Gatherer - The root of all evil

[Mensar]

[Disclaimer]Let me start by saying I won't be held accountable for any previous posts on this subject since bringing this up again (as I'm sure it's been brought up) will likely result in squeaky-wheel syndrome at some point. [/Disclaimer]

Having said that..

My biped (Gweebus) started construction classes.. all five of them at level one. I also started two helpers that were level 1 gatherers.

Fast forward two weeks.

Gweebus is now 20-25 in every construction class. My gatherers.. are level 16 and barely that. ANd that's after almost 100 trips each to the gatherer trainer doing "craft 15" for the pathetic 500 exp per trip deal and you don't even get any tokens.

So here's are the various suggestions in no specific order.. if any ONE of these gets implemented I think gatherer will be much more viable:

1. Give gatherer some type of secondary skill like metalworking or stoneworking or something that will allow them to actually MAKE things.. they get the strong ability to deconstruct things (salvaging I think).. but what good is that if they're not capable of deconstructing anything?

2. Boost (and I mean like 3x or more) the exp for the gatherer turn-ins. at 500 exp per turn in.. with 14K for level 16 and obviously more for the rest till 20.. that's too many trips.. just for level 16, more for 17, more for 18, more for 19 and even more still to finally get to 20 where I can start turn-in quests for T2 vs. "create 15" ones.

3. Make "turn in" quests (the ones where they don't care where you got it from, you just turn it in) stretch the full breadth of gathering not just the first half of a tier.

4. Make "turn in" quests call for greater quantities for greater exp (same amount, but less trips) in conjunction with the lower amounts. I.E. asking for 500 raw essence would take the place of asking for 50 at a time and would net 10x the amount of the 50 (speeds things up).

5. Give some tokens? Just because gatherer doesn't actually MAKE anything doesn't mean we can't use the tokens for something else. Or, better yet, have them give IBMs so we can buy techs. Or just take out the gift of money and just add more exp (see number 1).

Any one or combination (OR ALL!) of these would, in my humble opinion, make Gatherer a much better and viable line of crafting.

The bottom line is.. any other class (besides maybe Miner, I have no experience with that one) you get exp for processing raw materials, you get exp for fashioning an item relating to the skills you use for that class, you get exp for deconstructing or, for construction classes, for placing the item. The exp you get involves at least 3 sources in any case.

Gatherer focuses on one source, processing raw materials. So that one should be equal (or at least balanced) when compared to the others teaching the same skills. If it can't be due to coding issues, we need to find some way to make it at least somewhat balanced with the exp you get with other classes.

I'm sure this is an age-old argument or suggestion. But given how well the devs listen on here, I can't imagine why a rational suggestion for a broken class wouldn't be at least considered

I've heard the suggestion to "bootstrap" with another class but that doesn't solve the exp issues with the class by itself.

[Vlisson]

gatherer and miner class is fine

maybe they would have a better place in the world if it would give the primary skill system

but if you dont like to be gatherer than dont join this school! you dont need it really

[rizo/nawkia]

2 weeks and only level 16 -.-.. quit doing the quests the regular xp is so much better.. and they are the hardest classes because they are the best classes (in a gathering base materials sense) they get max at gathering all the resources and making them

[Mensar]

2 weeks and only level 16 -.-.. quit doing the quests the regular xp is so much better.. and they are the hardest classes because they are the best classes (in a gathering base materials sense) they get max at gathering all the resources and making them

I only did the quests for about 4 hours when they meant something.. but as I got higher into the level, it wasn't worth it anymore to make 30, 40, 50 trips to get a level.

I definitely agree, the exp is terrible compared to the other classes.

As far as processing being worth more.. for a full disk and full inventory of unprocessed material I get 386 exp. So.. not really worth more.. at all.

And yes, it's the best class for gathering, but let's put that into perspective. You have a class that gives 8 logging/lumbering (for ease of math) which is 20% less than you get per level of gathering.
So let's make gathering get 20% less exp than that crafting class per unit of resource. I'd be happy as heck with that! Would be much much much faster at 20% less than the other classes. Right now, per load, I would say it's roughly 90% or more less than a load of the same material for any other class.

I would say it's a serious balance issue to have a class that levels at roughly 9% (optimistic estimate) of what the others do.

Heck, they could just lower the exp requirements per level for gathering to 50% of what the other classes require and that will help plenty coupled with the turn in quests spanning the whole tier instead of just the lower end.

The thing people aren't seeing here (especially folks that have done gatherer) is that they haven't done the class independently.. they've bootstrapped it from other, easier to get, classes. That's a bandaid. I'm suggesting actual fixes.

[Shian]

II would say it's a serious balance issue to have a class that levels at roughly 9% (optimistic estimate) of what the others do.

That's because it's an extremely powerful class that affects all others. Of course it's going to be more difficult or you'd be able to get every other class to 100 within a week no matter what it is because gatherer affects all of them. You're not looking at the whole picture when trying to form an argument about balance.

There's also the sillyness of gatherer getting xp for doing something else. Uh-huh. I'm going to be 100 gatherer by standing at a forge making tools.

[Mensar]

That's because it's an extremely powerful class that affects all others. Of course it's going to be more difficult or you'd be able to get every other class to 100 within a week no matter what it is because gatherer affects all of them. You're not looking at the whole picture when trying to form an argument about balance.

There's also the sillyness of gatherer getting xp for doing something else. Uh-huh. I'm going to be 100 gatherer by standing at a forge making tools.

And yet I can become at proficient fitter by making tools. And a proficient essence structurer by making spells.

It's all interrelated.

I think you're right though.. balance is an issue. I can't level blacksmith or outfitter or scholar to 100 in a few weeks and then use it to level everything else that uses those gathering skills.

Well.. actually I can.

It's the same thing only those classes are easy as pie to level. Granted, gatherer gets 2 whole points more in some aspects than they do. That's why I'm saying less exp, but definitely more than it gets now.

[Guaran]

Those 2 schools are harder to get started in. Especially if they are the first and only schools on low adv level toons.

To make things easier:
level up an adv school to at least double the crafter schools level. Best to get it to 100. Wear t5 teched padded ironsilk (any school can wear this, including adv schools even mage or sorc, etc.). Recommend healer or cleric so you can self buff, enhance, and surge with T5 buffs, 5 gift slots.

Now you will have a base skill level boosted up into max efficiencies alot sooner, if not immediately even as a lvl 1 miner or gatherer. At least for tier 1 materials.

Secondary suggestion: Level blacksmith (for miner) or outfitter (for gatherer) to get higher base processing skills in place. Once at least a few hundred skill in say tanning, essence shaping, etc is there, you can be getting max exp and maybe even work tier 2 materials and leveling will go faster.


Also remember that these are 2 of the most overall useful schools (these skills benefit almost every other craft school in some way), and therefore yes they are harder to level than other schools. Don't bother with the quests much past say lvl 7. Switch to gathering and then processing resources. Again, having t5 teched out padded ironsilk on as lvl 100 healer will go a long ways to improving efficiency. The first craft school any toon does will be the hardest and slowest to level. Top that off with starting out in the hardest schools to level to begin with, and low level adv toons, and that is simply the most difficult combination there is.

Take a break and work on all their adv levels, then go back.

[Mensar]

2 weeks and only level 16 -.-.. quit doing the quests the regular xp is so much better.. and they are the hardest classes

This is good, I missed this post early on.

It validates
1. The quest turn in exp isn't up to par.
2. They are very very difficult to level

Any suggestion to fixing that?

[Mensar]

gatherer and miner class is fine

maybe they would have a better place in the world if it would give the primary skill system

but if you dont like to be gatherer than dont join this school! you dont need it really

Ahh.. the proverbial "It's fine". It's good that you feel that way, but that doesn't fix them.

Yes, I need a class that gives wood and cloth gathering and refining at the same time. For whatever I need it for, it should function as it's supposed to.

[Summerbreeze]

1. Give gatherer some type of secondary skill like metalworking or stoneworking or something that will allow them to actually MAKE things.. they get the strong ability to deconstruct things (salvaging I think).. but what good is that if they're not capable of deconstructing anything?

As much as I hate lvling gatherer (mine is 87) Miner gets no extra way to lvl.. gatherer is not alone.

5. Give some tokens? Just because gatherer doesn't actually MAKE anything doesn't mean we can't use the tokens for something else. Or, better yet, have them give IBMs so we can buy techs. Or just take out the gift of money and just add more exp (see number 1).

Gatherer does not need tokens as they can buy all their forms for coin. Does not need IBM's because they can't make anything that requires techs. Again I point to miner as well.

Gatherer & Miner were designed to make other crafting classes easier by making you more efficient working with the RAW materials. They were not designed to work with processed materials & to change that now, would be IMHO, a slap in the face to those who worked it hard the way it was intended.

[LaughingOtter]

Hey, Mensar...

Tannins.

[Mensar]

Hey, Mensar...

Tannins.

What's a Tannins?

[LaughingOtter]

What's a Tannins?

XP by the bucketfull.

[Mensar]

Something for most everyone that has responded thus far:

Ahh.. tanin is something they can make as gatherers that is more than one component. Definitely have to work on that.

My ignorance for biped is pretty epic here.. Thanks for curing some ignorance on the Tannins.

As far as gathering goes though, it's not working well if, as I said, you're getting just a pittance of the overall exp that other classes get.

I've seen the usual suggestion to bootstrap with the skills from another class. Which is the perfect bandaid.. raise blacksmith to 100 fairly quickly and then use that to raise gatherer or some other class. I don't think that really addresses the issue as far as gathering as an independent class.

Yes, it's a powerful class. But if you think about it... it gives nothing you can't get by raising other much easier to raise classes. And I mean MUCH easier to raise classes. Say.. 10 to 50x faster to raise in almost every case.

I'm not saying make it the same.. because then people would abuse how easy it is to raise gatherer and use it to raise other crafting schools (nobody ever does that with other schools... heh)

I'm just saying it needs some attention on some level because it's not, at all, a viable school by itself. At this point, for me to make ANY headway in raising other schools, I'm going to have to go "forget" the 16 levels of gatherer to bring my salvaging back down so I can go level blacksmith and outfitter for the wood and cloth skills I need. Overall, even with all that work in forgetting, re-raising and everything I'll still be years ahead of where I would be if I stuck it out with gathering.. and that's a sure sign that something is broken.. and we're talking two other schools from zero at least 20 if not 40 in the time (guaranteed) it would take to continue and make 20 in gatherer with the way it is now.

So that kind of cancels out the whole "it's powerful" argument considering you get the same skills (albeit 20% less in some cases) per level in much much much easier to level classes.

Steele: Making spells in order to be a proficient essence structurer.. scholar is what I was talking about and essence shaping is the skill they get.. I can level scholar to whatever I want very very quickly and in a few days become a great essence structurer with the whole "bootstrap" method even though I have never touched essence structuring before. It was just an example.

As far as the "long run" argument. 200 extra skill when you're at 800/900 already? you could have already leveled every other class (17 of them not counting miner which I understand, but haven't experienced personally, is just as broken) to 100 by the time it would take you to level gatherer to a much lower level without some type of bootstrapping. This is a bandaid.

I'm seeing lot of suggestions on workarounds (thanks for those) from very intelligent people. But I'm not really seeing any support for the original posting suggestions. If those aren't what people want to hear (and the class is definitely broken no matter how "powerful" it is deemed to be.. it can be bootstrapped by much easier to level classes, yes. But the neccessity to have that instead of it being an option kills it for a stand-alone class) then maybe someone has other suggestions to bring it up a bit in ease of leveling from "impossible" to "hard"?

Say the "turn in" option where raw materials are turned in for the whole tier instead of just for the first half of it. Or additional exp for turn in quests. Something that won't throw it into disarray for the player that wants to just level it instead of "bootstrapping" it with other easier to level classes.

Again, and I can't stress this point enough, when you can level the other classes to 100 in the time it takes to get to .. maybe 30 in gatherer? It takes away the "powerful" part.. because you can now use those 100 classes to increase gatherer much much faster. So you take away the sovereignty of the class when you dilute it with the cross-ability exp raising (bootstrapping) of the other classes.

The long and short of it.. this needs attention on some level. So I'd love to see some suggestions on what COULD change to make it a better class but wouldn't disrupt the balance now that everyone cured my ignorance on tannins, hehe.

[Valornyx]

. At this point, for me to make ANY headway in raising other schools, I'm going to have to go "forget" the 16 levels of gatherer to bring my salvaging back down so I can go level blacksmith and outfitter for the wood and cloth skills I need.

If your salvaging skill is too high for a class - then equip a bronze salvage awl (or better a training awl - if there is such a beast) - this will cap your salvage and let you get decon xp .. this is a time honored approach for anyone with high levels of Tinkerer which kills the other classes salvage abilities.

Besides - I do not think it is possible to forget a craft school - only adventure ones (may be wrong on that though).

Again, and I can't stress this point enough, when you can level the other classes to 100 in the time it takes to get to .. maybe 30 in gatherer? It takes away the "powerful" part.. because you can now use those 100 classes to increase gatherer much much faster. So you take away the sovereignty of the class when you dilute it with the cross-ability exp raising (bootstrapping) of the other classes.

I think though (and this is my take on it) that it is not supposed to be a standalone / sovereign class ..

The whole point as far as I can see of miner and gatherer is to give you the extra gathering skills that come with high level MIN or GATH if you choose to use those schools to supplement your other ones. Neither of those classes is actually required to build any particular thing (although as pointed out by others, high level crafting may be impeded by just using the base classes (BLK OUT etc..) to gather with. ie "Bootstrapping" is actually intended rather than a workaround to a broken class

Please note - I am not answering your original or subsequent posts directly .. I'm not suggesting that the classes could not perhaps use a looking at.

Rather, suggesting that to me it seems that they are designed to supplement other classes and enhance those rather than to exist as a sovereign class of their own. Individually they are pointless, they are only beneficial if you have another class. But with another class, the extra resource gathering abilities become meaningful for high level crafting.

Maybe this is something to consider - maybe not

As an aside, back when I took Miner to 100 I did it in part for the Standish Deluxe Cargo Disk .. and was privately gutted when they made that available for everyone .. as I felt that the disk was one compensation for all the hard work that had gone into it. Perhaps a new disk for GTH MIN classes only that makes them more attractive again might be one part of the solution (if one is needed).

[Mensar]

If your salvaging skill is too high for a class - then equip a bronze salvage awl (or better a training awl - if there is such a beast) - this will cap your salvage and let you get decon xp .. this is a time honored approach for anyone with high levels of Tinkerer which kills the other classes salvage abilities.

Good idea, thanks.

Besides - I do not think it is possible to forget a craft school - only adventure ones (may be wrong on that though).

Didn't realize that, thanks.

I think though (and this is my take on it) that it is not supposed to be a standalone / sovereign class ..

I guess I would recommend they change it to not be available until a certain point, or just boost the gathering skills for the appropriate classes that actually are related to the making of the items that require them instead of having a separate class.

"Bootstrapping" is actually intended rather than a workaround to a broken class

I don't agree. If a class is given as a class.. it's a class. It should be self-dependent and a complete class. If it's not a complete class, it should be broken up into it's basic skills and placed into other skillsets rather than allowing people to get stuck in this mire that is gathering.

I'm not suggesting that the classes could not perhaps use a looking at.

But that's really the point of this thread, Val

[/QUOTE]

[Guaran]

The class is not broken. Changes to the way it gets skill, such as granting exp from the actual gathering, would simply be exploited by afk gatherer's mining and deleting. (which could keep resources from others) Removes the time needed to drag the disk of materials. In short, something like that while it seems to make sense simply would be bad. Perhaps the random, ocassional "bonus" exp would be ok (as rare as EoB drops).

The only change I can see addressing your concerns would be a more exp from the trainer quests.

Ultimately, you need to better familiarize yourself with the biped crafting schools http://horizons.gamersinfo.net/schools/schools.php

And then follow our advice. These schools cannot be given exp any other ways than processing or quests because it could be exploited, would be suddenly "too easy", and in doing so impact other crafters IMHO. Another thing these changes would require is overhauling of every single craft school. If miner and gatherer get exp from gathering, then all other shools shouldn't get these skills to begin with really. Also, what would be the reasoning of getting processing skills if the school is a gathering school? They are "Processing" schools first and foremost, even though the names do not infer that.

These are "Prestige" schools (even though as far as I know you can join as lvl 1 with no pre-requisites) and are meant to supplant other schools. On the same character. The way you are doing it with multiple individual toons will ultimately give you a nice advantage. But yeah it might take 3 times as long to level 3 characters vs leveling all these schools on a single character (what you should be doing). No one told you to do it that way. You are going about it completely backwards. You need to learn about it (biped schools) before demanding changes. I do not feel that you have as yet enough experience in these schools to understand them. The ways the skills between schools work together and one school can help another.

I suppose one change would be to require 200 mining before being able to join. Then you wouldn't have been able to get yourself in this "predicament".

Also, miner only gets 8 salvaging skill per level, therefore there is no need to "forget" 16 levels of miner to be able to level blacksmith. BS still gets exp from making tools, weapons etc, and would even still get some exp from making bars. Perhaps not quite as much but this is a small piece of the overall exp pie anyway. BS doesn't get huge exp from making the bars and less than half (likely even less) from the deconning. btw the 160 salvaging will actually be a benefit because while a small reduction in decon exp may be noticed, you will be getting more resources back with which to do your main exp gaining step: make tools.

Leave the miner schools as they are (don't go deleting the toons) and change to blacksmith or outfitter. take those and cleric to 100. make t5 teched crafting gear. Then if you want even more mining skill, switch to miner.

************************************************** ****************

Rule(s) of thumb on exp and leveling biped schools:
It's safe to take to 100, schools that get 8skill/level. Level 91 for schools getting 9 skill/level, and level 80 for schools getting 10 skill/level. This is referring to creation or processing skills only, not gathering skills. The pattern here is stop leveling once you hit 800 base skill cause as you pass that the exp (gained by that skill) will lower in all classes that get exp from that skill. Stop Miner, Gatherer, and Tinker at level 80 until all other desired schools are done. Leave Tinker as the absolute last class. All three of these schools are the slowest to level, think of it as multiclassing for crafters (leveling gets slower the more schools you add, same thing adventurers face due to rating).

The idea is to allow you to level other schools slightly faster, and then later come back and finish off the schools to 100. If you only have 1 or 2 schools you want leveled to begin with then take them to 100 without concern.

Ultimately at some point you do have to take schools beyond that, and even then when say processing metal as 100 black smith/80 miner vs 100 miner, the exp is only reduced by 36.6% (104 exp vs 164 exp per), and thats only the processing exp. (Again, its the smallest piece of the exp pie typically).

Anything else you need to know ask in game.

[Mensar]

The class is not broken. Changes to the way it gets skill, such as granting exp from the actual gathering, would simply be exploited by afk gatherer's mining and deleting.

LIke so many other forms of crafting in this game.. the ends have very little to do with the means.. when you can make tools to increase scholar which in turn increases your abilities in enchanter.. very little that you do in a class has to do with how well you do it or how well you'll do at the end product.

I'm not suggesting folks get exp from gathering. I'm suggesting they get more exp from the methods already available.

The only change I can see addressing your concerns would be a more exp from the trainer quests.

Thanks, I agree with that. If that's the only way to get exp beyond processing basic resources, it needs to at least be somewhat competitive with other classes.. not saying 100% of the same exp, but let's look at .. what, 50%? I think 50% would be a good starting place.

Ultimately, you need to better familiarize yourself with the biped crafting schools http://horizons.gamersinfo.net/schools/schools.php

And then follow our advice. These schools cannot be given exp any other ways than processing or quests because it could be exploited, would be suddenly "too easy", and in doing so impact other crafters IMHO. Another thing these changes would require is overhauling of every single craft school. If miner and gatherer get exp from gathering, then all other shools shouldn't get these skills to begin with really. Also, what would be the reasoning of getting processing skills if the school is a gathering school? They are "Processing" schools first and foremost, even though the names do not infer that.

I didn't suggest a change to the way exp is received beyond what I typed in my original suggestion. I never suggested exp for gathering as a skill (or foraging, lumbering, mining, etc). If I gave that impression, I apologize. That wasn't my intent. The ways gatherer receives exp is fine. It just needs to .. well.. my original post has the info, hehe.

These are "Prestige" schools (even though as far as I know you can join as lvl 1 with no pre-requisites) and are meant to supplant other schools. On the same character. The way you are doing it with multiple individual toons will ultimately give you a nice advantage. But yeah it might take 3 times as long to level 3 characters vs leveling all these schools on a single character (what you should be doing). No one told you to do it that way. You are going about it completely backwards. You need to learn about it (biped schools) before demanding changes. I do not feel that you have as yet enough experience in these schools to understand them. The ways the skills between schools work together and one school can help another.

Well.. I'm pretty familiar with the classes. I'm saying thank you to people that give me information because it's much kinder than saying, "I already know that" and they, like yourself, are taking the time to provide what they feel is good information, and I'm always happy to receive it when it's meant with good intentions.

Having said that, I'm pretty familiar with my methodology, I don't take steps toward a goal without planning it out. The point of having 3 crafters at once is to do things 3x as fast and it works very well. Gatherer, having no other class to rely on is going slow, admittedly, but it's not because I'm not doing what I should be doing. It's simply because the class isn't geared correctly for getting exp when it's not being supplemented with other skills as everyone is pointing out which means it isn't working correctly as a class.

Which is why I submitted suggestions to change it.

Leave the miner schools as they are (don't go deleting the toons) and change to blacksmith or outfitter. take those and cleric to 100. make t5 teched crafting gear. Then if you want even more mining skill, switch to miner.

THis is, as I've been saying, the bandaid for the problem. Not a solution. But I understand what you're saying and I appreciate the information, truly! But after seeing what I've gone through on this, I'd really like to see the problem get fixed rather than allowing someone else to get caught up like I have.

But I'd like to know more about how you would change the exp to be more in-line with the other classes based on my original suggestion. Or maybe how you feel the exp on the quests could be tweaked to allow a more fluid and enjoyable experience.

[Mensar]

I tried out the tanins that everyone was talking about.

And.. short of the fact that you can fit more in a disk (even though it's really not any faster to gather) I would say I'm not impressed by the exp.

After two solid hours of doing nothing but leveling gatherer on Cedar leather tanin.. and that's with one person gathering water so the other two could just gather sap even so it was going twice as fast as it would for anyone else.

I netted a total of 8500 exp. Two hours solid.. and that's at double speed with no breaks. I need 14,000 for a level.. so you can't even get a level.. to put it in perspective:

One person gathering Cedar leather tanin components.. let's assume they gather water and tanin efficiently and do so for two hours.. they will make a total of 4250 exp roughly.

That means for lvl 16 it will take them 4 hours of nothing but making cedar leather tanin.. for one single level. And that's considering you save all kinds of time from fitting 1150 units in your disk/inventory vs. 700 for unrefined wood. Of course you lose that time when you consider you have to gather water.

In just about any other class 4 hours of intense leveling (from level one) will easily get you to 20 if not 30 or so even if it's the first class you have ever put your character into - so no bootstrapping there)

So I don't know what the real solution here is guys. My original suggestions stand. I think really one of three things should happen to gatherer:

1. Increase the exp for the gatherer quests since this is really the only viable source of exp for the class.

2. Make "turn in" quests for the raw materials available always not just at the front end of a new tier (the first 10 levels of the tier).

3. Increase the exp for processing materials while assigned to "gatherer" class.

For those that think the class isn't broken. I hate to say it, but this thread isn't for you. It's for suggestions on how to fix it. Let's be creative.. and if you don't want to see something changed, maybe make a suggestion on how it can change in another way to achieve the same end.

This class is broken. There's no way to level it beyond bootstrapping it. Can you imagine how many runs it will take to get from 19 to 20? Probably several hundred.. we're talking weeks of work for ONE level. Anyone out there can say that's not in-line with the difficulty of the other classes. And without the mushroom exploit, those of us trying to level the class the right way through the first tier might be experiencing some imbalances that most of the "older timers" may not have been privvy to.

[Aaelefein]

Well gotta throw in my two coppers...

Sorry Mensar, but I have to agree with everyone else on this.

Believe it or not, miner was I think around the 8th or 9th school I finally started leveling (after all other metal-based schools were lvl 65) then from there I kept them in balance to 100. I didn't bother with gatherer (about 14th lvl 100 craft school) until I already had a 100th level Weaver, Enchanter, and Carpenter; even before that I used the skills from my Blacksmith to take the Spellcrafter to 100 in a couple weeks which rapidly allowed the leveling of gatherer eventually making Yew Boards...which I was able to store for my fletcher and outfitter to level and for my Carpenter when I was working T5 Silos.

I really have to agree with Guaran, Miner and Gatherer really are prestige schools. Except and unless you have an infrastructure already in place where you can store the processed materials your Miner/Gatherer are making...I have never and would never suggest to any player to start with either of those schools until that have one that's at least to Tier 3. Until then, there is really no need to even bother with those two schools...at least in my opinion.

My biggest suggestion, since you are using three PCs...use your Dragon to level your bipeds to 100 adventurer...should be able to do that in a week for each biped alt..preferably a class that get at minimum 9 Armor/Level so they will be able to wear the best armor and jewelry for whatever craft school that are in...I know THAT made a huge difference when leveling my craft schools...as much as +200 skill, or the equivalent to about 20 levels.

Assuming you have structures and seem interested in speed...use your trio of dragons to do the hard work...harvest and store resources for your bipeds to use...they can harvest much faster and move a lot more per trip...you'll be amazed at how fast your bipeds level...I know, I did the harvesting and hauling for my Dragon Treyvan.

Like everyone else though, this is just MY opinion...there is nothing broken that needs fixed for miner/gatherer.