New Shirt vs. language violation

[Maliki]

How is a game makes rules to avoid offending the general population of game but then breaks the rules themselves?

The new shirt with the text “Istaria – Where lesbian dryads frolic naked in the woods all day long� has been found objectionable, because of the sexual nature, by many of the people who play the game. When I confronted VI in the boards they said the language on the shirt was approved by Rick Simmons and VI staff. Therefore the context and words themselves were deemed appropriate, correct. I wanted to see if this theory was correct. So I named a character based on that shirt. I want to apologize first off to all that was offended by it, which there was A LOT. The character I made on Chaos was named Frolicking Lesbian, straight from the words used on the shirt. I made no bad comment to anyone just sat in brist. Guess what VI sent me a message saying I had to rename the toon due to violation of naming policy, with the nice message: This type of offence is considered a violation of rules of conduct and, if repeated, can lead to further disciplinary action. So what is it VI acceptable language or not?

If it is appropriate to advertise the game why is it not good to use in game? If there are people offended by the sexual nature of the shirt, is it all right? What is good for the goose is good for the gander is what I was told growing up, but I guess not in the eyes of VI.

Sorry just had to get that off my chest and figured rants was the place to do it. Even though Im sure this will get modded soon.

[Steelclaw]

That's an interesting experiment. I'm sure there's a difference somewhere, somehow, that we're both missing, and that will become apparent soon. I suspect it has something to do with context, expectations, and how difficult it is for one to avoid being "exposed". It's also possible that your character's name may have been viewed as a statement of malicious intent towards a particular lifestyle.

I think your little experiment and observation touches upon something bigger than an inconsistency between action and policy -- it seems like more and more people (all over, not just Istarians) don't cope well with being offended and become offended easily. Or, in more general terms, it seems like more and more people are unable to deal with that which they do not like.

Ahem. Before I get carried away, I'll pose this question:
What if VI said your character's name was permissible after it has been determined to be benign in nature and intent?

[Sigi]

I'm sorry, but having a toon in game named frolicking lesbian is a totally different thing from having a T shirt with a text about Lesbian dryads frolic. For someone being offended by a text on a T-shirt because little kids would see the T-shirt it is a rather stupid action to put a frolicking lesbian in game, If you don't see the difference between a Tshirt and a game toon I guess it is rather pointless to write this reply but still.

You should have made more dryads and go frolic somewhere in the Istarian woods and see if there was a reaction but standing there in Bris, automatically casting revitalise spell - otherewise, who would have noticed you ...?! So childish.

I personally have nothing against the shirt, I even have nothing against the toon, but grow up, you don't have to buy the T shirt and I doubt it will be sold by the millions to you can't get out of the door without being confronted with it.

Many people have found the narrowmindnes of people being offended by the Tshirt objectionable.

[Takora Drakan]

I agree 100% to Sigi, a T-shirt and a char ingame with that name are different things. Today you can't turn on the TV with seeing boobs jumping in your face, so why are so concerned about the "naked" dryards? Because of a funny wording on a T-shirt? You are making out of an fly an elephant honestly. Throw away you blinders and don't be offened by a wording on a T-shirt. Thare are worser things out in the world than that.

Stop making drama about this, honestly.

[Maliki]

I understand there are alot that dont mind the shirt but there is a large majority of people who find it objectionable. I have talked with several other guild leaders and others on Chaos, almost all disagree with the message it displays. Alot of the people actually came to me in game. So how many people need to find it objectionable before it would fall under RoC #9? I speak for alot of people who do not post on the boards anymore, most of us have found it pretty pointless, due to bias and deleted threads. There is no way to get a direct answer from VI, they seem to avoid discussing anything that might cause conflict... or pray they ignore it and it will go away. I know several people besides myself who have posted the same thing Im saying now just to be modded. And no I did not start this so called issue, people actually came to me in game. That is why I did not post till pg4 of that thread after others were modded and banned from boards due to comments about this issue.


This is just part of a larger long going issue with VI and player base. I have seen it in game were 2 people complain and VI reacts immediately, other times multiple people complain and it takes weeks of tickets for them to react. My point is certain people, especially players that work for VI (quite a few Im sure you do not know about), get alot of special perks on the severs anymore. If your not one of them you just have to deal with it.

[Sigi]

A large majority of people who find it objectionable?

I'm sorry but I really don't buy those words. Only if there was a proper poll, and everybody concerned would answer you could state such things.

Even then. So what, the fact that a lot of people think something doesn't automatically make it right. The majority of people thought the earth to be the centre of the universe!



Like Takora said, you're blowing this thing out of proportion (and made a lot of free publicity for a Tshirt I'm sure a lot of people (most of them ) didn't even noticed before you went lesbian in Bris. And now dragging presumed favouritism into the "discussion" too?

By the way, all of my friends and a lot of other people agree with me .

[Vaz]

Favouritism-and-corrupt-moderation conspiracy theory stuff much like this seems to crop up on every MMO forum once in a while; same basic premise, just with different names and peeves...

Usually it's because the conspiracy theorist and their mysterious supporters got pwn'd (if you'll pardon the phrase) by more reasonable people.

[Velea]

The Rules of Conduct clearly state as part of the prohibited conduct for things in game are anything of a sexually explicit nature. Also, the Naming Policy that states that names which are phrases are prohibited.

You violated both of these when you created the character, simple as that. You agree to the EULA every time you log in to the game, and the EULA states that you agree to abide by the Rules of Conduct and policies set forth by Virtrium.

There are no such rules or policies for the use of the CafePress website. Any rules or policies set for there are based on what CafePress sets up. Yes the submissions for "player created work" (such as the shirt in question is) must be approved by the Virtrium staff.. but they remain completely seperate from the rules for the game.

Rules vary from product to product offered by game companies. The rules and policies set by Disney for Toontown Online are different from their rules and policies for their Pirates of the Carribean MMO, which are different from what you agree to when you use their online website. All three are produced by the same overall company, but for each product rules are different. Same concept here.

There's your direct answer.

[Maliki]

Thank you Velea, at least you reponded, I appriciate that and thank you for clarification.

[Tzael]

If I were to add to this discussion I would simply incite a reaction, a bit like the reaction that has already been drawn out of myself (though withheld from expression). So instead, I'll just grab my jacket, it's the one that says "Istaria - where homosexual dryads play naked in the woods all day long".

Let's have it both ways please.

[Soraii]

I dont want to step on anyones toes or make anyone mad, but It kinda feels like the Cafepress connection is "authorised and approved by VI" which might be where the issue is stemming from, It was set up as someone wanted official Istaria items. And While the shirt in question is on it's own seperate from VI there is nothing wrong with it. Yeah there is a bit of innuendo going but what doesn't have innuendo? But it's part of the "official sponsored Istarial gear" as a custom player image. It just doesnt feel up to the high quality standard of officially sponsord custom merchandise. No offense to the people who made it for joke gear, you just might want to up the bar a bit on stuff that is offered under officially sponsored programs.

The old keeping up appearences you know O.o

Soraii

I also want to comment that the spamming while standing in a highly public probably was the bigger part of the reports then the name... this post in rants was a much better way to voice your concern.... I didnt realise you were protesting something, I thought you were just spamming to be a nuisance like I have seen others do

[Mensar]

Ok.. as a joke I was just going to post "boobs are good" in my normal fashion of adding levity because when I get halfway serious, someone gets offended by how blunt I am.. well here's some bluntness for you.

There's an issue here that needs to be addressed. It's one thing to have good values, but as I've learned in the time I've been on this little earth.. no matter how good your values are, no matter how closely you stick to your interpretation of the "good book" or whatever your moral compass is...

You can't impose your beliefs on anyone else.

That's the bottom line, that's what it boils down to.

People will do what they think is right, no matter what. So if you want to have a shirt that says lesbo mutant flying gnomes in the buff or whatever, that's your deal. Don't expect anyone else to buy it. And, on the other side of the coin, don't get upset that someone WOULD have that made. It's all a matter of your personal choices.

The EULA, if that's your guiding star, doesn't affect what you can have made at another store online? They have nothign to do with each other.

And.. here's the kicker..

If you don't want your kids looking at questionable material, or offensive pictures. Then .. PRAY TELL.. what the HECK are they doing ON THE INTERNET?



Peace.

[Maliki]

The EULA, if that's your guiding star, doesn't affect what you can have made at another store online? They have nothign to do with each other.

EULA = rules set down by VI for all to obide by in game

If VI thinks these rules are appropriate for the game why would they not have the same standards on products THEY OFFICALLY ENDORCE for public use/advertisement?

either way... they make the rules not I. Im done

[Takora Drakan]

Already said, Cafepres has its own set of rules.

[Maliki]

I know, I was just responding to the EULA statement on why it mattered... VI came out and said the shirt was official endorced by VI... dont care about cafe express... VI said THEY endorced it.
EULA and Rules of Conduct were written by VI... in game they do not endorce that language was my point.

This is going in a big circle, Im not posting further... so you guys flame on this post all you want.

[Maliki]

Sorry broke my silence but things were posted other places. ESRB states that not only the game but materials offered by the game. The website http://community.istaria.com/ is considered part of the game. The shirt is offered on that site, yes there is a link to an outside source. But the initial offer is on the istaria site "Istaria gear" link. If the shirt was just posted on Cafe and not linked from Istaria site it would be ok, but the initial offer as "istaria gear" is on community istaria site therfore putting it under ESRB rulings. And yes there is a ESRB rating, unlike some people think.

Thats it, no more

[awdz]

If I were to add to this discussion I would simply incite a reaction, a bit like the reaction that has already been drawn out of myself (though withheld from expression). So instead, I'll just grab my jacket, it's the one that says "Istaria - where homosexual dryads play naked in the woods all day long".

Let's have it both ways please.

LOL Tzael! I've never been particularly comfortable with the picture of the dryad pose apparently thrusting the breast forward (though my husband does seem to like if I do that), but I'm not going to freak out about it. I wonder if men would be comfortable with a picture that emphasizes the satyr hairy codpieces and "Istaria - where homosexual satyrs play naked in the woods all day long"?

Bah, 'nuff said by me.

[Creme]

Soraii and Maliki both state very clearly in their posts what the "issue" is.

It may not necessarily be something that personally offends them (although it could), the nature of the content being officially sponsored is disturbing.

There were MANY concerned players, who, upon finding out about the t-shirt where even more outraged.

This is a game spanning ages ranging from 8 to 70+. Everyone has their own feelings about exposure to sexual orientation being public. It should be a private matter and the owners should not be seen to be endorsing one type of orientation over another.

Another company could not produce the t-shirt without the chance of being sued, as the artwork belongs to Vitrium.

As for Xoshara's comment

Favouritism-and-corrupt-moderation conspiracy theory stuff much like this seems to crop up on every MMO forum once in a while; same basic premise, just with different names and peeves...

Usually it's because the conspiracy theorist and their mysterious supporters got pwn'd (if you'll pardon the phrase) by more reasonable people.

More reasonable people? Perhaps that could be changed to "more unaware people". Just because it's something that you, yourself haven't observed, doesn't mean it may or may not exist.

[Drakarr]

EULA = rules set down by VI for all to obide by in game

I think you said it right there...in game.

Yes the game does have a rating, T for Teen. Have you ever seen what is on a movie that is PG 13? Sorry but I don't thnk that even on a movie, saying frolicing lesbians would get it a PG 13 rating. A PG13 movie is allowed breif nudity from the waist up or from behind i.e. backside.

But being that this shirt dosen't appear in game. The point is moot.

[Steelclaw]

I wrote up a nice post about what I'm about to point out, decided it wasn't worth mentioning, but now... maybe it is.

If you want to get a point across, don't use "many" or "a lot" as a statement of fact unless it is qualified by some objective evidence that supports your conclusion of "many" or "a lot".

...has been found objectionable, because of the sexual nature, by many of the people who play the game.

There were MANY concerned players, who, upon finding out about the t-shirt where even more outraged.

That's great, how much is "many"? How did you arrive at that conclusion? Was your survey biased? Intentionally?

Consider this example:

Many would agree that Militia Ration Bars are awful. Of the 180 Istarians surveyed, 114 found the taste revolting and vowed to never eat another one. The remainder were still chewing on their first bar from whenever it was that they first started eating it.

Numbers help your argument. If you omit them, there's a chance your argument will not be considered.