New Shirt vs. language violation

[Drakarr]

My coment there was directed at the ESRB rating and how the shirt compares to that because inthe context of the last several posts before the details of the games rating was beig talked about, the EULA and in game things are a horse of a different color. The EULA does say words like "offensive".

I don't think it is splitting hairs because the shirt isn't in game, the EULA coves in game conduct. It could be under the ESRB because it is connected to the game site or community site. However, it falls into the guidelines of the rating that the game has.

[Creme]

Again, it's simple enough.

These are the reactions to the "officially approved" t-shirt which appears on the istaria gear site:

Indifferent
Pleased/Cool
Offended
Concerned
Surprised

That either matters to the owner of the game and the staff, or it doesn't.

[Drakarr]

yup pretty much

[Sigi]

Like you already said Creme, most people who you talked to and were offended, were so by the toon, they didn't even see the forum or the t shirt. Making your point like that (putting a toon up in Bris) is - in my opinion - a bit like striking the match yourself and then pointing at the fire saying it is dangerous.

also most people with standards do not post here anymore due to being modded if they are not fanbois of Istaria, and actually offer difference in opinion, i say I was offended.... all I got was who cares, so why would other post here to be made fun of and told to shut up as well.

I criticised your action in Bris, I criticised the way you tried to make your point (with the most and almost everybody and such).
Now what you're implying is that the people who post here have no standards?

Try to keep things with yourself. Say you think or you feel and don't speak for others (or be specific and name names). Nobody told you to shut up. And if people don't think you are right they are as much allowed to say so as you are allowed to say what you want to say.
Not only beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Creme]

Like you already said Creme, most people who you talked to and were offended, were so by the toon, they didn't even see the forum or the t shirt. Making your point like that (putting a toon up in Bris) is - in my opinion - a bit like striking the match yourself and then pointing at the fire saying it is dangerous.

Yes, and those that I spoke with that were offended by the toon in Bristugo, upon hearing that the toon was there because of the t-shirt mentioned on the forums and on the link to the official gear site, were then offended/disturbed/(and yes, one of the terms was "disgusted") at an officially approved t-shirt with those words.

There were mixed reactions in marketplace when the topic came up (discussing the toon in Bristugo and then the explanation of why he was there with that name); however, all the players that passed through Bristugo and were offended by the name, were likewise offended at the t-shirt.

[Sigi]

But they would never have been if the toon wasn't there to begin with. Because they wouldn't have known.

[velveeta]

how do we feel about this:


how about:


or:


i have this shirt too, would you stop me and talk to me about it if i wore it to your kid's little league game?:


how's this one?:


or this?:


how about these:




all these came from just one design website (www.offworlddesigns.com), open to all - associated with various popular rpgs (d&d, cthulu, wow, etc.) and advertised on forums and game mags..........

see my point? offensive things are everywhere - what is offensive to you and your many, are not offensive to me and my many. who gets to decide which group is worth not being offended?

as with most things istaria, it is really very simple. if you don't like something, don't deal with it. this is not a blowoff, or a putdown, or a disregarding of your feelings - it is just basically reality and how the world works. you and your many do not get to tell me and my many what we should find offensive and how we should spend our support.
i am not offended by anything on istaria's cafepress store, i am not offended by anything or any name in game, and i respect vi's right to approve or disapprove anything having to do with it's products.

i have been censored by vi myself and have recieved an infraction or two - and i accept this as what can happen as part of vi's judgement. i see this as only right and proper and do not dispute any of it (altho i may not always agree with that judgement). if this makes me a yesman fanboi, i accept that and am proud of it.

[Velea]

Last post on this thread for me...

The point that is being missed here is that it clearly states in the Rules of Conduct, Prohibited conduct, item 8: Use any sexually explicit, harmful, vulgar, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, racially or ethnically offensive language while in the Game or System.

Likewise it clearly states in the Naming Policy that "phrases" are not allowed.

When the character was created and brought in game, that was a violation of those rules.

[Creme]

how do we feel about this:

I feel that at least one of those images contains language that is prohibited on the forums.

As you mentioned, these are items that can be found advertised in various magazines, but are NOT officially sponsored merchandise by the MMO companies themselves.

On another note. I don't feel the need to prove anything or make statements to the kids or parents at little league games and I don't particularly feel that the merchandise is appealing to me and my fashion sense (or lack thereof).

Oh, and I don't see anyone saying that everyone *should* be offended by the t-shirt, merely that it IS offensive to some.

[Deth]

Vel I love Lunch Money. Just so you know the bottom 3 pic are from the game it's self. No it is not a MMO but a card game but it is still in game art.

[Kumu Honua]

Nuff said.

Grow up offended people.

[velveeta]

i apologise for my carrying the topic too far. i become over zealous and tend to rant on far past time for me to shut my cakehole.

as my point, best as i can make, has been made, i will cease my participation beyond monitoring the thread.

thanx for the tolerance!

[Steelclaw]

Wow, this thread sort of exploded from all angles.

Going back to the original complaint, there appears to be a discrepancy between VI's actions and policy, and some debate over whether or not their activities outside of the game need to conform to in-game policy.

Whether or not "lesbian dryads" are appropriate for Istaria is a totally different (but maybe equally relevant) discussion. Nonetheless, this is probably not the right thread for that.

It's been established that ESRB ratings apply to promotional items and content as well as in-game content, so maybe the in-game policy should apply to shirts sold in the Cafepress store, as they are promotional items. While the ESRB is by no means a governing entity, they do serve to establish certain expectations that can be considered "standard".

That being said, I now go back to VI's request to change the name of "Frolicking Lesbian". First, if it is true that said character was sitting in Bristugo repeatedly casting a spell so that everyone passing through would see it, that was a poor move and taints the sample data to the point that I'd say that the results that experiment are of no value.

More to the issue though, Velea cites that the character was in violation of a rule that prohibits sexually explicit language. Is "Frolicking Lesbian" sexually explicit? I think not. Does the phrase (or description on the shirt, for that matter) describe a sexual act with no attempt to hide its true meaning? No. Does it describe the "private parts"? No. If you replaced "roli" in "Frolicking" with a certain, single letter, then yes, the name would be sexually explicit. But that's not what happened.

I think that the clause prohibiting sexually explicit language should have never been brought up as the name doesn't appear to be so. That's not to say that "Frolicking Lesbian" should not have gotten a name change request though -- that name is still a phrase. Had the language clause been left out, there would be no discrepancy between action and policy.

Don't confuse "(sexually) suggestive" with "sexually explicit". Those are two different things, one of which is not prohibited by VI's rules of conduct and Istaria's ESRB T rating.

[Maliki]

Well I got this in an email, from anouther HZ player, and past time for the discussion but to clarify the earlier posts.

ESRB can post sanctions agains a game company, inluding inposing fines on company. google ESRB + fines. or this link http://www.esrb.org/ratings/enforcement.jsp some fines can be hefty. ESRB does work with US Congress.

True, as to not start the argument over again, the wording on what is acceptable is borderling to the shirt and would have to be reviewed by the ESRB, such as on this page http://www.esrb.org/ratings/principles_guidlines.jsp notice the marketing and advertising is defined, these product have thier own class. There are tighter rules on merchandise.... even though rated M, they cannot show M rated material on box or advertisements. "All advertisements should be created with a sense of responsibility toward the public.", "No advertisement should contain any content that is likely to cause serious or widespread offense to the average consumer.". "Sensitivity to Peoples Beliefs or Handicaps".
Yes these are loose definitions and only the ESRB can decide what is deemed ok... we could argue all day and would not make a difference... up to them.
And advertisement is defined as game related materials at the top of the page. Since the link is on a VI site stating Istaria gear (showing involement and or approval of VI), that makes the gear Istaria material.

No reason to debate this topic, just to inform the earlier posters, I learned something from that email as well.

[Shian]

I don't think the shirt is offensive. I find it humorous even though I would not buy or wear such a thing, but I do appreciate it.

I would also feel put off if these shirts were to disappear from cafepress' inventory. The joys of having out of game loot, something Istarians have been wanting for years and now people complain about it? Some days I wonder how VI can be so endlessly endlessly patient with us.

[Maliki]

I like the Idea of Istaria selling gear, its a good thing. It just needs to be done with some restraint if it is to be endorced by VI.

[Mensar]

All I know is, I haven't busted my butt for the last 16 years trying to defend a right to speech and have some kids tell me I can't order what I want or say what I want.

If I want to order a shirt that has a butt naked fairy and the words "butt naked fairies do it better in the air" on it.. and wear it in public.. presuming, of course, that was my style. Then, by god, that's my right. Censoring what someone can say on a shirt that, beyond the picture, has nothing whatsoever to do with a game who's EULA only relates to the GAME itself and even then just when you're online. That's why it's a LICENSE AGREEMENT.

Stealing intellectual property is one thing, but they've given the right to this company to sell that property in the form of a picture on apparel.

And, no I wouldn't wear that type of a shirt... at least not anywhere I thought kids might see it.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Although it may not be believed widespread, we do appreciate the fact that players state their opinions on the boards and also appreciate the attempt to create a rant section that does not personally attack players or disrupt other rules of posting while still creating an environment for discussion.

In this thread we have discussed
-concerns and counter-arguments to those concerns in regards to player-customizable gear.
-the standings, goals, and authority of the ESRB rating.
- "Officially Sponsored" versus "Player Customizable" versus "Officially Approved" (although I don't believe this was clearly argued and the fact that player customizable gear is approved and offered on what is considered the only place to purchase 'official' gear does not necessarily mean each player customizable gear is 'official')
- other various non-thread related tangents.

We have decided it time to close this thread.
Please do not get offended at the closing of the thread as many players have had ample time to state (and repeat) their positions on the subject and many of those same posters have stated no interest in proceeding further with the discussion.