poisoned, cursed or diseased. And potions for healing, poison, disease, etc.
The quest idea is good...pvp could be good if its under proper supervision so you don't have super high level characters pking people. Bad neighboorhoods are good ideas for pvp, or like pirate islands, or bandit areas (the hood, haha).

[Henry Redacre]

I too am very interested in a "Rogue" type of character class, but there is a difficulty that arises with both Rogues and PvP in the world of Istaria....

Within the world of Istaria, the "game" centers around a massive struggle between the Living Races, and the Withered Aegis. If players were given the ability to attack each other, it would undermine the entire "struggle." Since the Living Races are supposed to be more or less united in their fight against the Aegis, having folks who attack other folks, would quickly brand them as outcasts who would essentially be viewed as "helping the Aegis", by trying to weaken the ranks of the Living Races.

While of course, this could be explained away through in-game Lore for all the Role-Players, (One faction of folks think the Living Races should launch an all out assault on the Aegis, while another faction thinks the Aegis should be studied and watched first, and then attack once they have proper knowledge of weaknesses, etc, thus creating a rift between the Living Races, and thus, they have the ability to attack each other.) and the non-RPers may not even care if its explained or not, it would require a sort of shift in the entire fundamental design and concept AE has for their game. This is entirely up to them if they would ever decide to make that kind of move towards changing that.

As for the Inns, and requiring sleep, how could that be implemented in a fun way I wonder? You cant really force a player to have their character "do nothing" (i.e. sleep) for a few hours, thus, disabling a player's play time. Also, you cant really tell a player "8 Hours has passed while you slept." while simply darkening the screen for a moment or two, because really, time hasn't passed at all for any other players who are standing outside of the Inn.

Now, imagine if you are out with some friends, in the middle of the Deadlands, doing some hunting. You've been out there for a few hours maybe. You realize during the middle of a particularly nasty fight, that you've reached the limit for how long you can be awake before you're required to sleep. Now, your stats start going down because you need to sleep, and the fight starts going south. So you and your hunting party break off the attack, reach a safe spot somewhere, while you recall, run to an Inn, click a button while the screen goes dark for a second, and youre considered "well rested." So now you have to run all the way back out to your hunting party, and hope they are still alive, while theyre sitting there, wasting time, hoping they dont get killed as well. I think that would be a major pain for anyone who had to do it. And if it were setup where there wouldnt be any penalty for not sleeping, then no one would do it anyway.

However, the player created quests, I would really like to see that come into being in-game.

~ Henry

[Ken]

PvP and thieving: We have person versus person and thieving in any society, that doesn't make the society as a whole "corrupt". I do not see the logic in the argument presented. When I play an RPG, I want realism in certain areas, and these are a couple of those areas.

As far as sleeping/resting goes, again...some element of realism is *good* in an RPG. Picture this, fatigue (as you describe) sets in. What's wrong with that? You can continue to fight, you are simply slower and or weaker. Seems reasonable. How would resting work? I imagine something like this... Your character already "rests" when you sign-out, but maybe if you signed out after getting a room to rest in, you not only are primed at next sign-in, but also have benefits that give you a boost for a bit after resting. I dunno, there is some system that could be added that would enhance the game, imo.

Character created quests....yes, good they are, fun they would be to make, fun they would be to execute, more content fueled by paid players' characters....yes, is good. I think something similar to the Consigners would work for quests from characters. You are allowed to buy a signpost/bulletin board. Decide whether only you or you and others can post on it. You can only put the board on land you own or otherwise rent, etc. Of course there would have to be something in it for the character taking the quest, as well as the character giving the quest.

[medweasel]

Those are some very good ideas. I agree, some type of Rogue or Thief would be a cool addition. We have them in every society, so why not Istaria. Or we could take it a step further and make an assassin type infiltrator class, designed to be a solo'ist whose primary job is to infiltrate enemy lines, the Aegis and cause dissension and problems from within. Everything from picking off creatures one by one or key figures in the enemys command line. I know we already have a scout, but I'm talking about someone who can actually get in and bring more crucial info back. Something like that, designed with stealth might be cool.
Also, the thing about sleeping might be okay. We are after all the gifted, therefore we don't age or sleep, except for possibly the dragons? But dragons can stay awake for years, and of course they can sleep for years. But what about mental fatigue? Maybe have specially designed inns for people to meet and rest in. The benefits could be, getting rid of death points or even certain types of diseases or things like that. Kind of like how Star Wars Galaxies does with the entertainers, instead of watching an entertainer to get rid of fatigue and certain types of diseases and such, you would have to go to an inn and rest it off. And, no we wouldn't have to sleep for 8 hours or so like in other rpg's. They could set it up where there's some kind of specially designed beds or even a magically enhanced machine that you rest on that takes only moments to refresh your mind. I don't know, something like that may work and stay within the parameters of the game and time.
I would also love to see DRAGON CAVES. I know that's been talked about for a while so I won't go on about it, but come on, we need them. I don't wanna have to purchase a house that does me little good just so I'll have a place of my own. Which I'll probably end up doing eventually.
On the PVP issue, I'm happy with not having it. I'm not a fan of PVP and it only causes problems in my experience. But if you enjoy it. Then maybe a seperate server designed for it would be cool.
Also, I wish they'd design some different type of solo'ing missions. That's where the rogue with stealth would come in handy. Create missions based on logic and stealth instead of just pure hack and slash. And give some kind of solo'ing bonus for it or some type of rewards.
Im a big fan of solo'ing.I just prefer to solo instead of grouping and unfortunately there's not alot of games out there that will let you do it. So far, I'm having a great, but challenging time solo'ing my dragon. I know, people will say, why do you play an online game if you just want to solo. Well, I like the randomness of playing online games. I like to see other people running by and doing things. I do enjoy talking to people, just not constantly and yes I do enjoy grouping at times. It's fun to help others with a quest or just showing someone which way to go. All of these things make an online game for me much more enjoyable even though I do prefer to solo. Unfortunately that means that I usually suck atgrouping for a while in a game. For example I grouped my dragon for the first time with someone yesterday who offered to help me xp and finish a quest. I died 3 times and got them killed once before I got the hang of it, hehehehe. They were very nice and didn't mind. They helped me finish the quest and I gained a level out of it. It's things like this that I enjoy. People helping others, not because they have to, but because they want to. Thanks Dart. Sorry for the death, hehehe.
Well, I'll continue to stay with Horizons unless my credit card runs out. I'm always having trouble with my credit card company. I wish they had game cards everywhere. Also, it would be nice if theyd take online checks or something like that. More payment options are always a great idea. I'm going to get a prepaid one I think so I won't have any more problems.
One final note. As far as the community goes. I hope nothing changes. This community is the nicest out there. You'll have been very helpful and friendly and I thank you for that. Thanks for making my gaming experience fun. :)

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

bump (good suggestions)

[Gilresk]

There is a rogue school in the game, at least in theory. You can see it listed on several items under item restrictions, but it was never enabled. I'm not sure what the current status is on it, it may never actually be implemented.

Characters in Horizons don't need to sleep because they are gifted. However inns or nice places to rest would be nice that could possibly speed up the rate of deathpoint loss. I don't think sleep should ever be needed though. Unless you intend on reguarly playing for over 24 hours straight, I think there should be enough downtime for most characters when you can consider them sleeping.

I think Character created quests were supposed to be implemented a while back I think, but it never seemed to happen. I think it would take more resources than they currently have and the existing list of bugs and features they are working on. Also I have seen a few player run events/quests that seemed to work fine. It didn't use the in-game quest system, but most of that can be covered well enough through role-play.

PVP is just not happening in Horizons. It's been fiercely debated over forever. What it comes down to is the game was designed around Player vs. Enemy. That can't really be changed well now without causing more problems. Also a majority of the hardcore playerbase in Horizons is all against it, mostly because they came to Horizons just to escape it in other games. I've also seen plenty of PVP conflict role-played out on Order, which I think should be enough of an option for most without upsetting the rest of the playerbase.

[Ken]

Nothing is impossible and nothing is set in stone. If Horizons would prosper more by having true RPG implemented PvP with safegaurds and rules and regions, it would add _tons_ of playability to the game. As it is, the game is suffering from some Diablo-esque badness...such as never ending spawning hack and slash without plot or options. Mostly dumb creatures that don't attack unless provoked (how realistic).

Basically, this game seems to have *tons* of possibilities and capabilities that are untapped, all in the name of making it a sequential power game hack fest for people affraid of being attacked by anything (other players or creatures). I worry that my interest in this game will be about 3 weeks. I am making my thoughts known about what could make my interest be closer to 1 to 3 years. If anyone values such input and values my monthly payments, they may want to consider my input, as well as that of other paying customers. Since there are multiple servers (and hopefully more in the future, again), there is no reason to not add things that scare some players and keep them on certain servers...for those of us that want something *INTERESTING*.

Look forward to a new fan-site soon, where people can discuss what is wanted byin Horizons, which isn't in it already. Paying customers of a subscription service such as this with ever evolving content and rules implementations have a right to voice their desires and not be automatically shot down by over zealous fans who envision themselves as advocates for the designers/developers. The best way to lose customers is to not listen to them, or better yet...tell them there is no way their hopes matter.

[Gilresk]

While Horizons is subject to change being an MMORPG, PVP doesn't seem to be part of the plan of the developers. Also as I've mentioned a good amount of the hardcore playerbase hates PVP. Not just bad implementations, but the very concept itself. If you can't be kept interested in Horizons for more than 3 weeks because there is no PVP, well, it might just not be the game for you.

As far as dumb creatures that don't attack unless provoked, have you ever left the starter islands? I know you mentioned you were new, so it's possible. On the starter islands that is the case, but everywhere else the mobs can be fairly vicious. Most wolves and gruoks will charge you for just looking at them funny, and also bring along a good half dozen or so of their buddies.

I really don't see any need for PVP. If you want more challenging combat, you should be asking the developers to improve the enemy AI instead of asking to be able to fight others. For dramatic duels between players I think roleplaying it out would be far more descriptive and interesting.

[Ken]

I acknowledge I am still on atraining island. But I have watched my wife play on mainland and its not quite as scary as you described it, that I can tell. Even so, to make an RPG where it is disallowed by the physics of nature to strike at another player is innane. If some people want it and it can be enabled on some servers and/or some locations on a server, your assertions hold no weight.

Again I will attempt to describe the enjoyment that can be had at bounties on certain scoundel characters due to their deeds, the _roleplay_ involved in properly determining the nature of a region prior to running headlong into it and getting ambushed by characters, etc. The idea that your enemy *MUST* be an AI controlled drone is a terrible plight on a game and yes, affects the span of interest many people will have for the game. As the nature of an MMORPG is to maximize player population (more revenue), bring on the servers with more liberal rules. ***PLEASE*** Then if I want to risk players tag teaming me, I can risk it. If you don't want to...then you can stay with Alice in neat-o Wonderland.

I'm out, I will push my desires in my sig and my eventual [anti?] fan site, since posting here gets eternal denials and grief from accolytes.

[Gilresk]

It is true that not allowing PVP does cut into some of what we should be allowed to act out in character, there is also the theory that almost all the gifted should be a lot more focused on harming the Withered Aegis, and not other players, so such cases would be extremely rare. Also it is I think a worthy sacrifice in losing the ability to harm others in RP context for the sake of preventing there being a way for players to grief other players.

While the nature of a MMORPG is to have a good player population, that doesn't mean it need conform to the mass market. Horizons is more of a niche market game. It appeases to a certain group of people, crafters especially. That's what keeps it different from a lot of other MMORPGs as well. Sure Diablo II and Everquest and Lineage appeal to a large market of people, but it doesn't appeal to too many Horizons players, and I think those of us that want the kind of game Horizons is, deserve to have that option. Just because we aren't the majority of the MMORPG market doesn't mean our preferences don't count.

[Ken]

Wanted, one recipe for disaster. Name of recipe: Lowest Common Denominator

Have you not read a word I typed? I am not saying turn on PvP to enable PKing everywhere and to everyone. Wake up, read what I suggest and note that it is about expanding the options and including more players (subscribers). You can stay in your happy place, and the rest of us can go to another server and have fun. Yeah, do you think AE is happy with a small niche and filing chapter 13 reorg? I doubt it. They should wake up and understand exactly what you just said and see the flaws in the approach!

Duh. [8-)]

[Gilresk]

I know you're trying to suggest a means of PVP that's more acceptable to the players of Horizons, but I'm trying to explain that it's been suggested many times before, and it never goes over well. It would require a lot of development time to get implemented properly, and then to keep balanced. Also we just had a huge server merger, and have just also merged the EU servers, I don't think AE is thinking of adding servers at this point, especially not to gamble with trying to gather a PVP audience, which I must say, is a rather fickle audience that likes to jump from one game to another.

I think AE is happy with having a niche market, so long as it is a dependable market that meets the financial needs to keep them going. Their main financial problem is that they over-estimated what the size of their market would be, and then kept running with too many servers and staff for too long. If you also look into the history of the game, they also wasted two years or so of developement time that eventually got scrapped due to office politics.

It is nice to wish for things, but you have to keep in mind that they still have a lot of bugs and problems to fix, and that once those are done they're going to focus on what will keep the majority of their current players happy, which isn't necessarily what will make the majority of the MMORPG community happy.

[Ken]

And therein lies the problem. They shouldn't focus on keeping the current X number of customers happy (after having raped them of cash for a beta quality game). They should focus on making a truly grand experience that invites as many players as possible into the game for a rebirth of the platform. The mode Horizons is in right now is like the box of cookies getting smaller and smaller for the same price (or even a premium price). That will not only not attract more purchases, it will turn existing customers away to other alternatives.

If you want your beloved game to die, then keep up the excuses for the staus quo. If you want it to grow and get better, advocate attracting more paying customers. Isn't this concept easy to grasp? I am in software development, so please don't lecture me about bugs and features and schedules and finances. I get it, and I can play a game and see what untapped potential there is already there. Additionally, balance in the game is a joke already anyway...so, I'd like to know how PvP would imbalance it. Come on, you sleep off a recall (essentially a resurrection) and so you are immortal. Creatures give more damage simply because you bought better armor (I have seen this cheese factor at work), systems like this are an attempt to rebalance something whose balance is too far gone to be saved and properly balanced (as Blizzard skillfully does with Warcraft/Starcraft games).

Hell, I grew up in Phoenix, if I still lived there, I'd work to help make this game better on weekends on the cheap...but I am too far away to offer such assistance at the mo. hehe

[Gilresk]

I really don't think that pissing off your entire current market of players is a good way to attract new customers. People already complain about minor changes to the game environment, even if it's just moving around resources. You think players will be happy if they decided to change the fundamental gameplay?

Also you say you work in software development, but I find it hard to believe if you think that restructuring the game entirely, to suit an entirely different market, would be a simple task that would take little to no resources. The reason games are in development for years is just to plan those things out beforehand.

I also don't see how you can say that horizons is getting smaller and smaller, especially after having only played for a few weeks. I've played this game since it was released and only seen more and more added to it. I'm also not sure how you are relating balance in the game to recalling (which I assume you mean the weak death penalty). I'm also not sure about creatures giving more damage when you wear better armor. If anything that's a new bug, but I haven't seen it happen myself.

To get somewhat close back to the topic of this thread. Please give me a good reason as to how PVP in any way would fit into the storyline of the world that is Istaria, given that it is supposed to be a land of people united in the common goal to fight back the Withered Aegis, and how fighting against a player would be any different than fighting against a well scripted enemy AI.

[Ken]

Geez, there is no getting through and now you call me a liar. Dude, I am telling you that it would not take a major overhaul to allow PvP and set a region property to allow or disallow PvP. Additionally, I never said to piss off existing customers. Is english your 5th language or something? I said present the option for those who want it and keep talking about keeping it regional or partitioned by server. Wake up and please attempt to understand reasoning. Guess what, games are not in development for X yearsto figure out whether to have or not to have PvP. They are in development for the time period they are to create and/or augment the physics, rules and AI engines and such and to develop the content in a coherant manner (as well as to create dialogs and UI elements). These things have little to do with enabling PvP unless new UI elements, scripting, triggers or data structure refinements of the character objectswere needed. These things would still be relatively minor and I'd be willing to bet are already mostly supported.

I base what I say not only on my knowledge but info from a friend Ihave that has played Horizons for a while and has told me about some of the elements I have not yet experienced. Regardless, I don't have to know everything about what is coming up when what I have played is an indication of things to come and my suspicions are confirmed by information on these forums.

PvP, PvP...you are so stuck on PvP. Isn't it into your skull yet that to some of us it is completely illogical and unreasonable for the act of slashing a character to be simply not a doable action in-game. It ruins the game to a degree. It would be like having skateboards in the game and that was the only way to get around, walking was not physically possible. There is a huge degree of intrigue and complexity missing in Horizons due to the limited amount of character influence over the gaming of other characters. You may love this fact. I do not. Others do not. So while we disagree about what we like (and I HATE PKers), why force me to accept the lowest common denominator and conform to what you think is right? Give use the basic choise. Give me a PvP enabled server, or make an island called "Tournament" or "The Pit" or "Mosh" or "Gladiator Arena"where PvP is enable. Or something! You do not have to go, and I will not even invite you...don't worry!

[imported_Ssilmath]

Ken, I think you are the small minority here when it comes to PvP...sure it would be cool, but totally unnescisary and a waste of the Devs time...

I have RpPed out a whole lot of fights, and believe you me, they werre far better than any actual /duel or whatever...Right now, then entire point of the game is to defeat the WA, and that is what the game is geared for...

And why in the world should I haveinfluence over another persons gaming other than the the prices I charge for armor? That is ludicrous, one of the reasons people play HZ is so that they don't have others controlling how fast they level, what they do or anything else like that...

I appreciate that you are looking for ways to improve the game, Ken...But please, listen to those of us who have played for 6, 10 or more months and know are a bit wiser...Keep the ideas coming, but if someone shoots it down, understand that it is experience talking, not someone being cruel, mean or just attacking you...

You may have 'a' experienced friend, but I wonder if his experience is as long and as full as mine, Gilresks, or any number of posters here who have been discussing these issues for months...Not attacking you, just putting in my two cents...

[Ken]

Here is the issue in my eyes. Who appointed any one or a group of players as preachers of the faith? If I want to make suggestions about what would make the game better in my opinion and you disagree...then why do more than disagree. I simply respond to the disagreement, as I began the topic. The interesting thing here is that you think that the length of time you've played this game makes you my superior and worthy of determining what is and is not acceptable or likely or better. Choice is always better. I will play this game more and see what fun I can get out of it, but I cannot see staying too very long or suggesting it to friendswith elements missing and players that have nothing more to do with the future of this game than I do trying to "shoot down" my opinions as if their word is the word of the company's CEO.

Get a life.

[imported_Ssilmath]

O.o Boy, you've really taken what I said out of context...

See, I could write anything nice and gracious or nasty and cruel, but I know you will probablysee it as something personal no matter what...

You missed me saying that your ideas have just as much merit as mine, but because I know the issues that have been discussed and argued over for the last seven months now, and a lot of other posters for longer, I am in a position to say "Hey, that idea won't work and a very large portion of people don't want it at all"

So ease back on that throttle there, listen with a little more open mind, and try to enjoy the HZ that exists...The PvP element is 'missing' on purpose, and if that is why you joined, then perhaps HZ isn't right for you...But you should try and see why so many of us still think it is fun, with no PvP at all...

Perhaps, a year or so down the road when the game is completely stable, has the content that it was designed to have and lots of happy people playing it, then the devs might consider a PvP arena...

But right now, they have lots of other things lots more important than satisfying a few customers demands for an element that HZ was never designed to have...

[Gilresk]

Is english your 5th language or something?

Thanks Ken, the insults are really nice in getting your point across ;-)

Okay, here is why I think it would in fact take a lot of development time to do this. Firstly in order to enable PVP they would have to have some way of defining who you can attack. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure right now it's mostly just a switch, or boolean flag as it were, either good or evil. If you're good, as all the gifted are right now, you can't attack other good people, and area affect heals/buffs affect all other good people in the area, and not evil ones. It works the same way with evil, evil can't hurt evil. Fairly simple system, but how does that work in PVP? is one person designated good, one evil? I don't think it's a relative system, more of a global flag for the character. So unless they planned in something more complex from the start, it will take a lot of re-writing of code. They could possibly treat all people in your group as getting the postive buffs/heals, and all not as being evil, but again, I'm fairly certain that's not how they have it set up right now.

Now where it gets worse is yes, they start adding in that code. As much as I love the work AE does, I know they make mistakes. Most likely we'd end up with a few weeks as they start coding this where we can no longer heal others who aren't group, or possibly worse, and possibly rampant PVP not where it's supposed to be. Then once we have these PVP areas, people will start complaining about schools not being balanced against each other, which will take even more development time away from fixing and improving other aspects of the game. Then they'll complain about being restricted to the island and we'll have to change that as well.

In the end what it comes down to is, PVP is like a strip club. It's good for the economy but, we dont' really want it in our neighborhood. Or in this case game, because we don't like the kind of people it might attact.

I would still like a good explanation of how PVP would fit into the lore of Istaria. While a particular player might want to hit another player, most likely his character won't because the gifted in Istaria are supposed to be heroes united. Much the same way as the characters in CoH (as much as I hate mentioning the game). We do have a few exceptions to this, but we role-play it out in dialog and as Ssilmath says, it usually is a lot more enjoyable. Maybe, if they allowed people to play as the Withered Aegis, it might be reasonable (much like the very original designs of the game, which had alignments), but at this point that would be a completely different game.