Economic Revival and Enablement

[QuO]

Some time ago someone or a group perhaps decided that it was too easy to make coin in Istaria. So they nerf'd the prices and put limits on profitable quantities that could be sold to the pawn brokers. Perhaps that decision was based on a hope that the economy would fix itself by guiding Istarians towards more trade with one another (hence the NPC ouside the compound where Nadia is located). Not a bad idea in its day but "its day" has come and gone. I tend to think that economies will fix themselves if left alone for a while and only "tweaked" occasionally and when absolutely necessary. However this one tweak was a HUGE one and the chances of it fixing itself are hampered by the current lack of numbers. There are not enough of us to "naturally" fix an economy of artifically inflated prices.

Basically what I'm trying to suggest is that the Pawn Broker and Vendor NPCs need to be more an integral part of the economy and not so much stuck with fixed prices. If demand is low, prices should drop. If demand is very high then they should go up. Fixing them so long ago without adjustments in not helpful. Yes, I do realize that Nadia's prices were FINALLY lowered accordingly and thank you. However Nadia is not the only part of the equation.

It is time to reverse that decision to nerf pawn prices I think. Adjust the selling prices on NPCs as you feel necessary but PLEASE allow Istarians to earn better coin selling to Pawn Brokers as well. If you can't see that reasoning then what about allowing us to build higher tier Pawn Brokers with less resources and that don't take up so much space!!

I am not saying that the entire mechanic of having the broker drop the buying price a bit for each additional item is altogether bad but I am suggesting that either the prices need to start higher or the decline in buying price per unit sold needs to be lessened somewhat. That decline is so steep as to make anyone else's sale of that same item on that broker pretty much worthless for the day. "Worth less" is ok, worthless is not and it does not take so much decline before I consider the transaction worthless so as to not even bother with it.

Thanks for reading, I know you are also concerned and will give proper consideration.

[Steele]

QuO, this is in no way directed at you personally - it's a topic close to my heart tho, so if I seem passionate about it that's why.

Hrm... this is tricky, and a slippery slope if not careful. We all know that MMO economies are harder to balance than a hatchling on a tightrope, and the game currently has little-to-nothing in the way of moneysinks. If money has an "easier" time entering the world, and doesn't have a reasonable means to exit the world, the value of the currency decreases and you get economic inflation.

Next thing you know people will actually pay 100s for an Expert Spell Shard form instead of just laughing at it (a recent, yet ludicrous example)... and what good would that do, really?

I mean, yeah, some characters might be able to afford a plot sooner - and that does make us all feel warm & fuzzy - but after that single major expenditure, what is there, really, for any player to spend money on? Tech components, hunter trophies and paying for construction services are really all that you can expect to spend cash on, I suppose, but that cash is simply changing hands - it's not leaving the world.

The Vielo are gone, so no more dumping 1-2g each on Master level formulas (as much as I wanted to set them on fire, the Vielo did serve a valuable, unsung purpose). There's no meaningful form of item decay in the world (and folks can go ahead and lynch me for harping on that; I really don't care). There are no NPC consumables to purchase. Portal fees are a joke (and taxing transportation is a poor bandaid that will only piss people off, not offer a long-term solution), and the few overpriced NPC food recipe components are religiously avoided by most Confectioners with common sense.

No, I believe money should not be easier to obtain. Currently, once you hit L100 in just about any crafting or adventuring class it becomes MUCH easier for an intelligent player to gain cash. I've been seeing loads of Expert forms and Ter 5/6 tech components being sold to Order's pawnbrokers of late - and because they are sold as many seperate, low quantity item stacks, they are not hit by diminishing returns! With older names continuing to return, combined with the recent influx of high level Unity folks (both very good things), Order's Aughundell consigner is now flooded with Expert formulas and Tier5 techs that are simply rotting there; there's a severe oversupply of Tier5 loot and I don't see that changing anytime soon. The only items left of some value are a few select rare L100 stat crystals, the mob-dropped "epic" weapons, and the super-rare chromas.

The steps needed to truly breathe life into the game's economy would likely be large in both quantity & scope (and of course unpopular because it would make the game either "harder" or "inconvenient" for players), not to mention being a treatise deserving their own thread... but they would allow the devs to tweak the flow of money into the world without as much fear of long-term consequence, because they could always adjust the exit paths on the back side to compensate.

Absent those changes and as annoying as it might seem to generate money presently, I think it would be highly perilous to open the cash spigot further.

[Steele]

what about allowing us to build higher tier Pawn Brokers with less resources and that don't take up so much space!!

Now that I definitely second... the required resources and building footprint are a tad excessive for a single NPC, even if he does pay out a bit higher than racial PBs. Maybe sublet the space out to displaced Gnomes?

[velveeta]

i am in agreement with steele. especially on blight, there is just no reason to have more than port money.......
understand, i am not in support of changing or even introducing an economy in blight. i just very much agree that there is no need to introduce any more money making items (critters like blights dropping coin, etc) and a great need to find creative and acceptable ways to make players with money spend it.....
but i do like the idea of item decay.......as a uber blk and arm, i like the idea of having to repair and/or replace items, especially teched stuff.
xstals should also be degradable.....
except construction stuff - this should be excluded from decay or at least at a much lower rate than tools and weapons, etc.....building are usually meant to last (well maybe not tents)....however, i am all for a monthly or regular maintain 'fee' on buildings - either in coin or in construct materials applied....

[Steele]

Thanks, Velveeta. I like the plot upkeep idea in principle, but there are two main complications I see with maintenance fees, luxury/property taxes and such...

First and foremost, what do you do with players who are unable to or choose not to pay? For example, after all the insane work it takes to build T6 structures, would the owner/guild/etc. suddenly lose access to them or be unable to use the storage space? Would the community lose access to expert machines? It would be VERY hard to add a penalty to give it "teeth"; perhaps adding incentive instead? How about: all structures get a 20% boost (storage capacity, added skill, more potent tavern effect, etc.) if the Imperial property taxes are paid. If there is a lapse in upkeep, they still function as they were built (ie, return standard beginner/jman/expert machine skill and tavern food consumption bonuses, bulk storage limits for silos, halls and libraries would shrink back to normal - possibly "overstuffing" individual structures in the process). Note: item stack capacity limits would be excluded from any incentive/bonus plan.

The other main complication is: how do you keep players from getting caught up in a cycle where they feel all they do is grind cash to maintain their plot? Maybe making the upkeep optional (as above) would be enough - because if it isn't "mandatory with a negative consequence", then they don't have to do it. But of course, if they don't have to do it, that kinda defeats the purpose of putting in the moneysink... so it comes down to: would enough people pursue the bonus to make it worth investing the development manpower (raw code, UI work, etc.) to implement?

I wonder...

[velveeta]

hehee anyone on blight will tell you i am a fighter, not a thinker, steele!

i agree that it will have to be some sort of incentive (after all, property taxes and values are mandatory here in rl, and there are still peeps who do not pay them or upkeep the property).
but, just like in real life, perhaps - in so far off future when horizons is so together that there is a waiting list to get in - there will come a day when non-maintained plots will be subject to loss of use due to decay. as i say, it would be a long slow process......think how long it takes a property in rl to degrade to the point of uselessness.......

anyway, i would see it as a way to maybe provide coin and work for lower tier crafters....the creation of 'crafting guilds' offering specialized crafting (the masons guild would provide all tiers of stoneworkers, etc) available for contractor work........

just a small pipe dream, steele! do not expect anything of the nature to ever be implemented, but it is nice to muse about!!

yeah you are right, lc - i was thinking more the lines of tools and armour and weapons, but if you have it on one thing, you kinda gotta have it on everything....
well, i told you i was a fighter, not a thinker!

[lightning claw]

Item Decay BAD!!!!!


Sorry i agree with you parshaly but about item decay i don't sorry i got a blood talon and a pv scale and it would rune my way of making coin throw gather ing comps

Players would just stop teching there gear and use blighted stuff that drops

[Steele]

Heh, 30minute edit limit got me.

Ya know Velveeta, this might be kinda neat... on a related note, I've often thought an "a la carte" bulk increase or something would be awesome - why pay for extra bulk that I don't need right now? And why build another silo or 3 for a specific project just because I'm going to need a bit more space than I have?

Something like ability to buy an extra 5k bulk per silo (in 1k increments) would be sweet; the increase lasts for 7days from purchase and could be renewed anytime - renewal would bounce the timer back up to 7days.

Could implement something simliar (but more expensive) for guild halls, libraries, racial and human houses once you draw up a pricing scheme for one structure type just customize it to make it apply to the others. Wonder how hard it would be to implement...

[Steele]

i got a blood talon and a pv scale and it would rune my way of making coin throw gather ing comps

Players would just stop teching there gear and use blighted stuff that drops

The point though, Lightningclaw, is that if weapon/armor/tool/cargo decay was ever implemented (via charges or whatever similar system) the devs could feel confident enough to increase tech component drop rates to something actually reasonable (maybe something like 12-18%?). Right now, many tech component drop rates are silly-low because they know once tech'd items are created, not only does it stay in the world forever but it gets passed down from character to character when the owner outgrows it.

People wouldn't stop using tech'd gear - in fact, more people would probably use tech'd gear if the comps dropped at a more reasonable rate (Red/Blue Vex Fringe, anyone?)... but it's similar to the cash situation: unless the economy was in a severe deflationary state, no responsible dev team would simply raise loot drop rates without guaranteeing a reasonable outlet for those items to leave the world.

[rizo/nawkia]

No thanks on the item decay....flyff had that an i hated it...

[ScaleIron]

When I played Dragons Gate, we had a sort of item decay system.

The more an item was used, the closer it got to being in need of repair. It makes sense, because you're using that sword to hack at a golem made of something just as resistant. By the time you're done with it, the sword you were using would probably be in need of some serious care, if not a complete repair.

But in DGate, if something was damaged and we wanted to keep it (and plenty of people had custom items that cost quite a bit of gold), we had to get it repaired. It's like owning a car; it breaks, you spend a little money to fix it or fork up a lot of money to buy a new one. (My Dragon character on DGate was a stickler for armor upkeep. She was the classic TANK, and if her armor became damaged or, worse yet, broken, she'd be in a horrible situation... but then, we had PvP too, and that was also part of my RP with her. Nothing sucked more than being coldcocked in the back of the head while walking out of the smithy with no armor).

I've noticed that a lot of people don't want realism when it comes to games. Personally, I do, because it makes things more interesting and you actually have to work on something. However, people want a sword that can kill thousands of iron golems and never dull, they want one little human to be able to pwn a full grown Dragon on their own, and they want buildings that never need maintenance.

Unfortunately, money sometimes has a lot to do with realism. And like others said, it has to go someplace for it to be of any real value. I say find more things to spend it on, like equipment upkeep.

Example, DGate had:
-equipment upkeep
-rent on some buildings
-training fees, if you wanted to move up to the next level
-a decent economy (we had a fairly active marketplace. Gems were rare and good for selling, tomes were more rare and provided training boosts, several characters got the ability to "create custom items" by becoming merchants. This was also a RP heavy community as well, so while my Dragon would turn up her nose as some nice gear and tomes, she'd pounce on anything that involved diamonds or the color white... or bones. You know, for gnawing on.)
-Multiple festivals, which always involved money for either the arena, gifts, clothes, etc.
-Healers. Because they charged money. Also tied in were rune rechargers. The deal was you had runes tattooed on you to use spells. As the potency of the base rune decreased, the ability to use the spell vanished or "ran out". You had to recharge the rune. You also had to buy new runes to get new spells.
-Food. Because it's impossible to sneak around and hide in the shadows while your stomach is able to mimic the sounds of an angry bear, sometimes at a similar volume.

I personally have no problem with item decay and building upkeep. I created a biped mostly to play around with the crafting, and sort of have her dabble in a bit of everything before finding something we like. Her being a blacksmith and weapon/armor smith, while involving something like item decay, would actually give her a job of some sort. And look, not only is that character and player interaction, but you have an economy too! I say, in the long run, everyone wins.

Doesn't mean everyone else will believe they win, though. Hrm.

[Shian]

NO DECAY!


Decay is an extremely annoying money sink. Nothing like having your weapon or armor un-equip itself leaving you to die.

We already have a building upkeep- it's called a subscription. You can't just stick something in game like this that wasn't there before. If I had to pay coin to keep all my structures or something, you can be *very* sure I'd build it differently.

Not to mention "key plots" Crafter hubs. Can you imagine if the silos and machines the community used for grinding tiers were gone because someone went on vacation for a week and did not pay upkeep?

It might be marginally okay for structure upkeep if we did not depend on each other in this game so greatly, but we do so really all you're hurting with that one is every other player that is not the plot owner.

Also, coin is pretty much worthless. I can't seem to pay any amount that will get me the techs I need or the rare hoard items I needed and hunted for four weeks and gave up for. I'd like to see the vielo return really, 'cause as it stands, it's difficult to get dropped items.

[LOVWYRM]

NO DECAY

I see it as an employment creating measure- nothin`else!!

[Vlisson]

IF the devs would implement an item decay they should use it with NEW forms/techs... (maybe stronger versions?)

but if existing gear would decay it would be a real frustrating thing form me (a no-go)

revive the economy? no chance!

fix/change the loot (beetles?)
fix/change the multiclassing (1 char can do everything alone?)
add something worth to spend INGAME money
create a demand for all tier stuff (its not very motivating to craft for the pawn? would it be greater to supply an player? and EARN money for your effort/work?)

[ScaleIron]

create a demand for all tier stuff (its not very motivating to craft for the pawn? would it be greater to supply an player? and EARN money for your effort/work?)

but if existing gear would decay it would be a real frustrating thing form me (a no-go)

Let me see if I understand you correctly. You suggest creating a demand... without a need... because nothing is decaying? If there is a high supply (i.e. lots of gear or resources, but it's not being completely used up or "decaying") there will be low, if not no, demand.

fix/change the multiclassing (1 char can do everything alone?)

This makes me think of restricting bipeds (since Dragons only have three classes) in how many classes/schools they can join.

People will be screeching "no multiclass restrictions" just as loudly and obnoxiously as "no decay".

Now tell me, without using huge capital letters and in a color that will not burn itself into my retinas, how you create a decent demand for an infinite supply. Or, following the same directions, how you could impliment class restrictions without threatening the supply of game subscriptions.

[LOVWYRM]

Now tell me, without using huge capital letters and in a color that will not burn itself into my retinas,

*sigh* sorry- it just came over me- it fits to my scales

[ScaleIron]

Actually, the purple you used is a shade I can tolerate. Any brighter, though, and my brain might have twitched.

The red, however, leaves a sharp after image. Bleh.

>.>

[Favoran]

No thanks on the item decay....flyff had that an i hated it...

But it didn't hardly make a difference on FlyFF... you'd get new gear before anything dropped below 80%.

I wouldn't mind item decay in HZ. It'd be a challenge and not particularly fun all the time, but who wants a game to be easy? It makes you value the items you're getting more.

And everyone's comments about being gone for a week and returning to see your plot run-down, or breaking your equipment while in battle... I don't forsee that ever happening. For one thing, a week seem far too fast for a decay on things, even items. Unless you use them non-stop... As for breaking equipment, are you expecting items to just randomly and unexpectedly shatter? You should be able to see the integrity of your items. If you loose your armor in battle, that is completely and 100% your fault and not a problem of item decay. Bring along a spare.

[Shian]

I wouldn't mind item decay in HZ. It'd be a challenge and not particularly fun all the time, but who wants a game to be easy? It makes you value the items you're getting more.

I value my armor just as it is thankyouverymuch. All 120 Elenath comps and three weeks that went into it.

And everyone's comments about being gone for a week and returning to see your plot run-down, or breaking your equipment while in battle... I don't forsee that ever happening. For one thing, a week seem far too fast for a decay on things, even items. Unless you use them non-stop... As for breaking equipment, are you expecting items to just randomly and unexpectedly shatter? You should be able to see the integrity of your items. If you loose your armor in battle, that is completely and 100% your fault and not a problem of item decay. Bring along a spare.

So... not only are we supposed to get 20 Blue Necroflywings/marble and mithril frags, Veteren Abomination whatever, now we have to get DOUBLE to make a spare set to haul around with us just in case the ones we made breaks?

SWG had decay in it (had-as in removed) and it was a royal PITA to carry two and three sets of everything. They decayed when you died as a death penalty, but Istaria already has a death penalty, now you want a play penalty as well?

Decay was not as bad in SWG as it would be here because it was looted armor-kill and grab, not "hunt for two weeks to get comps to make a set of armor". If they're going to put in decay, they need to put in looted armor to make that easier.

Oh, wait, we have that already. Dropped armor and weapons -namely blighted ones do decay.

[Wirevix]

Item decay as a money sink, I think, is too risky because not everyone in the game needs to have their money taken away. My dragon has a grand total of 638 silver and is saving every bit of it to try and get a lair when the auctions start. If he was forced into some mandatory money sink now, where would that leave him? Lairs often range up to and over 400s, and that's when no one's competing over them.

There are also items that he could never re-make if he lost them, such as his Simulated Tempered Scale. It's not an amazingly powerful scale, but it's the only one he'll ever get because you do not get a formula for it. An NPC makes it for you, and only as a level 50+ hatchling. Even once he stops using it, he'll be keeping it stored away for the memories of his last days as a hatchling.

Items are not all about being the best in battle, not for some players. For some, entire sets of armor or scales have memories attached because of when they got them, or who made them--especially ones that were made by people no longer in the game. These types of sets, even if you can make ones exactly the same, it will never have the same meaning as the original set that the player was keeping.

Damage during battle is realistic, yes, but so would be a lot of other things that only the most extreme hardcore players would want to see in the game. Crying "realism" is a dangerous route because you don't know how far it might end up going.