Upgrade or Nerf? you decide.

[Melanth]

An argument that had been cropping up amongst me and my friends a lot recently. I want to know what you all think.

Dragon upgrade recently consisted of two new things-

Both breath weapons being open to both factions and the recycle time was dropped to be more usable.

The addition of Primal Heal as a scribable, craftable spell for dragons only.

The Nerfs:

ALL breath abilities are now linked, and most have attatched hoard costs. Accuracy is still no better (est 30% for breath of lighting). Breath of Fire Burst has become significantly less usable due to linked cooldown and heavy hoard depletion.

Primal Heal is (arguably) largely ineffective unless heavily teched. It is possible for the health benefit to be whittled down in the time taken to cast.

Removal of craftable trip-tech PV scales, dragon equivalent to Boar Hide Mask and a source of tradition amongst players.


QUESTION: do the benefits outweigh the nerfs? you decide.

[Shian]

We can add a socket to our headscale as well, adding much needed extra points to stats or TNC/primal -crystals also added to the game.

Don't forget we have a new gift spell as well. Breath abilities were always linked in some form or another.

Drain strike is useful enough to be put ona toolbar now.

[Steelclaw]

The only real "nerfs" are that certain dragon abilities now have a hoard cost and that BoFB shares a recycle with the other breath weapons. (I'm not sure if the latter has always been the case.)

You can argue that the inability to make triple-teched Primal Vengeance is also a nerf. I can also argue that the existence of those items are the result of an error, and that they're not all that useful in epic battles.

The addition of a (supposedly) weak primal heal spell is not a nerf. It's something new. Whether it's effective or not is a different issue, however, nothing was taken away to get it, and using it doesn't take away from what you've had before. Nerfs take away, either with or without exchange for something to make up for the loss.

Now, the hoard cost on the more advanced breath weapons and drain strike is a nerf. It's adding a cost to (or taking away the 'free' from) an ability. I'm not complaining though. It's pretty easy to get enough to grow your hoard despite the cost of those abilities.


Now, before someone goes "STFU u just want a ez button!!|!1[1!!I!", let me ask you a question.

But first, some context: Suppose the devs have a goal of making more viable fighting techniques using the existing set of abilities and spells -- without making any existing ones overpowered. In other words, "Don't change anything" isn't an option.

Now, the question: What would you do to meet the above goal?
One more: Given the current state of dragon adventuring, what would you want to see changed?

[Shar]

If I had to give one or the other as an answer, I would say, "Upgrades."

I only base this on my own combat observations, but that may not be the same experience for all. My survivability has certainly increased more often than not with all of the new additions.

Happy hunting all and safe journeys,
Shargrailar

[Valornyx]

teched T5 primal heal - life saver more than once .. slightly biased since I have all the 3x teched scales I'll ever need .. but - it was an anomaly that we could 3x tech them in the first place - no other tech can be tripled .. try making a scale with 3x armor on it..

A new gift, a new heal spell, socketable head scales, a new tool claw - I see little to complain about here.

[Shur]

i find the new hoard-soakers to be a slap in the face to payers who don't have the spare time to sit and grind hoard to keep their levels up. Sure, it might take only an hour to grind a million hoard, if you get a beetle spawn to yourself and Verra smiles on your drops (i find two hours to be a more realistic number), but there are people who dont have but an hour or two to spare at any one sitting, and wasting it spamming attacks on ice beetles is not attractive at all.

other than that, everything is cool in this round.

[pevil2000]

I find them to be upgrades myself, I wasn't Ancient til after the breath linking, so I can't really comment on whether BoFB is less useable now but as far as the other breaths go... well it's exactly as it was before except I have 3 to choose from. Might be nice if Ice/Lightning hit a bit more often though *glares at Dragon Breath techs*

I also still don't have Primal Health yet (made one, it's sitting in the vault but my Primal has no points added to it so can't use it yet) so that of course has to be an upgrade for me; doesn't matter if it's not particularly useful, it will still be something I didn't have before and do now.

Oh and I never used a triple PV scale in my 2.5 years. Not once. Not denying they are nice, but I can easily live without it

But hey, after not having my dragon for so long, just being able to fly around is enough for me, anything else is a bonus! Guess I'm easily pleased

[Takora Drakan]

I would say upgrade.

Tool claws, jewely sockets, new spells, faction breath, skill crystals. Well breaths that bothers me a bit that the flame burst is linked with the faction breaths, but well, i can life with that, or you want that you dragon breaths ice in the front and farts flames? : p Ohh i want too leaser beams!


And also dont't forget the new dragon quest that go finally till 100, i hope the devs keep the work up on the quests to make the rest all of them also till 100. Btw, I love the new quests, the dev that worked on them really enjoyed the work on them it seems for me.

So overall the dragons didnt get overpowered, they get finally with steps for what they waited so long. Eg: socktets, skill crystals, faction independence on abilites and the missing dragon quests. The 2 new spells are a nice addition.

[Shian]

[QUOTE=Shur;195116]i find the new hoard-soakers to be a slap in the face to payers who don't have the spare time to sit and grind hoard to keep their levels up. Sure, it might take only an hour to grind a million hoard, if you get a beetle spawn to yourself and Verra smiles on your drops QUOTE]

Or you can sit on your butt and instantly get hoard courtesy of the new event.

Honestly, even with the new costs I haven't found hoard to be an issue. I don't have to grind it out as I get quite a bit by regular hunting for comps/techs/etc. Anything else I might be short, I get from guildees every so often.

If I didn't have a guild, I'd be trading trophies for them to the needy bipeds which I can also get by -not- grinding, but just doing whatever needs to get done for the day.

[LOVWYRM]

Flame and me are very happy with the upgrade
(though I think we`re gonna fight our hoard down to zero-
and will not get that !"§$ amor crystals anyway^^).

Like Steelclaw I think, there is a goal behind all that.

Thank you devs- no need for us to complain

[Silverblaze]

This might be long winded.

I am not flaming, if it comes off as rude, please tell me in a message and I will clarify, happily.

to address the original post.: Thus far...upgrade.

the linked timers on all breaths made me a little cranky, I won't lie, but it is a prevalenttheme in games, mocvies etc a dragon cannot sit about and unleash a wave of breath weapon after breath weapon. we have up to 4 now.

I dont use any but BOFB anymore, but thats just me I guess, rarely lightning.

My breaths seem to hit plenty.

The new crystals are novelty at best in my opinion but it is for the sake of completion I collect them.

The new heal practically makes me overpowered. The last time I died was to a wraith group w/stun blights. I also have the good sense to fly like a sissy (reasonably smart tactician) depending on your view.

The techs helped immensly in epic battles, I do hate to argue that with steelclaw, but they are quite effective at making most bosses weep for thei lives. in any case, steelclaw is likely correct that it was a bug that they functioned multiple times per item. Much like triple cleanse heals, or potency &increase on 1 spell. A mistake they remedied. We merely got so used to it, we used it as a bastion against our foes. I wont say my opinion to whether or not it "needed fixed". fact is, it was changed...arguably nerfed.

So qall in all, the only thigns that really bother me is...the linking of breaths. which I found a semi logical reason for. I don't like it, but I wont like every change.

Also a response to Steelclaw, these changes are so gradual, that they might make people quit if a "light at the end of the tunnel or some give to go along with the take" is not percieved as forthcoming on a reasonable time table.

no doubt many would like to see a change or a boost to dragons in the end, its a matter of how long they are willing to wait when thigns keep being "nerfed".

I was playing devils advocate there to an extent. I don't particulalry feel slighted or in the mood to quit. I also advocate sticking it out as long as anyone can. these changes are easy to adapt to. At least for me...or ask for advice. Ignem though a cranky old lunus, is likely happy to help.
I do understand the frustration. I think bof should be one timer, factions on one, burst on another. But its not my call to make.

As for the rallying cry against more hoard attacks. Hoard cost balances dragons. It keeps us spendign and collexcting to power our devastating manuevers. Bipeds dont have gold rage, they dont pay hoard. We have gold rage, we do.

In fact, please dont throw rocks, I'd pay more to use gold rage, if I had to. ( keep in mind, I am in the minority, no doubt)

Also, all you drakes with IBM's go turn them in for hoard! There are rivers of hoard pouring out of tazoon, go cash in.

[Creme]

Someone mentioned getting 23m hoard from turning in ~7k IBMs.

Yes, carpal tunnel lies probably another 1k IBMs more, but if you're willing to sit and click the links for hours, you don't have to burn hoard to get hoard from the festival.

Re: Trip teched scales. Although I too am saddened by this, I also saw the correction of triple teched purifies as well as limiting heals to potency OR heal increase where before both had been able to be applied. I cannot, in fairness, cry foul over this.

I agree with SB on the linking of breath timers. I also feel BoFB shouldn't be dumped in with the faction breath attacks, but I also don't think it's "game-breaking".

[Justa Mirage]

This is an upgrade in my opinion.

Sure, the BoFB has been linked now with all fire breath weapons, I wish it wasn't but it is. If you want some sort of reason: Dragons have to have a cooldown period between uses of breath weapons. It would be logical that you could not use a fire breath right after breathing another but must wait for the fire in your belly to recharge.

Getting new abilities and allowing crafted sockets only enhances, not diminishes the dragon playability. I personally use the new heal spell not in combat (as stated, you lose more health casting it in battle) but as an "After the battle" recovery

Triple PV scales had the days numbered when they could be fixed. The fix is here, and those that did not have them, will adapt. Why do you think there was a tradition associated with them? They were rare, not many could craft them in later years, and they were the only teched item you could stack the same ability 3 times.

Now Granted... hoard cost on abilities that used to not cost hoard was a bite in the rear and I can agree to that. Perhaps the devs needed to increase the hoard sink to encourage dragons to be wary of their hoard and replenish when they can.

[Dhalin]

Now Granted... hoard cost on abilities that used to not cost hoard was a bite in the rear and I can agree to that. Perhaps the devs needed to increase the hoard sink to encourage dragons to be wary of their hoard and replenish when they can.

Yeah, until the Devs nerf the Giant Ice Beetles, and once this Festival is over.... then what?

How will dragons get hoard then, when half of our abilities take hoard to use? I, for one, don't relish the idea of making a bunch of T4 scales, getting a couple K after a diskful of resources... *rolls eyes* That doesn't sound fun to me, having to stop my adventuring, and then start grinding up the hoard by making scales... meh.

Hopefully, the devs will increase drops on other mobs if they feel they simply must nerf the beetles... some mobs drop far too infrequently, that is WHY people hunt beetles in the first place. Nothing else drops good enough.

[Creme]

I've yet to see any mention of beetle hoard drops being diminished in any way.

However, the more you post about how good it is and complain about lack of good hoard from other mobs, the more likely you'll find it DOES get looked at very carefully, and that could be a plus or a minus, depending on how that evaluation goes.

As a note: beetles are NOT the only mob to be good hoard farming mobs, wolves have ALWAYS had good hoard drops and that's been the case for many years now.

[Dhalin]

Well, nerf or no nerf, I think the whole risk vs reward thing is all out of whack anyhow.

But I'll leave it go at that...

[Supernova]

Icy dire wolves... thats what players hunted before beetles. Just an idea.

[Frith-Rae]

The only problem I have, the only thing I dont consider a "good" change is the hoard cost to the breath attacks.

I dont know, I guess to me that's the dragon's "calling card" and the change that now its burning hoarde to use it kinda just..sits the wrong way with me. For me, those would be the last two things I made attached to a hoard cost...

But I'm sure eventually everything we do will cost hoard, I just feel that's where this is all going ....I don't like it cuz I don't like having to pay even MORE just to adventure...but I feel that's where its going.

But my breath weapon?! COME ON!

[Dhalin]

Did they even increase the damage output of the breath weapon?

Drain Strike's Hoard cost I could swallow, because they actually increased how good it works. Pre-change, the Drain Strike did exactly the same damage as a normal melee attack and healed me for 9-10HP. I mean, freaking whoop, I lose 3 times that much from a normal melee strike.

After-Change, it now heals for 70. That's more like it. Still a drop in the bucket, but hey, it is sure as heck better than "just a free melee attack".

Yes, I agree with Frith-rae though... I don't particularly like this direction we are going where everything costs hoard... for a dragon who is still only 50% hoard at Lv60, and since we need 25.3 _million_ at 100 to be fully charged, making more and more abilities cost hoard is getting to be more painful on dragons.

Bipeds may take longer to level, but heck, when you get a biped on Lv100 on every school, get your teched armor/weapons, they go on endlessly, not needing any maintenance, except for food to remove DPs and maybe some alchemist potions if you want potion buffs. Otherwise, they can fight infinitely. Dragons, on the other hand, if we keep making more and more abilities hoard-cost, will have to keep stopping to refuel. I'm sorry I don't foresee that as being fun. I foresee it being the thing that kills dragons' love of adventuring. I foresee that leading many players to do nothing but craft/gather with dragons and do their adventuring with biped alts...

[pevil2000]

Considering the amount of time I adventure (which for anyone who doesn't know me, is VERY little, I usually get caught up in lairshaping ) the fact that I 'only' have 4 mil hoard at 91 shows how easy it is to get hoard. When I DO go hunting, I don't go hoard farming, I kill for comps so I'm usually using my GR etc. And I still always come out with more hoard than I went into the fight with. Now I do admit to fighting beetles from 75-85 but that's all.

I'm not a fan of silly little grinds for the sake of it, but you really don't have to farm for hoard to gain it. Sure, I'm nowhere near max, but it'll happen eventually so I'm not too bothered. Way I see it is that it's better than having to grind for the comps for the 3000 different suits of armour that a 'ped needs

That doesn't mean I want EVERYTHING to cost hoard though. And while most of my breaths hit 99% of the time, it would be nice if Lightning would actually hit once in a while (I can deal with the effect not proc'ing but actually getting some damage might be nice...)