Low-Level Crafting could use a couple tweaks.

[Dhalin]

I'm aware that the T1 revamp has already been done, but it seems to be solely focused on the adventuring side (except for a few T1 quests involving crafted materials, like the quest that wants 50 cut gems).

I'd like to express some concerns that I saw in another thread in the Biped forums, and I feel that a suggestion could be made.

In T2 and later crafting, one can choose which tier of materials to work with -- those who wisely feel that working something you can gather faster is better will likely level faster than those who wish to advance to the next tier right away.

The problem is, in T1, you don't have a choice. And it takes a very long time for you to start getting more than 1-2 per gather. You don't start to see regular 3's until your mid-to-late teens, at least, depending on the craft. This is, of course, assuming you didn't start with Miner/Gatherer (many people suggest _against_ doing this, due to just how slow it is to level and dragons don't even have that option at all).

Also, in T1, the amount of bonuses you can receive are very limited. In other tiers, it isn't too uncommon to rack up +50 or more skill, to reach a good gather rate much sooner. In Tier1, though, getting more than +10 is a pure chore, as +2s don't add up to much.

Also, most Tier1 crafters have little in the way of stats, while upper tiers have a lot more bonuses from stats.

What this all translates to, is that the Crafting Game starts out very painfully slow, so slow that people are suggesting that you don't even bother crafting, that one should go out and farm crystals from NT undead. Of course, I risk getting those crystals nerfed by saying this, but I can't help but to agree -- spending a couple minutes hoping for a +500 crafting experience crystal to drop is far better than spending 10+ minutes trying to fill a 1200-bulk pack by gathering 1s and 2s.

So, my suggestion(s)+

1). I feel we should lower the optimal gather/process skill down to 100 for Tier 1. This would not impact Tiers 2 and beyond; it would simply allow people to get to max gather/process skill faster, and allow the first 20 levels to not be so much of a pain. Instead of having to wait until level 23+ to get max gather/process skill on many crafts, you would instead receive it at level 13-ish. Note, I am only suggesting this for Gathering and Processing. Other crafting skills would not be changed, and this would only be for Tier 1, to give early crafting game a boost.

2). Starting Bulk. Why do we start with a 1000-bulk pack, and have to go hunt down a crafter to obtain a 1200-bulk pack? Even 1200 bulk isn't really enough, that's only 120 resources. Bipeds also need tools; each is 10 IIRC, so bipeds can only carry 100 resources, if they managed to find someone to make them a leather pack. I'm wondering if we shouldn't raise that a little, or lower the levels required for T1 cargo armor.

3). Refurbished Cargo Disk. I feel that a Level 5, 1 Stack, High Bulk cargo disk should be available from the refurbished equipment NPC. Make it a refurbished Tarbash that is equip-able at level 5, and give it 1k less bulk than a tarbash, and maybe slightly slower movement speed than a t1 tarbash. I don't know about Chaos, but on Order it isn't too uncommon to see no cargo disks on the NT consigner sometimes, and without a cargo disk, it takes _forever_ to get your first craft started.

4). Unfinished Content. you guys gave the Blacksmith on NT a whole load of quests that one can do, for XP/Money/Tokens. The problem is, none of the other trainers have any quests whatsoever (last I heard, even the normal 'get me x of this' were removed). Even if not, the "get me x of this" quests don't reward money or give you starting forms. I suggest going back and doing quests for the other trainers on NT, or since Blacksmithing is the easiest craft to get to 100 first (and mayhaps the most beneficial, as you can make your own tools and have a wide range of gathering/processing skills), have one of the starters point people to the Blacksmith first, so that they can get some starting cash?

[Frith-Rae]

Sounds good to me. All of these suggestions! I likes'em!

Anything that helps someone break into those early craft levels is a good thing.

[AmonGwareth]

1). I feel we should lower the optimal gather/process skill down to 100 for Tier 1. This would not impact Tiers 2 and beyond; it would simply allow people to get to max gather/process skill faster, and allow the first 20 levels to not be so much of a pain. Instead of having to wait until level 23+ to get max gather/process skill on many crafts, you would instead receive it at level 13-ish. Note, I am only suggesting this for Gathering and Processing. Other crafting skills would not be changed, and this would only be for Tier 1, to give early crafting game a boost.

I disagree with this. It really doesn't take much to gain levels in crafting and you will very quickly see improvement in your gathering rate.

2). Starting Bulk. Why do we start with a 1000-bulk pack, and have to go hunt down a crafter to obtain a 1200-bulk pack? Even 1200 bulk isn't really enough, that's only 120 resources. Bipeds also need tools; each is 10 IIRC, so bipeds can only carry 100 resources, if they managed to find someone to make them a leather pack. I'm wondering if we shouldn't raise that a little, or lower the levels required for T1 cargo armor.

Refurb Backpack. That is a possibility.

3). Refurbished Cargo Disk. I feel that a Level 5, 1 Stack, High Bulk cargo disk should be available from the refurbished equipment NPC. Make it a refurbished Tarbash that is equip-able at level 5, and give it 1k less bulk than a tarbash, and maybe slightly slower movement speed than a t1 tarbash. I don't know about Chaos, but on Order it isn't too uncommon to see no cargo disks on the NT consigner sometimes, and without a cargo disk, it takes _forever_ to get your first craft started.

This is also a possibility.

4). Unfinished Content. you guys gave the Blacksmith on NT a whole load of quests that one can do, for XP/Money/Tokens. The problem is, none of the other trainers have any quests whatsoever (last I heard, even the normal 'get me x of this' were removed). Even if not, the "get me x of this" quests don't reward money or give you starting forms. I suggest going back and doing quests for the other trainers on NT, or since Blacksmithing is the easiest craft to get to 100 first (and mayhaps the most beneficial, as you can make your own tools and have a wide range of gathering/processing skills), have one of the starters point people to the Blacksmith first, so that they can get some starting cash?

Yes, we will look into completing those in the near future.

[Lillyjo]

only real problem i see with starting skills is the tools that are supplied..they cap at level 50..do you know how fast you pass that and then the tool caps your skills? you will never do more then 1 or 2 resources at a time with a starting pick. or the smelting tool.

Lillyjo, chaso server

[Dhalin]

only real problem i see with starting skills is the tools that are supplied..they cap at level 50..do you know how fast you pass that and then the tool caps your skills? you will never do more then 1 or 2 resources at a time with a starting pick. or the smelting tool.

Lillyjo, chaso server

Which is the reason why everyone should start Blacksmith first, from a practical standpoint.

Blacksmithing gives you modest access to:

Wood
Stone
Metal

It allows you to make weapons, and most importantly, tools. A 100 blacksmith has near-max efficiency with T5 Gathering and Processing Tools (not counting Construction Tools), and should be able to handle production tools as well.

Leveling Blacksmith to 100 first opens doors for you to get into a lot of other crafts; doing Scholar next adds Essence to the list of things you can gather modestly (max eff. with t4) and it is a very easy craft to level (you can go from 1 to 100 on nothing but stone tools).

Now, I understand that not *everyone* wants to be a Blacksmith, but I feel that it should be highly recommended that everyone get at least 10-15 levels of it to start with, so that they can make tools.

[velveeta]

can't agree with dha's above post more......i would add that once you have blacksmith, it is recommended that one also level at least gatherer to 100, to support the 'softer' resources like wood, fabric, and essence....i neglected to so the second part after vel leveled blacksmith, and now i regret it......

[Dhalin]

can't agree with dha's above post more......i would add that once you have blacksmith, it is recommended that one also level at least gatherer to 100, to support the 'softer' resources like wood, fabric, and essence....i neglected to so the second part after vel leveled blacksmith, and now i regret it......

The problem with gatherer, though, is that like miner, it just plain levels too dang slowly once you get up into the 60s-70s. Being that processed resources are the only thing you can do to raise its level, it takes stinking _forever_ to get anywhere.

However, if you used my idea of doing Blacksmith and then Scholar to 100, the only things you are missing (not including construction):

Gemcutting (you can quarry the gems, but not cut them)
Food-related (including fishing)
Cloth
Leather

With having Blacksmith and Scholar up, Jeweler would be easy to level to the 60s+ on Platinum Bars. and for Cloth and Leather, you could either do Outfitter (use Platinum Bars again), or Gatherer (which will be a heck of a lot slower, use T4 wood or Orbs I assume until 80-ish).

Alternatively, instead of doing Jeweler, one could do Miner up until roughly 75 to get max eff. with T4 gems (more XP per load as gems weigh less than ore).

Either way, trying to get that first craft (again, Blacksmith is _highly_ recommended) up to 100% efficiency with T1 is the hardest part of all of this; once you do that, it is smooth (albeit time-consuming) sailing clear to 100s, as long as you use the simple rule of not moving onto the next tier until you have 2:1 in its basic resource. Once you get Blacksmith to 100, you should never again have to work anything less than T4 to gain levels in your crafts.

[C`gan]

Something I'd like to add for consideration. As part of the tutorial, a notification about crafting skill could pop up as the beginning character nears the level 50 cap. It would check to see whether or not the tool is capping the skill. If it does and the character is within 7 points of that cap, it could pop up a tutorial bubble saying that the skill is nearing the tool's cap and give directions on how to check it, as well as offer a solution (Talk to Millicent, Speak with the appropriate trainer with the form for that tool, Describe teching, Offer a new chat tab to Markeplace).

[Duergos]

The other problem with leveling gatherer/miner to 100 early on lies in the decon skill.

Sure a salvage awl can be used and items can be decon'ed manually for xp but wow what a pain.

For auto decon I always suggest saving miner and gatherer for last, same goes for tink.

[Guaran]

One tweak I would support would be perhaps some more quests on Guran, and maybe something similiar also set up for Outfitter, since these are the 2 main, basic craft schools. Scholar was a 3rd but it is being changed. Leveling these first (by presenting them to players first) is a valid crafting strategy to get players started. Guiding them along this path is a sufficient tweak imho. Outfitter quests could be put in Kion.

only real problem i see with starting skills is the tools that are supplied..they cap at level 50..do you know how fast you pass that and then the tool caps your skills? you will never do more then 1 or 2 resources at a time with a starting pick. or the smelting tool.

Lillyjo, chaso server

This is a good point. Just get rid of the 50 skillcap tools and replace them with refurbished t1 tools. Have the trainers hand out the refurb gear. They could still have a skillcap, 150 or 200 and no socket. So while they could suffice where needed, there would still be impetus to replace them. In the rare event a player cannot find replacement, they are not held to very low skills for the basic tools at least. The refurb tools could be limited to resource gathering items, and possibly the processing. As long as it is possible for a player to craft his own t1 tools using the trainer provided ones. I haven't looked at it closely, but I wouldn't want say 100 minimum skill on t1 smelting tongs for example, such that a player would always be capped at 50 and therefore unable to craft his own. If they go thru that for a day or two at the skillcap, and then could make their own to get past it that is probably sufficient. But I can see the point about a 50 skill mining pick and no change being seen as the new player gained levels, and that could quickly become discouraging. Some of the new quests (if they do not exist already) could be to guide a new player thru crafting themselves replacements for those basic tools applicable to that school. So for Blacksmith, could be quests to make a new mining pick, smelting tongs, stone chisel, hammer, treeaxe, woodsaw, and board plane. The Outfitter quests in Kion could do the same for fabric processing tools and include the metal processing tool quests that Guran would have, allowing them to be done if someone skipped them on Guran.

Edit: just double checked, it appears all the basic tools are 1 skill minimum to craft (and a few at 50 like gemcutter). So handing out refurb tools for gathering steps may be sufficient.