Talked with newbies: here are their game stopping issues and hints

[Vahrokh]

I'd like to post here some thing I experienced talking with real newbies in these days.

Issues completely not related with the quality of the game kick away 8 out of 10 of the potential future subscribers.


1) No intro. Every MMO they play shows something either talking about lore or actual game play, usually videos. Istaria shows them a bland blue window that screams "close and ignore me" and then gets them in trouble.

Sure, it's their fault, but THEY are those who ultimately decide to bring in money or not.

There are several totally useful web sites, the Crimson Dawn one being VERY helpful to newbies. Maybe the new players could be given links if a movie is too much.

2) More clues about what to do in the first isle. The first isle and NT are usually where they quit.

In particular:

- Not a single one would know that they could drag skills onto the hotbars. They ALL (those who talked with me / dragon chat) fought with no skills and died again and again. Most of the time they had to resort asking for advice about why they suck. Having a first day player wondering why he sucks and fails again and again is not going to help keeping him in the game.

Even myself, I forgot a lot of the game, entered with an alt and did not recall about the "drag abilities to hotbars" and spent some minutes wondering what was going on. Imagine a total first timer.

- If it's a newbie, don't send him "to the other end of the island" to dig gems, they are not accustomed at the fact Istaria is vague. They don't even know how gems are supposed to be, I had a guy standing near me with no idea those dots were gems and had to be digged.

- Top of the top of the learning curve (sometimes it's a wall): dragon who needs to craft. There's NO way a new player of "our times" (ie accustomed to easy interfaces) is going to self-understand the long sequence starting from zero - an empty hotbar and ending with the finished product. After 20 minutes fumbling with it, they give up and close shop. A video of the whole sequence (since there's no manual or anything unlike at our times) MUST be made. This is really a nasty impact they get.

- I don't know if this is intended or not, but not having Bristugo available as new character is a killer. Bristugo is "our town", where to find people.
Going to Kion? Sure, it's perfect as game design, but you just end in a desert and then they start asking: "does anyone play this game?" which alone is a big demotivator. Plus if they need gear (like always), they will be somewhere in Lesser Aradoth with no idea how to come get it at Bristugo, where THE connie is and where players ask them to go get stuff.
I know they can go to NT but that's to get the newbie get there and then moving your character there and basically waste time - not all will be available to help them then.

- The chats - they should really be WAY more evident to be used, and all of the ones "we" older players use.

Once again, newbies (and myself having played most MMOs) know that asking on chats = be derided, talked names etc. etc. They don't know Istaria is different, something has to tell them to ask. Else they will not ask for help and will eventually desist.

- NPC are all but helpful. They won't even appear until you smash your face on them, the map won't show a (!) where they can go get a quest. This is something every single vaguely modern MMO does.
Now I know that Istaria got technical limitations so that NPC appear late but the substitution of the general blue circle on map with a (!) has to be feasible.

- new players expect to somewhat find a "story", not only about lore which Virtrium has worked hard to improve but also a sequence of activities. IE at least for tier 1 they should get quests to be sent to the various NPCs (even just to learn what their purpose is) in a sort of chain.

- new players don't get a clue about the various NPC functions (no, the blue window has been closed ages before) so they see a consigner and don't know what to do, or they see a trainer and don't know they can right click and trade for formulas. This is said by the game somewhere but not in a way a new player will know to do it when it's needed.

- new players should not be WTFPWND by the first "super-extra-weak-humble-gruok" they meet. Have them able to kill level 1 and 2 and then make the game progressively harder. Else since there's also the above, they will really not want to continue. Of course the slaughter comes worse because when they meet said gruok they did not know to have to drag skills on the hotbar. Or they left the starter island without knowing that they won't get skills doing so and then they get thrashed hard.

[AmonGwareth]

1) No intro. Every MMO they play shows something either talking about lore or actual game play, usually videos. Istaria shows them a bland blue window that screams "close and ignore me" and then gets them in trouble.

Not every MMO, that is a major generalization.

2) More clues about what to do in the first isle. The first isle and NT are usually where they quit.

The problem here is that people often close the tutorial. You cannot teach people to play the game if they ignore the tutorial. How do I know they are ignoring the tutorial? Your examples below.

- Not a single one would know that they could drag skills onto the hotbars. They ALL (those who talked with me / dragon chat) fought with no skills and died again and again. Most of the time they had to resort asking for advice about why they suck. Having a first day player wondering why he sucks and fails again and again is not going to help keeping him in the game.

This is covered in the VERY first adventuring tutorial on Spirit Island. Again, however, if the new player ignored the tutorial.....

- If it's a newbie, don't send him "to the other end of the island" to dig gems, they are not accustomed at the fact Istaria is vague. They don't even know how gems are supposed to be, I had a guy standing near me with no idea those dots were gems and had to be digged.

On Spirit Island the tutorial will guide you to the gems or stone or ore. I believe Skalkaar does as well. It even notifies you if you go off the proper path and away from your destination.

- Top of the top of the learning curve (sometimes it's a wall): dragon who needs to craft. There's NO way a new player of "our times" (ie accustomed to easy interfaces) is going to self-understand the long sequence starting from zero - an empty hotbar and ending with the finished product. After 20 minutes fumbling with it, they give up and close shop. A video of the whole sequence (since there's no manual or anything unlike at our times) MUST be made. This is really a nasty impact they get.

For Bipeds the tutorial clearly explains every single section of item creation in detail and step by step. And in fact the first time you open ANY window in the game there is a tutorial that appears.

- I don't know if this is intended or not, but not having Bristugo available as new character is a killer. Bristugo is "our town", where to find people.
Going to Kion? Sure, it's perfect as game design, but you just end in a desert and then they start asking: "does anyone play this game?" which alone is a big demotivator. Plus if they need gear (like always), they will be somewhere in Lesser Aradoth with no idea how to come get it at Bristugo, where THE connie is and where players ask them to go get stuff.
I know they can go to NT but that's to get the newbie get there and then moving your character there and basically waste time - not all will be available to help them then.

THE connie as you put it is only there on one of the three shards. But, do you know why the consigners were left in New Trismus and Aughundell? Because we profiled the servers and those two consigners were the two most active ones across all three shards.

- The chats - they should really be WAY more evident to be used, and all of the ones "we" older players use.

This is fixed on Blight. The bug currently on live is that if you choose to skip the movement tutorial then it also skips the communication tutorial.

- NPC are all but helpful. They won't even appear until you smash your face on them, the map won't show a (!) where they can go get a quest. This is something every single vaguely modern MMO does.
Now I know that Istaria got technical limitations so that NPC appear late but the substitution of the general blue circle on map with a (!) has to be feasible.

If they have a quest, the exclamation point appears over there head. One for NPCs who have something to say if you have an active quest is a feature we are actively working on (but requires both server and client changes so it takes time).

We will NOT be adding quest indicators to the map.

- new players expect to somewhat find a "story", not only about lore which Virtrium has worked hard to improve but also a sequence of activities. IE at least for tier 1 they should get quests to be sent to the various NPCs (even just to learn what their purpose is) in a sort of chain.

Vahrokh, I would highly encourage you to create a NEW character and experience the story lines on New Trismus, Lesser Aradoth and the Dalimond Peninsula. There are nothing but quest chains in the "modern" style on them.

- new players don't get a clue about the various NPC functions (no, the blue window has been closed ages before) so they see a consigner and don't know what to do, or they see a trainer and don't know they can right click and trade for formulas. This is said by the game somewhere but not in a way a new player will know to do it when it's needed.

There is only so much that WE as game developers can do to teach players the basics. But, as a matter of fact, if you greet NPCs they tell you what they do as well and some even open more tutorial windows.

- new players should not be WTFPWND by the first "super-extra-weak-humble-gruok" they meet. Have them able to kill level 1 and 2 and then make the game progressively harder. Else since there's also the above, they will really not want to continue. Of course the slaughter comes worse because when they meet said gruok they did not know to have to drag skills on the hotbar. Or they left the starter island without knowing that they won't get skills doing so and then they get thrashed hard.

I do not feel that this is an issue at all if the tutorial is followed and read. The mobs on Spirit Isle and in fact on Skalkaar are scaled and heavily reduced in power from their normal counterparts.

Thank you for taking the time to post this.

[Fyrethorne]

I had none of those issues as a new player in the game 4 years ago. As a dragon I received clear instructions on how to fight and craft. The tutorials provided by the dragons on NT were excellent, told me how to play and be a dragon, and introduced me to important Istarian lore.

I ran in to problems at lvl 10, when I was supposed to then go to Kion, but this has now been addressed and fixed.

The new quests that came in with the T2 revamp are great! As a player I love talking to npc's and doing quests for them that mean something, not just trophy grinding for levels. Would love more of these quests, and then for them to continue through T3 & T4. Future projects perhaps?

[LOVWYRM]

Vahrokh, I too can`t agree with you here in all points.
E.g.: Bringing newbies to Bristugo is not a good idea, and Trimus is the perfect place in my eyes (and there is a porter to Bris).
An intro would be nice, yes- but maybe its enough to give a link to youTube.
Being send from npc to npc-like you described- made me stop playing other games.
Though I do not agree with Amon either in all points, but its a good idea to make a new char to experience what they see. I did and was satisfied-whatever it means if a vet is satisfied.

I have the feeling that the main prob of newbies is the absence of success.
All they gain if they have finnished a quest is- more pain^^
Maybe they are proud to have crafted their first claw/chestscale, but they will find out, that the mobs still are too hard to kill.
They should be able to level faster than later in game. Maybe up to level 20/30.
And they should get rewards they really make them feel they have achieved something. The emblems are a good tool for that. Other I can`t think of atm.
And- btw- I think some t2 mobs are really too strong.

[AmonGwareth]

I have the feeling that the main prob of newbies is the absence of success.
All they gain if they have finnished a quest is- more pain^^
Maybe they are proud to have crafted their first claw/chestscale, but they will find out, that the mobs still are too hard to kill.
They should be able to level faster than later in game. Maybe up to level 20/30.
And they should get rewards they really make them feel they have achieved something. The emblems are a good tool for that. Other I can`t think of atm.

There are quite a few rewards in the newer quests. Not just coin and xp, but also tech kits (which are better than straight items imho because they allow you to apply them to items of your choice) as well as emblems, crystals, special foods/potions, spells and more.

And- btw- I think some t2 mobs are really too strong.

The few that were mentioned after initial release of the t2 revamp were addressed. If there are others, I highly encourage players to report them. Remember, if they aren't reported then we likely don't know about them and can't fix them.

For the record, not all mobs/areas on the Dalimond Peninsula are meant to be solo'd. Skulk villages, Deadpool, Observatory, and those areas are intended more as group areas. So yes the areas may be hard if you are level 30-40 and trying to solo them.

[LOVWYRM]

did not play the newer quests so forget what I`ve said about the rewards

[Vahrokh]

Not every MMO, that is a major generalization

Ok, I'll reinstate the sentence as in "every actively updated MMO that matters".
I had the video and / or tutorials on EvE, on Warhammer (when it mattered) and in WoW. But let's not fossilize on this thing that I believe someone is addressing already.

The problem here is that people often close the tutorial. You cannot teach people to play the game if they ignore the tutorial. How do I know they are ignoring the tutorial? Your examples below.

And here is *our* problem.
They WILL ignore the tutorial, expecially because it looks like one of those "I give you some mild tips about the least used shortcuts, close and ignore me ASAP".
This is not my or your fault. This is THEIR fault, I agree.
But now comes the fun: despite it's their fault, if we don't cover the extra mile to catch them, they just go.
Now, is "being right" (on our part) affordable by the current amount of population?

This is imho Virtrium current issue: you are all right and are working well and I love every bit you do.
Does it attract new players? Some, because every day there are a couple of newbies.
Do they stay? I have to say it's an exception to see their face the next day, so there is something that makes them try (which is good) but then desist (which has to be investigated why).

For Bipeds the tutorial clearly explains every single section of item creation in detail and step by step. And in fact the first time you open ANY window in the game there is a tutorial that appears.

Does it work for dragons? There's a good number of new guys who naturally want to check the unique feature.

There is only so much that WE as game developers can do to teach players the basics. But, as a matter of fact, if you greet NPCs they tell you what they do as well and some even open more tutorial windows

One thing I found particularly aggrievating (for someone new who does not know about it) is that if you walk not really close to the NPCs they don't appear, so it's super-easy to miss them. They should be visible at least from double distance than today.

When I returned back and had to re-attune, despite I have a grasp about the game, I found it bothersome to find the relevant NPCs because some of them are off the teleporter and to see them I have to roam all over the streets.
Now, I know that when I see those "guard cabins" there should be an NPC even if they look empty but that's because I have experienced it in the past and many NPCs are not inside an hintful building.

[Akrion]

The problem here is that people often close the tutorial. You cannot teach people to play the game if they ignore the tutorial.

This is unfortunately all too true. And not at all an easy thing to solve, either. At the moment, I am unable to even begin coming up with an idea that may allow the tutorial to better entice new players to read.

If they have a quest, the exclamation point appears over there head. One for NPCs who have something to say if you have an active quest is a feature we are actively working on (but requires both server and client changes so it takes time).

We will NOT be adding quest indicators to the map.

Being a fan of Morrowind, I have to say I rather enjoy having to find my way somewhere without map indicators. Though Istaria does have some problems here and there, either something won't be descriptive enough, or the trigger point will be too specific. I recall a number of new players being unable to get the quest that has you find and kill sand pygmies to trigger because they happened to find their way to the beach via a slightly different route way and missed a rather specifically located trigger point that wasn't very close to the pygmies.

One problem I can sometimes encounter is having directions or instructions given to me via talking to an NPC, but not the quest log, and after you talk to the NPC the directions/instructions won't be said again. So perhaps a journal could be made to hold all your conversations with NPCs for a quest? Should also allow a player to more easily return to a quest later down the road if they had to stop for any reason.

[Holth]

I don't know how many times I've answered questions from a new player because they didn't take the time to read the tutorial. They close it then can't figure out how to open it back up.

Amon, is there a way you could put a big yellow question mark somewhere on the screen (off to the side) that when clicked would bring up a menu of the different tutorials or have a list of questions .. would you like more infomation about x,y,z ??

That way if they do close the window and get stuck they can reopen a tutorial that addresses the problem they are having.

Thaalia of Order

[Akrion]

Being able to reference any point of the tutorial at any time could definitely be useful.

[AmonGwareth]

I don't know how many times I've answered questions from a new player because they didn't take the time to read the tutorial. They close it then can't figure out how to open it back up.

Amon, is there a way you could put a big yellow question mark somewhere on the screen (off to the side) that when clicked would bring up a menu of the different tutorials or have a list of questions .. would you like more infomation about x,y,z ??

That way if they do close the window and get stuck they can reopen a tutorial that addresses the problem they are having.

Thaalia of Order

You can open up a tutorial on almost any window in the game at any time by clicking the question mark icon. The intro tutorial even tells you that.

But, there really isn't any way to "restart" the Spirit Island or Skalkaar tutorials once you have indicated you don't want to see them any longer. They are triggered by various activities such as location or receiving quests or things. And there's really no way a button could know at what point you were at or where you wanted to restart.

Every time you open a window you get a blue box popup. Yes, Vahrokh, even Dragons get it. The window tutorials are not determined by location or by race, but only by the window itself.

[Freelancer]

But, there really isn't any way to "restart" the Spirit Island or Skalkaar tutorials once you have indicated you don't want to see them any longer. They are triggered by various activities such as location or receiving quests or things. And there's really no way a button could know at what point you were at or where you wanted to restart.

Is it possible to add a tutorials item to the main menu? Then new players could select from a list of tutorials (probably just written instructions ie no blue bubles etc)

eg
I click Tutorails or Help in the menu.

Brings up a window that looks something like this (when I click link 2 which could be something like "Abilities" or "Using abilities" or "Making the most of you attacks"):


__________________________________________________ ______
list of tuts | Link 2 | Pictures
link 1 | text text text text text text | |
link 2 | text text text text text text | |
link 3 | text text text text text text | |
link 4 | text text text text text text | |
link 5 | text text text text text text | |
link 6 | text text text text text text | v
link 7 | text text text text text text |
link 8 | text text text text text text |
link 9 | text text text text text text |


That way we can direct new plaers to a handy depositary of knowledge with out having the same long winded conversation word for word when ever we go to the starting areas (which isn't often for me)

[Tcei]

The dragon tut does take you through the steps of crafting in good detail.

From the newbies I've been helping recently, most dont understand the concept of atunning. Tho I as I understand this is/will be fix in the patch on Blight. It would be nice if some of these npc's were a bit more obvious however. Even returning players have issues finding them.

Also several of the young hatchlings I've helped recently havent even known about cargo disk, neither did I as a matter of fact untill I asked.

Maybe as part of the tutorial or one of the later crafting quest (This could apply to bi-peds too) could give out a low stack/bulk disk that would be turned in at the end of that quest; along with some text explaining how to equip and what they do, and to check the local connie?

[AmonGwareth]

Maybe as part of the tutorial or one of the later crafting quest (This could apply to bi-peds too) could give out a low stack/bulk disk that would be turned in at the end of that quest; along with some text explaining how to equip and what they do, and to check the local connie?

Well, they do get a couple once they reach Tier2 lands. But yes, we can look into giving them a basic cargo disk on NT.

[Sigi]

T

One problem I can sometimes encounter is having directions or instructions given to me via talking to an NPC, but not the quest log, and after you talk to the NPC the directions/instructions won't be said again. So perhaps a journal could be made to hold all your conversations with NPCs for a quest? Should also allow a player to more easily return to a quest later down the road if they had to stop for any reason.

That would be such a good idea.
Not only for the quest pointers but also because some of the conversations are so funny, entertaining or informative speaking about the lore. I would love to be able to reread them.

[Andaras]

*feels Amon's pain*

I can attest that the tutorials are indeed very much useful and
still working on Spirit Isle and Skalkaar Island. Those who decide
to skip it are making decisions based on an Assumption.
(and we all know where that leads)

Those that choose to ignore/skip the Tutorial are choosing to
self-inflict pain. Part of the learning process of life is to know
when to RTFM. Or for MMOs, to follow the Tutorial.

No matter how much programming effort is made, the Devs
cannot cure certain parts of Human nature. I vote they not
waste their time trying to.

Andaras

[Kesqui]

One problem I can sometimes encounter is having directions or instructions given to me via talking to an NPC, but not the quest log, and after you talk to the NPC the directions/instructions won't be said again. So perhaps a journal could be made to hold all your conversations with NPCs for a quest? Should also allow a player to more easily return to a quest later down the road if they had to stop for any reason.

I'm having exactly this problem with a Tier II quest at the moment - one of the ones that Sergeant Hanlon gives, which I suspect is the beginning of the "Plundered Tombs" quest. I tried delivering the letter to the cleric fellow, but he doesn't want to talk to me; I tried going back to Hanlon to see if he'd give me any hints on where I was supposed to be going, because my quest log didn't seem to indicate that there is a quest at all ....

I've now deleted the letter and the map hoping to restart the quest, but no, that's not working either.

All I want to know is whether I missed a cue in one of the quest conversations, whether I've been stupid by deleting the map and stuff because the quest isn't live yet (and thus I'm better doing the quest with my OTHER dragon who hasn't started it before) or what....

Being able to review the quest conversation would be very, very useful to this veteran player, let alone to newbies who don't know how it's supposed to work.

[Shian]

Wait. I know where you are! I had to support a ticket to figure out where to go next. Try Dennison Jadefellow, he's inside a tiny building in the Academy of Magic in Dalimond.

[velveeta]

Being able to review the quest conversation would be very, very useful to this veteran player, let alone to newbies who don't know how it's supposed to work.

i so ditto this there aren't enough numbers to count that high...

[AmonGwareth]

I'm having exactly this problem with a Tier II quest at the moment - one of the ones that Sergeant Hanlon gives, which I suspect is the beginning of the "Plundered Tombs" quest. I tried delivering the letter to the cleric fellow, but he doesn't want to talk to me; I tried going back to Hanlon to see if he'd give me any hints on where I was supposed to be going, because my quest log didn't seem to indicate that there is a quest at all ....

I've now deleted the letter and the map hoping to restart the quest, but no, that's not working either.

All I want to know is whether I missed a cue in one of the quest conversations, whether I've been stupid by deleting the map and stuff because the quest isn't live yet (and thus I'm better doing the quest with my OTHER dragon who hasn't started it before) or what....

Being able to review the quest conversation would be very, very useful to this veteran player, let alone to newbies who don't know how it's supposed to work.

Happy to assist you further with this. Just open a separate thread or send me a PM or open a support ticket.

As far as being able to review dialog for previous quest steps or for completed quests, unfortunately that is not a possibility at the present time. Would require significant client rework and would dramatically increase the amount of data transfer.