Interdependance. Your doing it wrong.

[Zanukk Sytheclaw]

Yeah Its one of those threads again and i know what your thinking where this may be going. But read on you may be wrong.

Interdependancy in between the races is a good thing, only if its done right. lore wise it can fit well. In many quests due to lore dragons depend on bipeds for very important parts of their life. important quests like the rop and arop and well many others. Since i do not have a biped i can assume such quests do exsist that bipeds seek aid of the dragons for very important quests also.

Now the problem is. Just how so? Im all for doing quests where I need to seek out the biped playerbase to get things done. Im cool with that.

Now exclusive quests for dragons needing bipeds example is acceptable as long as there are exclusive quests for bipeds needing dragons for one reason or the other.

Can it be done in the game current state... well somewhat but that should be adressed. It feels there really is no need for dragons at all in the eyes of a biped. yet a dragon needs to be handheld well by bipeds to do quests.

As it is now its Discrimination and it shows in the form of quests done by both bipeds and dragons.

early example lets say the attuning to trandalar's various locations by going to the valley of repose. here you have kill quests or crafting quests to choose from attuning. Kill quests its all equal. But what about crafting? This is where it bombs. A dragon crafter can do all but one attunement because cotton is required. cotton can be only collected by bipeds.
This why the discrimination. why can bipeds do all these attunement quests without the aide of a dragon but if a dragon crafter decided to attune he/ she has to seek help to finish one of em.

Point is. If you want interdependance MAKE IT MUTUAL or dont do it at all. why couldnt there have been a crafting quest in valley of repose that required crystals. then BAM both biped and dragon crafter would depend on eachother to finish all the quests. Seriously its not hard.

Ok ok thats an old quest. been in the game for a while. no need to change. Now lets go to a newer quest. One recently plopped out to keep all those high lvl chars busy for a while..... Hmm one in delgarath. the chain for the unsung hero quest. You might know the one. The one many dragons are stuck on because your given a list of things the militia needs.

Now this is what gripes me, is to have a list that is 90% biped 10% dragon. infact i can safely say 99% biped 1% dragon.

in or around 10 biped armor pieces needed. 2 biped weps needed. 1 dragon spell that can be made by spellcrafters any ways. 1 dragon scale , 20 chicken supreme foods and 20 scones.

This is Interdependance discrimination at its finest. were talking about the militia here. a guarpost is obiously not gonna have hundreds of soldiers n all guarding, it will lag out the place like heck so your given only a few npcs but you know well due to lag reasons they cant put a whole army in 1 place. However you assume that there are alot of npcs needed to guard the darn place. but really your getting stuff for the visible npcs that are there. there are no more than 1 dragon guarding that place. 7 to 10 npcs guarding a location surrounded by undead. even under them. you know where im getting. while ingame they might not be there you assume your in a guard post there should be enough for a defence but its not that im trying to get to.

Its the darn list. If you want interdependance make it equal. That list should have had half things dragons need a biped for and half bipeds need a dragon for.

Not no 1 item... just 1 darn item a biped needs a dragon for and the rest he/ she can make on his/ her own. Quests like these piss people off.

Quests that require the community should go both ways not just one. and thats sad. Especially now where the community is mostly dragons and its very hard to find bipeds that can do the items on the list.

oh well rant off. lets go to some suggestions that dont break the game at all.

Add things dragons can only do which bipeds need in an occasion for quests. things that do not interefere with bipeds crafting n all.

Dragons dont need a new school to do things that bipeds may need to finish a quest . They can do somthing with lets say the meat they can collect off critters. Now Not food that take off dps and all. we dont wanna mess with the confectioners. but maybe foods that boost regen slightly that all can use. or give temp stats or sorts. reduce aggro I dont know somthing simplistic that does not affect in any sorts a biped school. it doesnt even have to be complex. just a few things added that dragons can use inguenity to create. give them the ability to make things that can be used in quests later on.

Yeah dragons have crystals. but do bipeds even need them? maybe to attune to draak but what for. the new sand bridge to draak made doing the attunement quest totally pointless.


All i want is to see in quests like the ones i mentioned is to see more things dragons can make that bipeds need a dragon for. That quest in question could have had claws in the list and take out one of the biped items or even crystals needed and take out the darn scones. then yeah it would have been a very good way to portray interdependence.


as it is. your doing it wrong.

[Dragonboy]

Yeah dragons have crystals. but do bipeds even need them? maybe to attune to draak but what for. the new sand bridge to draak made doing the attunement quest totally pointless.

Lore wise that quest is the best quest currently ingame, surpassing the RoP, ARoP or any Delgarath quest by far (in my opinion)
However the quest has been useless from the start.
Not even counting the existence of the bridge (which I have never seen as of yet) I doubt many hatchlings are willing to get attuned prior to starting the RoP. Why?
1. (Prior to adding the bridge) It sends you to Draak to get some crystals from the top of a mountain forcing you to evade Pale Hatchlings and Ghostly Dragons every step of the way.
2. Minimal requirement for the Quest is lvl 30 adventure AND 300 skill Crystalshaping (lvl 30-35 lairshaping school!!). Forcing a hatchling to become lvl 30/30/30’ish before starting RoP.

I believe crème mentioning some time ago that bipeds need crystals for a quest, but haven’t seen it first hand.

As for the huge list of biped stuff for that militia quest… It is true it has few Dragon items, but considering that it is officially a Dwarven outpost it can probably explained that way.

I can understand the annoyance, but also remember the discussion some time ago about a biped being annoyed for not being allowed on Drakul?
As far as I am concerned the only thing dragons are better off then bipeds are the size difference between lairs and plots. Plots are small and expensive in comparison to lairs.

[Shian]

I do remember someone asking for some crystals once, but I don't remember the quest. It was obviously one of the last adventure schools to be completed because I haven't seen anyone else ask for them since.

Star Anise was an attempt at interdependence, but it's easy to get around that requirement by just not making that food and making the other food for that tier. It's not required.

I can understand the annoyance, but also remember the discussion some time ago about a biped being annoyed for not being allowed on Drakul?

According to the patchnotes, they are allowed now. We as players just haven't found the quest to get them there.

Lore wise that quest is the best quest currently ingame, surpassing the RoP, ARoP or any Delgarath quest by far (in my opinion)

Really? Wow! That's so cool!

I wouldn't know. None of my dragons ever complete it. To ask that a "baby" dragon achieves level 30 in a secondary crafting school is ridiculous. Even during the Drulkar's Wrath quest, lairshaping is optional.

When my dragons gain their wings and achieve that level in lairshaping where they can actually do the quest, there is no path to take them there. Nothing that says 'Hey, this would be easier if I were attuned here" I haven't gotten bored enough to go out of my way to take the quest.

Why attune? Even under the grounds of being able to help out others, you often have to run them from Lerena anyways, negating any need to attune. This goes for bipeds and dragons.

[Zanukk Sytheclaw]

I do remember someone asking for some crystals once, but I don't remember the quest. It was obviously one of the last adventure schools to be completed because I haven't seen anyone else ask for them since.

Star Anise was an attempt at interdependence, but it's easy to get around that requirement by just not making that food and making the other food for that tier. It's not required.



According to the patchnotes, they are allowed now. We as players just haven't found the quest to get them there.



Really? Wow! That's so cool!

I wouldn't know. None of my dragons ever complete it. To ask that a "baby" dragon achieves level 30 in a secondary crafting school is ridiculous. Even during the Drulkar's Wrath quest, lairshaping is optional.

When my dragons gain their wings and achieve that level in lairshaping where they can actually do the quest, there is no path to take them there. Nothing that says 'Hey, this would be easier if I were attuned here" I haven't gotten bored enough to go out of my way to take the quest.

Why attune? Even under the grounds of being able to help out others, you often have to run them from Lerena anyways, negating any need to attune. This goes for bipeds and dragons.

lorewise the draak attuning quest is written well. so well that my character relkun is based on that story alone.

i just wish quests were granted equal for bipeds and dragons alike.

to dragonboy: yes its a dwarven outpost but there are many races there not just dwarves. all races are into this war together. its not a all man to themselves war. thus propping more that these quests should have an equal term of whats needed of bipeds and dragons.

[LOVWYRM]

Though I`m a supporter of interdependance among the races,
and I hate any kind of segregation
I whole-heartedly sign what Zanukk says. In all points!

And yes- the "unsung hero" questline, as much as I loved to play it, had a bitter taste when it came to the militia list.
To be honest- it makes me angry and sad to ask folks for help, I even do not know well, or friends I`d asked often enough before.

Its np for me to ask for help- np to depend on bipeds to go on with this or any other quest-
its the fact, that I have absolutely nothing to give in return (oh pls- dont tell me about 1 spell and 1 scale!).
Those who can craft this things do not need a claw to fight with them- or even anything a dragon can craft.
And consider: I have lots of friends and know a lot of players and I`m not too shy to ask or even insist^^. For me its only my feeling bad about that.

Others- who do not have such a rich "social network" will never finnish such quests-and will leave the game in frustration.
That is what I saw.
Or they ask other dragons what to do- and we ask the same bipeds again and again for the favour- and feel worse every time.

The interdependance which is practice atm- is without balance- and that is why I repeat what Zanukk says:
Its not done right.

[Knossos]

Shian said

quote
Why attune? Even under the grounds of being able to help out others, you often have to run them from Lerena anyways, negating any need to attune. This goes for bipeds and dragons.
End quote

Being attuned to Draak is much appreciated by Bipeds having need for T6 Fish and bonus.

Knossos

[Frith-Rae]

/signed for the OP -

Draak quest being the only one in the entire game. And apparenlty, now one scale for one other quest - the rest the dragon needing the biped to do anything else.

:/

Devs you can spout "interdepencency" all you want - but the fact is you don't back it up and you never have. Its always been one sided and I just don't see that ever changing. Unfortunately, I also don't see you admitting this and reversing the dragons needing it in the first place.

Nevermind the fact that I need a biped to grow - that in itself is insulting. What would it be like if in order to get past level 30 in anything all bipeds had to get stuff from dragons? Now THAT is equality (even if it doesn't make sense either way).

[AmonGwareth]

For the record, iif you don't like depending upon a biped in the Delgarath Militia quests then don't do them. They aren't required quests by any stretch. You don't need them to become adult or ancient, to get any breath weapon, to finish the Dralnok storyline or to get into Dralnok's Doom, to get Drulkar's Wrath, or anything as a Dragon (or even as a Biped).

[Raptress]

Nevermind the fact that I need a biped to grow - that in itself is insulting. What would it be like if in order to get past level 30 in anything all bipeds had to get stuff from dragons? Now THAT is equality (even if it doesn't make sense either way).

What exactly do dragons need for either RoP from bipeds? O_o I honestly don't recall needing anything biped-exclusive during a bunch of RoP runs I've done recently.

Either way, yeah.. The "interdependence" is a bit out of whack, but.. bipeds have the harder game to play. Being a (melee) dragon is essentially "easy mode". So, the game's just off balance between bipeds and dragons as a whole, and I'm not sure we'll ever see that fixed.

Oh, and dragons still have Drakul. The teleporter that was supposed to give bipeds access was removed. It makes one wonder if they were ever going to be allowed in the first place. -_-

[Dhalin]

For the record, iif you don't like depending upon a biped in the Delgarath Militia quests then don't do them. They aren't required quests by any stretch. You don't need them to become adult or ancient, to get any breath weapon, to finish the Dralnok storyline or to get into Dralnok's Doom, to get Drulkar's Wrath, or anything as a Dragon (or even as a Biped).

So basically, your solution is to tell dragons "Just don't Do it".

Here's a good list:

1). Dragons cannot get Khutit Form without bipeds. "Just don't Do It." Okay, so dragons will have a very difficult time using a lot of player-made towns' machinery, etc...

2). One must get bipeds to make keys. "Don't open chests!" So its fair that Bipeds have access to these chests (which, I assume, have treasure in them?) and dragons don't, without relying upon bipeds? That's a touch unfair.... We asked about that, and the only dev answer we could get is "Then don't open them." Okaaaay.

3). "Don't do the Militia quests!" ... so we're supposed to just skip a good bit of the game's content... that's a nice reply.

4). Food/DP Removal. MAJOR, MAJOR aspect of the game right here.

But, let's take a look at the OTHER side, shall we?

What exactly do Bipeds depend upon Dragons for? Nothing.

So, here's the tally:

Dragons need Bipeds for:

1). Khutit Form Quest (Major. It is very difficult to play a dragon without it)
2). Keys (Can't open treasure chests without them, you lose the opportunity to get that loot).
3). Food (Can't remove DP very fast without it. Major, Major aspect of the game here.)
4). Militia quests
5). Attuning quest (the one with the cotton as mentioned above).

Bipeds need Dragons for:

Um.....?


Doesn't that seem just a LITTLE off-balance to you guys? Dragons have two very major dependencies upon Bipeds, and 3 minor ones. Bipeds have what dependencies, again? That's right.... none that I can think of. Not a single one.

I don't see "Interdependence" here. I see "Dragons Depend Upon Bipeds" and that's that, end of story.

[AmonGwareth]

So basically, your solution is to tell dragons "Just don't Do it".

No, what I said was that for that one quest series which was a key beef in the OPs post. I said nothing about the rest.

[Knossos]

There is also a Dragon quest which calls for armor and scale dye kits in various colors - again Dragone must rely on Bipeds for dye kits - or not take the quest.

I have also had requests from Dragons for Purified Radiant Essense Orbs for a quest...

Knossos

[Akrion]

/signed for the OP -

Draak quest being the only one in the entire game. And apparenlty, now one scale for one other quest - the rest the dragon needing the biped to do anything else.

:/

Devs you can spout "interdepencency" all you want - but the fact is you don't back it up and you never have. Its always been one sided and I just don't see that ever changing. Unfortunately, I also don't see you admitting this and reversing the dragons needing it in the first place.

Nevermind the fact that I need a biped to grow - that in itself is insulting. What would it be like if in order to get past level 30 in anything all bipeds had to get stuff from dragons? Now THAT is equality (even if it doesn't make sense either way).

Nothing stopping you from going past level 30 as a hatchling. :P Not quite the best example there.

I've done the Helian RoP and I don't recall needing anything from a biped for that. The only thing I needed biped wise was the steel rune stylus for Khutit, but that was after the RoP. So even further I don't think your level 30 example works very well.

After spending 7 months on Akrion and then 7 months on Ikaron, I can say I personally feel things balance out somewhat (before the upcoming scholar revamp).

I'll only get into anything that's really relevant to the post:

A Biped doesn't really have any quest on the same level of epicness as the RoP and ARoP, so on the RP side of things, I really missed that while playing Akrion. I could have my character somewhat involved in the RoP to atleast help feel a part of things, but very little for the ARoP. I'd gladly make sacrafices on my Biped so I could have really neat quests like that. (Epic spell quests are a joke IMO, the Draak attunement is the only one that feels epic)

So I'm a bit against getting rid of the small things that Dragons need from a Biped for Khutit/ARoP unless these quests can either be made to allow bipeds more involvement so long as the Dragon agrees to the help, or Bipeds can get some more quests of their own as they're the very few times a Biped can actually be involved in a Dragon's growing, because even if a Dragon wishes for a specific Biped to be there with them for their ARoP, it can't really happen.


However I do completely agree that this whole "Interdependance" thing is a joke. Dragons need Bipeds for a whole lot more things than Bipeds need Dragons for, which is just silly any way you look at it. Even official lore shows that the number of things that Dragons need Bipeds for (And little the other way around) is just dumb.

The upcoming scholar revamp is just going to make it worse. IMO the only real use a Dragon is for a Biped is a Melee Dragon's gold rage. It's sad too, because Dragons have so many things that Bipeds could need to rely on them for. The Draak attunement idea of a Biped needing a Dragon to sponsor them could be the same with all the current Dragon-Only places for example.

It's just all a mess. Dragon's need Bipeds for things way more than Bipeds need Dragons while at the same time Dragon's have quests and locations that Bipeds don't have and can't be a part of, or can't reach.


Edit: *Quotes everything Dhalin said and completely agrees with it*

[Zanukk Sytheclaw]

No, what I said was that for that one quest series which was a key beef in the OPs post. I said nothing about the rest.

Oh but that questline nets you the heroes resolve ability part of the unsung hero quest line. Any new ability i can get on my dragon to do somthing more = a must have.

so i want to get it done yes. Im NOT asking for dragons to suddenly become independant and can do everything on their own NO. Im just asking if quests like these are going to be made where we , bipeds and dragons alike have to search for a list of things from eachother is to be EQUAL.

you know half biped only stuff half dragon stuff. That alone changes things a great deal than what you think. I Zanukk Scytheclaw would love that a biped would stop and ask me to make him somthing needed to finish a quest for once.
I dont mind asking, I have done most of em already but it Irks me I cannot contribue to the community. Bipeds contribue, make the community strong with this INterdependance. but what are dragons for. Ill tell you. they are only good to fly resorces quicker than bipeds which has nothing to do with questing at all.

quest like these I dont mind. I just wonder how hard it is to add a few more dragon things to the list and take off a few of the biped ones just to get a genuine feel of interdependance.

[AmonGwareth]

Oh, for the record again... The Steel Rune Stylus was removed as a requirement of the "Learn to Change your Form" quest in the "Threat of the Skulks" content update in February. The patch note was mistakenly not included which is why you did not know about the change.

[Akrion]

Oh but that questline nets you the heroes resolve ability part of the unsung hero quest line. Any new ability i can get on my dragon to do somthing more = a must have.

so i want to get it done yes. Im NOT asking for dragons to suddenly become independant and can do everything on their own NO. Im just asking if quests like these are going to be made where we , bipeds and dragons alike have to search for a list of things from eachother is to be EQUAL.

you know half biped only stuff half dragon stuff. That alone changes things a great deal than what you think. I Zanukk Scytheclaw would love that a biped would stop and ask me to make him somthing needed to finish a quest for once.
I dont mind asking, I have done most of em already but it Irks me I cannot contribue to the community. Bipeds contribue, make the community strong with this INterdependance. but what are dragons for. Ill tell you. they are only good to fly resorces quicker than bipeds which has nothing to do with questing at all.

quest like these I dont mind. I just wonder how hard it is to add a few more dragon things to the list and take off a few of the biped ones just to get a genuine feel of interdependance.

As one who puts an equal amount of time between my Biped character and my Dragon character, I approve of this message! The "Then just don't do it because you don't have to" excuse doesn't cut it, at all, for any quest. Period.

And in response to this "You don't have to do it" or "Just don't do it" mentality I'm seeing from the dev team:

Should everybody make new accounts and do the free-to-play thing? After all since you don't have to pay-to-play it falls within reason that it's perfectly fine for everybody to just do free-to-play. Sure they won't have access to all the content in the game, but a lot of the new content in this game seems to be falling under this "You don't have to" thing quite a bit lately anyway so what's the loss? Oh, right. Content. It doesn't matter how you try to cut it, when everyone's told that "You don't have to use this content", the only difference in telling everybody that and "You don't have to pay"(And use the content you get from paying) is with one you're losing money, and with the other you're not. And I'm willing to bet that the feeling is quite different when you imagine trying to tell people they could just cancel their paying sub.

[AmonGwareth]

Now that I think about it, I've got no problem making a Dragon-version of the Militia quest. *adds it to the task list*

Which attunement quest in particular are you referring to? (whats the name)

[Shian]

Now that I think about it, I've got no problem making a Dragon-version of the Militia quest. *adds it to the task list*

Which attunement quest in particular are you referring to? (whats the name)

Attunement to Valley of The Moon
Attunement to Valley of Repose
Attunement to Aroah's Leap
Attunement to Brandon's Shelf
Attunement to Rift's Edge

Can we change one of those to require crystals, so we both have to bug each other for stuff instead of us bugging bipeds for the cotton?

[Velea]

Attunement to Valley of The Moon
Attunement to Valley of Repose
Attunement to Aroah's Leap
Attunement to Brandon's Shelf
Attunement to Rift's Edge

Can we change one of those to require crystals, so we both have to bug each other for stuff instead of us bugging bipeds for the cotton?

I've done those quests with my dragon and biped both, on multiple characters/servers and don't remember having to have one race or the other.

This is all from memory, as at the moment I can't connect to the database to confirm but...

Valley of Moon is the one where you have to get gold ore.

Valley of Repose you have to get obsidian.

Aroah's leap you're correct if you're doing the crafting version requires you to collect cotton, so a dragon can't do that. I did the kill task version, though I forget what I have to kill.

Brandon's Shelf is granite.

And Rift's edge is another metal, I think, but can't recall which.

So there is a single quest that if you're a dragon crafter you can't do... but then again unless you're a biped who can gather cotton, you can't do it either.

[Shian]

Yes, Velea that was the point. Dragons are required to ask for cotton from bipeds as there is no other way on Istaria to get them. We're asking to change one of those to require crystals, so it works both ways.