The rant to end all rants

[Teto Frum]

I can't believe i say in my post im grateful and then Takora, you post back that, well when it come to grateful, I'm grateful you don't know how grateful someone can be. Bad enough im lacking the understanding of how complex these matters are as has been suggested, that i couldn't possibly grasp how long and hard some are working on the problems. Now i can't even be grateful right, or perhaps grateful enough im not sure where my gratefulness falls short.

I don't want to ruin my time in Istaria because im in some squabble on the forums. You guys don't think much of me, i get it, actually i'm fine with it. Funny though how whenever theres a thread running about anything being wrong with Istaria, the responses from you guys are never about whats been said, its just a bunch of insults about the opposite side.

Think of me what you want, but i love Istaria as much as you do, it got me through some really tough personel times without going nuts. Enough while you were suffering like i couldnt imagine without your toons to pay EI monthly for doing nothing so you had a game to be resurrected in by Vi when they bought it.

[Zexoin]

I can't believe i say in my post im grateful and then Takora, you post back that, well when it come to grateful, I'm grateful you don't know how grateful someone can be. Bad enough im lacking the understanding of how complex these matters are as has been suggested, that i couldn't possibly grasp how long and hard some are working on the problems. Now i can't even be grateful right, or perhaps grateful enough im not sure where my gratefulness falls short.

I don't want to ruin my time in Istaria because im in some squabble on the forums. You guys don't think much of me, i get it, actually i'm fine with it. Funny though how whenever theres a thread running about anything being wrong with Istaria, the responses from you guys are never about whats been said, its just a bunch of insults about the opposite side.

Think of me what you want, but i love Istaria as much as you do, it got me through some really tough personel times without going nuts. Enough while you were suffering like i couldnt imagine without your toons to pay EI monthly for doing nothing so you had a game to be resurrected in by Vi when they bought it.

I'm totally with you Teto.
A few weeks ago I thought I'd never stop playing that game. I finally removed my pink glasses. People and their expectations change over time.

[LOVWYRM]

It`s obviers that we (eg: Tako and me vs eg: Teto and Mensar) do not understand eachothers points of view. Because we feel different, expect different things, have different personal backgrounds.

That is normal and not that bad.
But we should stop it here, because further explanations will not lead to consent or better understanding atm


edit: and Zex- you wore that rose-colored glasses when you were lookin`at the game?
- or when you were lookin`at the players?

[Teto Frum]

LOVWYRM i hope you took no offense to my statements, none were directed at you. I don't have a problem with anyone having a differing opinion than mine. I agree differences are great. My posts were directed at those that question my dedication to the game or my actual intelligence for believing different than them, i don't think people that disagree with me idiots and would prefer not to be spoken like im one. I consider no one more polite than you LOVWYRM on this forum.

[Vaz]

All that really matters about a customer's opinions is whether they express those opinions by paying or by not paying. They don't pay = they say they want the game to fail.

[Frith-Rae]

Well before you go crashing on people's rants - remember, this is the rant forum. I am thankful it is here!

So if anywhere - this is where you should be ALLOWED to rant without taking flack. SO...rant on! And Teto I certainly hope noone considers anything in this thread a "squabble" cuz well it just doesn't seem that way to me - so I hope noone tries to give you any flack for it in game.

I agree actually with most of the points everyone has made here. I disagree and give flack to noone who chooses to move on because they can't "take it" anymore - I've struggled with that same decision myself - as much as I love and want to support the game - am I of clear conscious with WHAT I'm supporting. Sometimes I go back and forth.

Right now I'm here - when I upgrade to Vista..who knows.

But let's not down people ranting in the rant forums - it needs to be here. And people should feel free to let it out - because just like stereotypes - there's always a grain of truth behind the reasons that ultimately needs to be listened to.

[Creme]

All that really matters about a customer's opinions is whether they express those opinions by paying or by not paying. They don't pay = they say they want the game to fail.

Sorry, I disagree with this.

Please stop assigning motives to players or placing judgment on the level of support/care they have for this game.

It is simple enough. Istaria has many players that love this game.

Istaria has players that have an expectation of what their subscriptions should provide (and that can depend, in part, to how many subscriptions they hold).

Istaria has players that feel that players should be more concerned with how hard the limited staff works, then the value of the services provided and therefore, continue to support the game, regardless of expectations, by giving them their hard earned money.

IMO, it is NOT unreasonable to have expectations for the cost of a regular subscription in this game. Those expectations are ALL individual choices.

I get pretty sick of hearing "well they work so hard" whenever someone is upset at certain aspects of the game.

YES, I agree, the staff does work very very hard and is very very dedicated. I don't think that anyone on these forums DOES NOT appreciate and understand the work and dedication that these few have put into keeping Istaria growing.

On the other hand, I DO recognize that the subscription costs of this game match those of a premium game. As such, there are players that will EXPECT to get similar quality. That is not wrong; it is not unreasonable.

More players, IMO are offended by those that rush to defend the staff and insult the paying playerbase by questioning their loyalty and dedication. This is a subscription based enterprise. It is a business. There are few other businesses where the customers are insulted or denegrated (by other customers) for having expectations of a certain level of service.

Amon, as usual, a pleasure to read your very well thought-out response and taking the time to explain that which is being done, that which can be done and that which is being considered.

Um, whoever posted that they planned a T1 Hall on level 0, I think that Mensar specifically stated that any hall ABOVE t2 could not be planned on level 0. I have not tried this myself, I just know I was unable to plan a T6 hall on level 0.

[LOVWYRM]

(no Teto- I did not feel offended )

[Vaz]

Sorry, I disagree with this.

Please stop assigning motives to players or placing judgment on the level of support/care they have for this game.

What I mean is that motives don't matter. Subscriptions, as far as the game's survival is concerned, are a binary issue - either they're there or they're not. People take action, their actions have effects. The words they dress their actions in don't have effects unless those words sway other players to change their subscription status.

[Duergos]

Fear not Istarians,

George W Bush at any moment shall release 10 million dollars of TARP funding so that we shall not be required to endure the socioeconomic turmoil that a failed MMORPG may generate.

[Creme]

What I mean is that motives don't matter. Subscriptions, as far as the game's survival is concerned, are a binary issue - either they're there or they're not. People take action, their actions have effects. The words they dress their actions in don't have effects unless those words sway other players to change their subscription status.

True, and I very much doubt that with the current player base, someone posting their reason for leaving will encourage others to do the same.

The issues surrounding bugged plots/lairs is a subjective thing. Some are inconvenienced to the point where it is a game-breaking issue and others aren't.

[Teto Frum]

Than you Creme and Frith for your support. No one posts why there leaving to try and get others to join them. No one leaves hoping game collapses. Anyone who posts their reasons for leaving clearly cares about the future and the game in my eyes. They are letting it be known why theyve departed, hopefully theres a chart, VI uses to track departures and why, so that certain things are known and perhaps may get some attention sooner.

I by no means ever mean to offend VI though i know i have a few times. Leaving something you used to enjoy is not easy, as it sits right now there are several things that need addressed before i would ever consider returning full time from my current visit twice a year plan. I don't think im being selfish or insulting to anyone by joining any thread that i think might further those goals, its just me hoping that by adding another voice to a thread perhaps things might get moved up the priority latter.

VI has always been very honest about their size and that they can't work on everything at once, therefore there clearly is a priority list, I'm grateful people take the time to post why their leaving, because i think somethings have been done that are less important then somethings left undone. Im hopeful threads like these may place more importance on issues VI may not think are as important.

Before everyone jumps on me, im not implying that VI is doing anything wrong. But they are not players, even if they were at one time, they are not now and might not see certain issues in the same light as a current player.

[Frith-Rae]

Well Teto going on your last few paragraphs there - and I think the big message/point overall whenever we get into these discussions (We as in the community and the devs)

Is it basicaly comes down to a "agree to disagree - we see your points but you can't deny the truth" type of answer. Which makes noone happy - but unfortunately is the "way it is"

Kinda like when two friends are having an honest and truthful discussion about something and realize that they are just in two different places, or wanting two different things, or have two totally opposite viewpoints. Neither one may WANT or LIKE that the other person is that way - but at the same time there's nothing to do to change it - it just "is what it is."

At that point each person on their own has to decide wether its something they can accept and live with and keep in their life - or something they can accept but no longer wish to have in their life.

It can be "answer you don't want to hear", as much as it is 100% true - and you can wish it wasn't that way. But in the end - each person can only decide for themselves if its the truth that, in this case, they wish to pay for.

I hope that made sense...Its a sad situation in that neither party is usually happy with the end answer, or the truth - and realizes it "sucks" - but also realizes that it is a truth that for the time being - we can't do anything about.

And people have a hard time with those types of conversations and truths...and people get very very upset at hearing answers, or dealing with a truth, that they just wish wasn't so.

[Mensar]

Sorry, Teto, it's just been eating at me for nearly a year now.


You're right about that, but a lot of people don't work in those professions. I would have not understood this either if it weren't for this course, as I work a 'simple' restraunt job.

Also, yes the game is five years old, but how many of those years were spent with incompetant devs that caused it to nearly die? If all of those years were spent with actual development going on, I don't think this would be an acceptable state for this game. But VI is currently having to clean up the mess, and build ontop of it.

As for planning halls on level 0, I've been able to plan a few there no problem. I currently have a tier 1 hall commited to be built on level 0/1. I didn't know there was actually a problem with that, but if there was one, I guess it would be because of the way the terrain of some lairs is shaped?

Again, sorry. I really do not wish to argue, so I apologize for my tone. I'm just saying things the way I see it, while trying to respect the opinions of others.

As I stated, higher than T2 (I.E. T3, T4, T5, T6) halls may not be planned nor built on the first floor of a lair.

[Mensar]

No, not a cop out. A design decision. You can't do the crafting quests because you don't get crafting abilities as a lairshaper. And you don't get any XP for making the materials and products that the crafting quests ask you to.

You get all the same abilities and skills in both classes and they even advance at the same rate except what, transmutation and some other skill.

Not necessarily. Often this is the result of the terrain intruding upon the first level of your lair. You have 9 more, use them.

No, actually you can't plan any hall greater than Tier 2. I brought this up a few times already. Let me guess? The fairies that live in the grass are shunning the building of such large and cold structures within, and so in order to not offend nature, we can't build them so close to the top of a lair? Just a joke, but that's the type of WAI - Lore response I get to a lot of my posts with suggestions to fix things, haha.

Yes, I agree that the planning screen needs improvement. I haven't seen any threads or posts on suggested improvements to it. Maybe you should post one and get a discussion started about it?

Any idea how many times I've mentioned that already?

Not broken. Broken means it is a bug. When they were created, they were set at 12 bulk. Its an easy change, its just not one that we've really considered before.

Well, not to sound too harsh here, but you might have considered that when deciding what to do with everyone complaining about their vaults being unusable. Heck we still don't even know why or when the limit for player-built connies was reduced and that's been brought up a bunch of times asking for an official word. And, I don't agree, the word 'broken' refers to something not working as one would expect based on a logical anticipation of either reaction or function. IMHO.

Z axis isn't broken. Broken would mean it was there but not working. There is no Z axis in the game to begin with.

I stand corrected, this isn't broken then........... it just causes issues that make things function in a way that's not consistent with the way one would expect them to either function or react in a logical manner.

:P

[Mensar]

You know, I don't want to sound hostile...I do agree that many of these things need to be looked at or worked on, but you need to have realistic expectations, especially given the workforce VI currently has.

Anyone who has ever tried programing on a team, for a single client, will realize how complicated something as simple as 'I want a purple color scheme' can become. (True story: Spent 2 hours with our client last week tweaking colors on her project) I can look at what our small team of junior programmers can accomplish within a month, and try to relate it with some stretch to what I imagine VI's current size is, added in the sheer amount of content they need to add and fix, and suddenly I understand 'crap, that's a lot of work.'

They are doing what they can.... A work day is only 8 hours, and 5 days a week, and if they're like any of the programmers I know, they probably put some amount of overtime into it, because they can just taste the one line of code that'll fix the bug that has haunted their dreams for months.

We're all frustrated with the bugs...

I hope you find a game that suits you better. It sounds like you just need an overall break from Istaria if these things are eating at you so badly.

I hear you.. but I heartily disagree. I've rewritten my share of spaghetti code and tracked down missing passed local and global parameters from 3,000 lines of code in less than an hour which includes recompiling and debugging. It's really not difficult at all. It's actually very fun. Finding that missing operand or whatever is a neophyte mistake and it's in your own coding and a debugger tells you what the issue is almost to the exact line and type code. Try editing someone else's code that works, but you want to change how it works, much much easier once you map out the variables and how they are passed to the other objects, etc.

I even offered to Lady V to help the dev team and never got a response. I've been programming since I was 10 on a TRS-80 model 2 with a whopping 64K of memory. Maybe that'll shed some light on how frustrating it is to get shut down all the time when I know how easy these things are.

[Mensar]

I disagree 100% Hrough the last thing you need when talking about Istaria is realistic expectations. I think most people would think realistically that game over 5 years old would have behind current day standards of graphics and client, but that game would be basically bug free, this christmas will be my fourth in Istaria and games still has bugs from when i started and is far from bug free. Realistically looking at Istaria I feel being that the cost per month is right in line with more modern flashier games, that it would be maintained and new content added to game at a similar pace, alo that tech support would on par with other equally priced games.

This might shock a few people on here too, but you didnt need to dumb down the work day hours for us, theres a couple proffesions that work overtime occasionally too. To the I understand it why can't you guys understand tone off your post, ive always thought that its the whole MMO making world that doesnt understand it...everyone is in shock when people start bailing on games that are all screwed up, well i might not understand programing but i understand that VI is working hard and doing their best, because thats not good enough for me affter 4 years ingame with the monthly price it carries doesnt mean i don't understand , it means im not ok with it.

Speaking of long hours, try being in the military, heh.

24/7 sound like long hours?

I would get calls in the middle of the night from our commander asking me to call over to the command post and help them solve a coding issue with some equipment they were trying to recalibrate for the weather team (weather is an issue if you're in the Air Force landing planes) or calls about the SiPrnet going down which isn't even my forte.. I'm not a networker but because we wrote the client for their software, they call us.

And yes, asking $15 PER subscription for something as buggy and annoying as this game can be is pure insanity considering the competition.. especially with the load-lag in spawn zones.. wow, just love walking into ED and spending a second changing crystals just to find out I'm already dead and didn't know it because there was a spawn lag of about 10 seconds.... in which time they beat me to death while I was just standing there not even seeing them.

[Mensar]

LOL and oh yea i don't want to argue either, and i apologize as well, but whats been eating me is the fact that whenever youve got a dissenting view your immediately jumped on as not understanding the big picture, or just plain anti Istaria

Check out some of my other posts about folks being anti change. It's something unique about this game/forum that I haven't found in any other game. Players actually support the stagnation rather than renounce it. It's a interesting occurence

[Vaz]

Check out some of my other posts about folks being anti change. It's something unique about this game/forum that I haven't found in any other game. Players actually support the stagnation rather than renounce it. It's a interesting occurence

Actually it's not unique. There is at least one other game where players are often accused of being "anti change".

[Vaz]

And yes, asking $15 PER subscription for something as buggy and annoying as this game can be is pure insanity considering the competition..

You think they can fix more if they charge less?