The FUTURE

[fermi443]

Istaria better look like this in at least 10 years... or I'll eat the developers.

http://www.pspsps.tv/lair_sc1.jpg

Dynamic shading world and local lighting, bump mapping/lighting , advanced physics....
Dynamic vector drawing. I'm tired of playing a game I could run on my Nintendo 64 ):<

[meepsa]

I'd rather not have Istaria look like that, the way it is now gives a certain feel, but I do agree, the graphics look a "bit" out-dated...

[Starstilanxs]

Funny enough about that, is the fact that Istaria did have great graphics in the past. Even from what it looks like from various pictures, higher resolution textures; even had dynamic shadows.

I have been actually working to reimpliment the shadows as I have the original HZ disk's, but havn't had any luck so far. Though there isn't any way the game will ever look like that due to the engine constraints (unless the company suddenly gained several million to redo it)

[Akrion]

A complete graphical revamp wouldn't be very cheap, nor very fast. :P A lot of stuff would need to change, primarily the graphics engine would need to be updated to support modern day graphics. In order to accomplish anything close to that screenshot Istaria would need to:

• Update the graphics engine to support modern day rendering techniques.
• Redo every model in the game to increase the poly count and thus the detail.
• Redo every texture in the game to give them a more realistic look.
• Redo every sound in the game to match the new model and texture quality.
• Test their graphical revamp on a wide variety of computer configurations.

That's just a short list and just 1 of those would be asking a -lot- of time and money from Virtrium to accomplish, not to mention they'd probably be losing a number of players due to them being unable to run the game.

And personally I prefer Istaria's current graphics over many modern day graphics. The one thing I think it could use is a particle revamp for spells and effects, which is something they seem to be considering.

[Raptress]

I'm tired of playing a game I could run on my Nintendo 64 ):<

You aren't talking about Istaria then. :P

That said.. don't get your hopes up. You do know how tiny Istaria's dev team is, right? You know they don't exactly have millions of dollars like the developers of Lair almost certainly did, right?

Istaria's probably never going to look much different than it does right now, which to me is fine. I like the graphics. And I like the game.

To change the graphics is to change the feel of the game itself. I certainly wouldn't want the game to look like Lair. Even minor changes to the way player characters look can upset players enough to make them leave.

And then there's the engine changes.. If they ever did anything drastic to the graphics, they may as well make an Istaria II or something.

[Steelclaw]

Ugh. Bloom!!
VG Cats hits the spot: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=222

[fermi443]

Ugh. Bloom!!
VG Cats hits the spot: http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=222

Without the bloom... I agree drastic overblooming to disguise next gen graphics lazyness would have to be avoided. Haha.

As for the development team problem, if any of you own an Xbox 360 or run Steam, then you may know of a game genre come about, called "Indie" games. Independant developer groups, some even smaller than Istaria's dev team, can produce amazing games. Its all about direction and improvement. I think the dev team is on the right track right now, they're replacing/adding new textures to dragons, and producing the new additions to the khutit models. Improving the look and feel of the game can improve immersion, whereas kill <this> quests ruin it.

@Meepsa I'd rather the dragons not look like the ones in LAIR either, it was just an example of advanced graphics, I'd hate to look that fugly in game. xP

Sounds surprisingly can be done very easily with someone skilled/imaginative enough to make them. I watched an interview with the sound producer for Halo Reach just recently, and he claimed that he was able to easily produce sounds for many scenes in the game by doing things like; smashing a ruler on his desk, shaking his desk, shaking coins in a tin can, and slamming drawers shut. I don't mind lacking an orchaestra but I'd like some more enjoyable overworld/ingame music that doesn't make me want to mute Istaria every time I play.

The connection quality of the game is sometimes absolutely frustrating as well... monsters teleporting in front of me, because my viewer is up to thirty or so seconds behind the action, busy recieving information on some object off screen that its trying to render is obnoxious.

Now something close to the screenshot at least would be acceptable, I could indeed run this game on my N64 if I had the methods to do so, some of the effects and visuals in games like Ocarina of Time far surpass those in Istaria, which is a little dissapointing.

Shadow of the Colossus (PS2):
http://www.psu.com/media/shadow-of-t...ssus-ss-21.jpg

After graphics though comes physics... one of the most dissapointing things about Istaria, was the message that came up when I tried to go for a swim. "Oh heheh... well.. you see... water doesn't like you... stay away." Whats the deal with that? I'd like an adventurous swim out to sea, in the huge areas unused by the game because of this silly technicality. High sea adventures, fishing, sailing, would add a nice spectrum of fun to this game I believe. I mean if the space is there, why not use it? I have flown over the oceans and checked, it is all there, just not used.

[Dhalin]

Now something close to the screenshot at least would be acceptable, I could indeed run this game on my N64 if I had the methods to do so, some of the effects and visuals in games like Ocarina of Time far surpass those in Istaria, which is a little dissapointing.

Dude, no offense, but um...

Do you have any clue about console hardware?

Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64

It says here that the N64 had a 93.75 Mhz processor and 4 (upgradeable to 8) MB of RDRAM.

That's the equivalent of what, a Pentium-1 PC? The only reason N64 games look as good as they do, is because they took shortcuts (like... 2-D objects that keep turning to face the camera to make them look 3-D), and a lot of the hardware was built specifically for that console, and the console isn't running bloated software (Read: Windows) in the background.

There's no stinking way you could even _think_ about running Istaria on a N64. And look at the screenshots on that page.. you're not _seriously_ telling me that those graphics are better than the ones found in Istaria?

Granted, OoT looked good for its time, but if you looked closely, you could make out the shortcuts, the "glued-on decals" that were widely used at the time, etc, yadda yadda.

I don't think you give Istaria enough credit, to be honest. How high do you have the video settings jacked up? Are you using an older computer, and are forced to turn the settings down? I've seen some _amazing_ screenshots from people using ridiculously powerful computers.

[fermi443]

Yes I realize it couldn't 'really' run on an N64, but some of the visual effects feel like something I'd see on the console, even if it was a special technique to cheat that look into the game it still looks like it. (They did a good job tricking up the graphics like that, what about techniques of the sort to boost the image Istaria presents to us?)

Also, yes I run the game on maxed settings, with forced 4x AA and filtering, and as impressive as I can force it to be, theres always room for improvement.

Some improvement to the graphical representation of the game, would certainly attract new players however. New spell effects to replace the 'fireworks' particles that dragons throw would be nice as well. Maybe some time after I finish the coursework and graduate from Game Art, I could have a go at making some improvements to the game.. who knows.

[Dhalin]

I guess I'm just in that boat that thinks that the graphics in the game already look good, environmental-wise.

Yes, spell graphics are still "Blah" and badly so. Armor could use some updating, I dislike using mail pants because they look like jammies (plate works even worse). Thankfully I play a female character as a biped, and they don't look too bad using the skilts, but even that looks a bit 'meh' to me.

But environmental-wise? I Always thought the graphics were just fine. There used to be whole fields of open nothingness, but they cut down on a lot of that with the T2 revamp, it isn't anywhere near as bad as it was, at least in T2 areas.

We could use more furniture in buildings, sure, but that's a side-issue.

[fermi443]

Agreed, I believe the way the environment is shaded/filled is well done, I've gone to high altitudes in the game to check out just how everything was shaded and the engine does a good job of making the terrain believable in that respect.

Although I would like to see environmental effects like changing weather, or places with lava like Dralk, have lava that spews particles into the air or chunks. Gas escaping explosively etc. Undulating seas (Not dynamic, but patterned animation like in Peter Jackson's King Kong the game, or Shadow of the Colossus)

The missing part like you said is character graphics, armor, clothing, weapons, spell effects, and other things. I'd like to see more detail in those textures, bump mapping, reflection, dynamic shading. Stuff that makes it look more believable and less meh. Give spells local lighting effect so they light up surrounding terrain/objects. Little things like that make a huge difference in the graphical quality of the game, and its immersion factor.

Physics would be nice too, or at least some way to prevent character clipping so I don't have to watch silly youtube videos of people fighting a boss all piled up inside of eachother, hahaha.

Note: Particle clouds we could fly through would be awesome.

Another side note: I wouldn't mind giving up hard drive space to store a static version of the world map so that I don't have to deal with streaming load times... those are what cause situations where monsters teleport to you, having already hit you twenty or so times before your viewer caught up with what they were doing to you.

[BrightCat]

I would not mind a graphics upgrade to the game, water that actually looks like water... I mean, they won't attract many new customers if the game looks old; I don't think many will be that interested. You know how it's all about cutting edge graphics these days. Games are becoming movies in terms of visuals instead of just games. As long as they keep the Istarian style that we know and love, a few extra polygons here and there and more polished models/textures/whatev would not be bad I think. Though, despite it's aged appearance, I think the game's graphics have held up well. <3 But if they want to keep going in today's market, I think some visual updates are needed. Even though it probably won't happen...

[Raptress]

Another side note: I wouldn't mind giving up hard drive space to store a static version of the world map so that I don't have to deal with streaming load times...

That would be called the world cache. Make sure your launcher isn't set to clear it every time you logout.

Physics would be nice too, or at least some way to prevent character clipping so I don't have to watch silly youtube videos of people fighting a boss all piled up inside of eachother, hahaha.

Preventing character clipping in a game with such a huge player race as dragons.. not a great idea. xP I believe FFXI had collideable player characters and all that did was annoy me. And those characters were only human-sized.

Spell effects and textures are probably the main places where Istaria can afford to expand or improve, with a few model changes thrown in since they take so long. Things that don't require major overhauls of the graphical system, in other words.

[fermi443]

That would be called the world cache. Make sure your launcher isn't set to clear it every time you logout.

Thats a temporary storage of only areas you've loaded completely, I'm talking about an on call storage of the entire world map, every time this game is updated your world cache is automatically flushed out and you have to start downloading again... When you travel to new areas with how it is now, you end up encountering monsters, while the viewer is still busy recieving and handling other things, the monsters will attack you but because the viewer is busy it doesn't get to catching up with what anything has done to you, so you end up brutally killed or wounded ten or so hits into a battle you don't even know started yet. This got very frustrating on occasion while I was leveling.

@Brightcat Indeed! I'd enjoy it spruced up a little more. Voiceovers for characters would be sweet... I'd volunteer to voice act for it even heehe, I can see it now... a game voice acted by its fans.

@Raptress I agree, a real change would take a very long time, ten or so years give or take.. I do think it is possible with the right tracks taken.

[Akrion]

To touch on the N64 thing: Ocarina of Time released in 1998, Istaria released 1 month short of 2004. Just the nostalgia factor alone is going to make you think that Ocarina of Time was graphically better than Istaria when that is not the case at all.

When Ocarina of Time was released, how many other major 3D games did you know of? .. When Istaria was released, how many other major 3D games did you know of? You're taking a game that had very few others to compare with in its time and comparing it to a game that had/has many other games to compare with in its time.

I know the effects of nostalgia, many times I feel that the graphics for the original Deus Ex are better than many modern day games even though that's far from the truth as in reality modern day games -are- much better graphically. The very fact that Deus Ex is one of my all-time favorite games, a game which I still find replay value in, makes me unconditionally prefer the graphics to it over more modern games.

Ocarina of Time vs Istaria:



Put them side by side and they don't look very comparable, atleast for me.


As for the point about Xbox 360 indie console development:
For one, console games are all-in-all easier to create for one simple fact: You know exactly what hardware that everybody else will have with a console. For a computer game, there is an almost endless number of hardware configurations.

For two, you can not compare Indie developers for the Xbox 360 to Virtrium. Indie developers are usually making single player games, often of a much lower complexity in comparison to Istaria, and they are especially not making an MMORPG. Virtrium doesn't just have to pay for their staff, they have to pay for and maintain their servers, which isn't going to be very cheap.

The cost to develop and maintain an MMORPG is very different compared to making a single player game. There's a reason why most indie devs don't even touch on trying to make an MMO, and if they ever do, they're often financed by a large publisher such as EA or Sony.

[Dhalin]

Thats a temporary storage of only areas you've loaded completely, I'm talking about an on call storage of the entire world map, every time this game is updated your world cache is automatically flushed out and you have to start downloading again... When you travel to new areas with how it is now, you end up encountering monsters, while the viewer is still busy recieving and handling other things, the monsters will attack you but because the viewer is busy it doesn't get to catching up with what anything has done to you, so you end up brutally killed or wounded ten or so hits into a battle you don't even know started yet. This got very frustrating on occasion while I was leveling.

Actually, the World Cache can hold files for _months_. Actually, Forever, until there's an update that requires you to clear your cache.

I've had to do that _twice_ during the last _year_. The game automatically updates, and gets rid of old data when it comes to player-made buildings/lairs, but otherwise, the rest of the map never changes.

My teleports from, say, Bristugo to Guild: Sakon (for Isle of Wisps) are <5 seconds. Same for Bristugo to Kenaf Port. I mean that, literally. Click button, see the loading screen just long enough to read the words, bam, I'm there and ready.

Don't flush the world cache unless you really need to, and your game should run a lot better when teleporting.

[fermi443]

Actually, the World Cache can hold files for _months_. Actually, Forever, until there's an update that requires you to clear your cache.

I've had to do that _twice_ during the last _year_. The game automatically updates, and gets rid of old data when it comes to player-made buildings/lairs, but otherwise, the rest of the map never changes.

My teleports from, say, Bristugo to Guild: Sakon (for Isle of Wisps) are <5 seconds. Same for Bristugo to Kenaf Port. I mean that, literally. Click button, see the loading screen just long enough to read the words, bam, I'm there and ready.

Don't flush the world cache unless you really need to, and your game should run a lot better when teleporting.

Teleports work just fine for me, my point made, was that just plain exploring has issues. I would never as a player go through the chore of thouroughly exploring the ENTIRE world map to cache all of the game manually, so that I don't end up with the encounters with monsters I explained. As a player, it is not fun nor immersive to sit and wait for an area to load around me, not from a teleport, but from traveling manually to a destination. Like I said its especially aggrivating to get attacked by something and not know it has happened for up to 30 seconds or more even, and have to either take a deathpoint, or throw on some crazy heals to save my butt because the game's viewer code says it has to load other things in the scenery before it emulates the actions of creatures around me. As I suggested, a simple fix would be to allow an install of the entire world map. Players like myself who have a hard drive capable of handling the information would greatly benefit from a rearranged viewer that withdrew the map information from our hard drives instead, and loaded the map fast enough so that we wouldn't have this problem.

To address the side by side image comparison, of a random scene from both games. Ocarina of Time wasn't my favorite game from back then, nor do I think it was the best graphics of the time, It was simply an example because I remember distinctly some of its key contents. One of the great things about that game were some of the visual effects, particles and other bells and whistles that would go off once and a while. The game in general is of lower quality than Istaria which is true, and in general is lesser in the graphics department. However if Istaria were to borrow from the techniques/virtues to create visual effects like those great ones from games like Ocarina of Time, I think it would greatly impact immersion and the overall feel of the game positively.

Istaria would benefit greatly from a bells and whistles update, is what I'm saying, minute changes to effects from spells and other happenings in the game slowly working up to improving the overall graphical quality of the world in general. A complete revamp of the game itself is an immense undertaking, and I very clearly understand the challenge that presents. What the development team is doing now is on the right road to improving the experience, small changes here and there over time slowly pile up and become a huge change in the long run. This is why I said ten or so years, because that is the going pace of things as they are now.

[Akrion]

To take from the techniques used for visual effects in Ocarina of Time in Istaria would be to step backwards. o.O One example that Dhalin pointed out being sprites coded to rotate with you to give the appearance of 3 dimensions, that's not a technique that would benefit Istaria. Many of the techniques developed for rendering graphics on the N64 would have been developed to emulate an effect not possible to obtain with the hardware they had available; same goes with just about any platform of any era. Istaria's graphics would not benefit at all from using techniques developed for the N64.

And while Istaria might benefit some from more bells and whistles, it would currently benefit far more from further gameplay fixes like trying to eliminate as much lag as possible from instances such as entering a dormant zone, or getting rid of memory leaks like with porting. There are so many things that currently take priority over a graphical revamp that having the dev team focus entirely on just making graphics better would be detrimental to actual gameplay.

Gameplay always holds priority over graphics, because without gameplay your game's graphics mean nothing.

[Frith-Rae]

Yea I'm with AKrion - as much as I'd love to see awesomer graphics in the game - MMORPGs crowds are actually not as wooed with "state of the edge graphics" as they are with improved grind masking in questing and crafting, improved game mechanics, less lag, and just things being more FUN to do.

All MMORPGS DO the same thing, the players/retention/money comes in when you do it better (i.e. mask the grind lol) than others.

Awesome graphics are nice for a week or two, but if the game is buggy, laggy, unplayable, boring, grindy, reptitive, etc. then graphics will NOT keep anyone.

Just look at AOC to know that. And look at WoW to know it as well. AOC graphics - pretty; population sucky. WoW graphics ARE pretty, but certainly not advanced (they just do some good tricks!), but far more subbers do to it masking the grind the best .

I'd much rather the dev invest the time and effort into updating the game mechanics within the engine we have (because sorry but an engine rebuild from the ground up for a graphics overhaul is just out of hte question really...come on guys...), coming up with better quests and taking out the grind in questing/crafting in various new ways - than just making the grass look shinier.

[fermi443]

@Akrion I totally agree, moving backwards using techniques that are outdated by the capabilities of this games engine is a bad idea. This is why I stated "Techniques/virtues" because like you said, the developers of those older console games were tricking the system to create effects they can't normally achieve. To achieve the real effects the games of old were trying to produce is the right step foreward, and is what I'm trying to point out here as a good idea.

@Frith-Rae I agree with you as well Frith, Lag is a big issue here, I've already been over issues related to loading the world around the character via streaming environment... There are many more lag causers like the ones you described as well, and they fit under the category of the appearence of the game. You visually see choppy animation, and jumpy code when the game lags.

One thing I'd like to point out to you both though is that game play does have a direct correlation to graphical quality, or at least it can. It all depends on what kind of improvements we're talking about here. Immersion is a popular term in the gaming world. One of the primary examples of Immersion is where you play a role or character, and interact with characters that you're expected to be able to sympathise with or understand their emotions. One of the greatest techniques to create Immersion for your players, is to provide a detailed experience that lets your player project their personality into the world. Voice-overs for characters or NPCs is becoming a more popular technique in the MMO world.

For example:
(In an imaginary world where crazy stuff like I'm about to explain happens, bear with me.)

Example One [Istaria Now]:
I'm the NPC, standing in a static pose, not moving, and I'm confronted by one of you the players in conversation with a text box paragraph. I remain completely silent but I've just conveyed a message to you, my face stays stale and in a straight foreward stare expression, but in the paragraph I explain something I'm truely passionate about that I've lost, and I need you to go find it. [So you go on the quest] I thank you and promise to provide you with training to improve your <ability> in exchange for your time to do this for me.

Example Two [Immersive Techniques]:
I'm the NPC, looking busy wherever I am. I'm breathing, blinking, and working at some desk or something, looking concerned when you confront me. I turn to you and sigh audibly, captions come up on screen as a speak to aid your understanding, but everything I say is heard in a voice over. I talk to you and aknowledge you as a living being in this world and beseech you to find <item> I'm passionate about... I lost it in <place> and I can't continue working happily without it... (You accept the quest) I smile and give you a cheesy thumbs up or something like that, and thank you in advance. I then tell you I'll provide you with some training to improve your <ability> in exchange for your time to do this for me.

Through all of example two you can hear the changes in tone of my voice and really hear emotions come forth from what would normally be a static mound of text, from a stale unmoving NPC. As a core gamer, I feel much more involved and have much more fun with a game that engages me and makes me feel like I'm part of it's world. Mass Effect 1 and 2 show how making engaging characters and backstories can improve the immersion/gameplay.

Now before you go... "Well Fermi they can't do this NOW, the dev team is too small." I know the Dev team is tiny. I think one of the best ways for the small team to get around this weakness is to use the strength in their fans. It would be absolutely fun in my opinion, if the team could involve fans to help them make improvements to the game. Those of us with mics and recording programs, could try and voice act some of the dialogue, or changed dialogue in game, and the devs need only simply add playback to the game of voices they think fit the characters. I have no doubt some of you would be more than happy to provide voicing for free as long as you get side credit for the contribution.

Small gestures like speaking animations aren't difficult and can be looped, they don't have to be absolutely unique either because this is an MMO, and there just isn't time to make every part of the game like the new Final Fantasy games or Mass Effect titles. However this is the good thing about smaller improvements like this, they have a much greater impact in the immersion factor of the gameplay, which is extremely important in the overall enjoyability of the game, and like Frith said "Masking the grind." It makes you feel like your character has more of a purpose in what he or she is doing.

On a side note, no I'm not saying everything should be abandoned on the fix-it list to go for graphics only... I'm saying that improvements like these would be a good idea and of interest to gain customers and keep them around longer.