Just sayin..

[Vahrokh]

But heres the thing, it's exactly my point as to why we should be able to become more powerful casters/healers. Why and what reason is there, that a hybrid like me can pour their skill into the melee half of the spectrum, and do so much more, and yet I'm not allowed to pour my skill into the caster spectrum and get equal reward/ability?

Let me paste the answer to this off the same post you are quoting:

"As I posted before, dragons were born as melee based hybrids"

This is why they are biased to melee, balanced in game as melee, the whole dragon game is centered about our being mainly melee.

After 7 years, with a game with such vintage code base performing such a steep steering is just not going to happen overnight nor over-months.
I don't know how many exact steps would this kind of change require but I know this:

Given a single class "total power" = 100, where melee contributes with 70 and caster with 30 (+/- 15 by swapping training points and gear), in order to become a powerful caster and contribute with 70, the melee power part must drop down to 30.

How many Helians are ready to become this?
How common knowledge and lore fitting is for an house sized scaled beast to become as frail as terracotta?

Also as said, our magical ability, we taught to the bipeds, though they were not capable of a tenth of our power, they still did great things.

I was excellently taught a lot of stuff by my first grader teacher. Thanks to this I have learned how to learn and I self learned computer science, English, astronomy, finance...

The lore does not say we teached the detailed single spells to bipeds iirc, they could as well have learned that casting spells was even possible off us and then perfectioned the art by themselves. This would explain why they don't even use primal.

it's my continued belief we should be on par with biped healing at least, when specced for it. When specced for spell damage we should be on par with Lunus melee damage.

I'd love that, I suggested how to make us EARN the right to be like this since 5 or so years ago.
This would happen by enabling us to become "biped grade" in a single activity by training "beyond level 100" XP to the equivalent of more 100 levels and thus enabling a "specialized mastery" button with the "real heal", "real blast" and whatever.
Making us less powerful has always been the "fair solution" the developers adopted for our not needing to multiclass (plus I was here to read the dozens pages rants off non dragons just at mentioning buffing us to multiclass grade powers).

With my idea we'd singlehandedly give dragons the coveted power and still justify it by the more 100/ whatever levels grind.

Too bad I have never convinced a Developer to even comment on this idea.

[fermi443]

- I think its important for the game balance and community that drags need biped healers -

I'm not sure how to make sense of this to myself, and I'm trying to understand. It's been my observation, from videos, screenshots, and first hand experience, that the usual way dragons fight bosses anyways, is just by getting enough melee dragons to throw at it, after a biped buffs them up usually. I hardly see biped reliance as an issue when those buffs, and those crafts we need all the time for the tons of additional game content, require us to do business with them anyways, not to mention trading, crystals, and hoard items. Even if we did have heals, biped healers are ultimately useful anyways for their multiple rez spells.

It's also been my experience, that getting a biped to half of the game bosses where you'd need their heals is so time consuming and impractical, that it's impossible figure how some of us would have enough play time to even consider it. Reklar is an utter pain to even get to on foot, and the rift bosses don't even allow bipeds, it's always been this lazy rule of thumb, "Throw enough melee dragons at it, and it will go down." As much as I love mashing buttons to throw out melee moves, I also love strategy, and team effort, I'd very much love to be able to heal my comrades so we don't need to wait till Tuesdays for the surplus of Order and Chaos to mingle over to Blight and help us.

(Maybe with biped carrying in the future if that happens, but still..)

That being said, it makes no sense to me, that healing is or would be a main game breaker for us to have in the slightest. So many quests require biped assistance. I've found myself on a biweekly waiting list, just for somebody to eventually be able to help me, and it had nothing to do with healing. We even took down Reklar without a biped healer, we just threw 5 melee dragons at it while I casted boons, buffs, and debuffs.

This is why they are biased to melee, balanced in game as melee, the whole dragon game is centered about our being mainly melee.

This is very untrue, and I've been over this a few times, the game lore, the quests, and the original tutorial all elude to this misleading statement, that you have choice to be a caster dragon, or a healer dragon. The whole way it is set up, claims the ability to be able to do these things efficiently if you so choose to have your character be that way. Why even offer scale armor sets, formulas, crystals, to raise skill points then for these attributes which according to what you're saying, shouldn't be there.

"As I posted before, dragons were born as melee based hybrids"

This did not answer my question in the slightest, and only speaks from your personal bias, and the general public's bias, formed from a 'just deal with it' attitude. I think the only reason dragons have a "melee only" title slapped onto them, is the general public idea that everyone has settled on, "Just deal with it, and be melee." mentality. Just because a specific aspect of the game is broken like that, doesn't necessarily conclude that was how it was meant to be. If you're going to design a character to be melee only, do not give them an option to raise skills for spellcasting if they can't choose to be a spellcaster. Do not, tell them in the game lore that doing so is possible in the first place. Do not tell them on the tutorial island to place their stats in spellcasting related skills to better their primal casting.

Not every house sized creature is the incredible hulk... If you train your muscles, you trained your muscles. My character trained his mind, and his focus, instead of lifting weights. He practiced his attunement with primal energies, and forewent toughening his body, and sharpening his claws, his focus was to become a master of the primal arts. LIKE THE GAME SAID HE COULD. Why is he not allowed to be effective statisticly then, is only because the game is lacking the support for that setup, or has just been horribly cruel and misleading to players from the get go.

In that case, it should be fixed. A sign should be erected on the island in the beginning of your journey that says, "Spellcasting stats, and scales are purely a joke."

I was excellently taught a lot of stuff by my first grader teacher. Thanks to this I have learned how to learn and I self learned computer science, English, astronomy, finance...

Why is this important? This has nothing to do with the game lore or my point at all. As I said, if the bipeds are 1/10th our original power, then if I measure correctly that makes us casters 1/40th our original power, being 1/4th as able casters as bipeds. Why does this make sense that we'd be that weak, if many of the Helian kind claim to do amazing things with primal energies, but the players cannot? Like I said, this applies to melee characters as well, dragons are supposed to be ultimately weakened all around, strength and power. They should still be equal however, both just as capable, even if they're weakened.

In no way would it be more difficult at all to change the current spell requirements/values, and re-adding and changing some values for Gold Burst, to be a spellcasting GR equivalent versus what you're suggesting. What you're suggesting would be so much more a burden it would never happen, a whole 100 levels of additional content, just so every melee could be a meelecasterhealer.

I'd rather just choose to be one or the other rather than choosing which buttons I want to push that day. I've more than EARNED being a caster, I made my armor, I found my crystals, I've been through my 100 levels, I did the ARoP, I earned my Helian caster crystal, and I trained my character the stats he needed. This is what I was told to do to be successful and make it work by Lore, by tutorial, and by quests. Why doesn't it work? Not because I'm supposed to be melee, not because I'm a hybrid, but because it's just unbalanced game content that needs to be balanced. If I knew, that paying $15/month was going to get me more game content now, and let me do those next 100 levels, then sure I'd be all for it, but it's not. I'm paying for what I have now, and I'd like to see it balanced as a player who wants enjoy this game as much as you melee types, the way I was told by the game, I could.

[Vahrokh]

This is very untrue, and I've been over this a few times, the game lore, the quests, and the original tutorial all elude to this misleading statement, that you have choice to be a caster dragon, or a healer dragon

Oh, it's not untrue. I just type what the game IS (and why and how it is like that) not what you may read on wishful statements and infomercials.

Why even offer scale armor sets, formulas, crystals, to raise skill points then for these attributes which according to what you're saying, shouldn't be there.

Because the game was half finished when it got released?
Even the game-of-reference-WoW had classes half made (I played feral druid, a class born for cloth that at game release was forced on leather - too bad no leather > first levels was put in game in the beginning, they ran out of time). 2 talent trees out of 3 just did not work at all for almost 2 years.

Difference is Blizzard had the ocean-deep pockets to finish and polish the game (paid) expansion after (paid) expansion, while the myriad of small Istaria owners never got that opportunity.

This did not answer my question in the slightest, and only speaks from your personal bias, and the general public's bias, formed from a 'just deal with it' attitude.

Mine is indeed a "deal with it" attitude, because:

- I know how much developer power can be put behind the game (basically support plus moderate content additions with tangible manpower constraints).

- I know what would happen to alter 7 years of game going in one way: massive rage quitting because others DO feel ok as is.

- I know that people would not be happy to have to face clear cut decisions about their spec. They bought one gameplay they grew accustomed (and geared) to. You want to change that.

If you're going to design a character to be melee only, do not give them an option to raise skills for spellcasting if they can't choose to be a spellcaster. Do not, tell them in the game lore that doing so is possible in the first place. Do not tell them on the tutorial island to place their stats in spellcasting related skills to better their primal casting.

You have NO IDEA of the level of incompetence that permeated this game at its release. It's a miracle it ever booted up and an even bigger miracle dragons classes got hastily half implemented *after* game release, figures if they studied how to precisely fine tune the "specs", the stats or whatever.

You cannot pretend or complain that the game should have been different with such premises, or even consequential in its design.
It took 4 (four) years just to make dragons somewhat worth being played. Figures making them good and aligned with their lore.

Basically, you are complaining things are not made as well as mainstream MMOs (which is fine, the fee is the same after all) but also refuse to listen to those who tell you why and why it cannot happen anytime soon.

I'm paying for what I have now, and I'd like to see it balanced as a player who wants enjoy this game as much as you melee types, the way I was told by the game, I could.

If only I was a melee type. I am not.
I am not a clothie either.

[fermi443]

- I know how much developer power can be put behind the game (basically support plus moderate content additions with tangible manpower constraints).

- I know what would happen to alter 7 years of game going in one way: massive rage quitting because others DO feel ok as is.

- I know that people would not be happy to have to face clear cut decisions about their spec. They bought one gameplay they grew accustomed (and geared) to. You want to change that.

- I never said anything about making anybody play what they don't want to play, nor did I ever say that Helians have to be casters, they're just the likely contenders because of their stat bonuses.

- It's obvious that the developers could do this and more, they're completely revamping an entire loot system, I'm sure they could change a few numbers before calling it a day, they've changed spells very easily in the past, and modified values.

- People would not rage quit because Helian players who want to be effective casters as they imagined their characters, and as the game told them they could create, in fact, it would probably bring those players back to the game.

You have NO IDEA of the level of incompetence that permeated this game at its release. It's a miracle it ever booted up and an even bigger miracle dragons classes got hastily half implemented *after* game release, figures if they studied how to precisely fine tune the "specs", the stats or whatever.

I have plenty of an idea, this is the reason why I'm here, trying to get these ideas pushed through, so we could see some of these problems fixed. Quality is always important when maintaining a player base. It doesn't make a single bit of sense to concern yourself that players are too used to not considering a bugged gameplay aspect, and will quit if it becomes available. Thats just silly to even think about why that would be a reason for quitting.

You cannot pretend or complain that the game should have been different with such premises, or even consequential in its design.

I'm complaining here and now about how it should be fixed, giving valid suggestions and brainstorming with fellow players, I'm not asking anybody to hop in a time machine and go rough the early developers up. I don't care about what happened then, I care about getting some changes done now to improve the game, and I believe that this is one of those improvements that would really put some smiles on the faces of us caster players, and keep us playing the game.

It took 4 (four) years just to make dragons somewhat worth being played. Figures making them good and aligned with their lore.

I'm pretty sure it wont take four years to change some numbers around so things work right, and copy/paste some old code from Primal Burst, rename it, link it, and set it to Primal, and maybe turn the heals up a bit. These are new developers, and they've certainly learned and improved from past mistakes many times over now, why not give them a chance to fix this as well?

Basically, you are complaining things are not made as well as mainstream MMOs (which is fine, the fee is the same after all) but also refuse to listen to those who tell you why and why it cannot happen anytime soon.

I think it is you who refuses to listen to what I have to say, and it's clear in this right here and now, that my suggestions have NOTHING to do with mainstream MMOs, I referenced concepts from other MMOs but I never said anything about copying them, or making them as well. Yes I pay 15$/month, thats a hell of a ton of cash to be paying to play this game you agree is so neglected, and to ask for a much smaller change than you're making it out to be, shouldn't be such a big deal.

My whole point set and argument, is on the balance of Primal casters who want to be able to play their characters, and you come in with your argument about forcing players to play as casters, or making a choice. I'm pretty sure it doesn't bother a single person to decide whether or not they want their character to throw lightning bolts, or punch their targets in the face. On top of that, like I said, they have a choice.. nobody is forcing a lunus to be melee, nobody is forcing a Helian to be a caster, you could be either faction with our suggestions, and it wouldn't matter so long as you choose what you enjoy.

If only I was a melee type. I am not.
I am not a clothie either.

I don't understand your issue with the association of wearing cloth garments and spellcasting. A stereotype problem you have with the gifted masters of the arcane is a silly reason for not liking the idea of caster moves actually working for casters. But I digress..

How would anyone get aggravated, being able to push the spell buttons, and finally get something positive and equal out of them instead of garbage? None of my, nor Meepsa's suggestions would effect melee characters at all. Even Helian melee characters can go on doing what they like to do. Read and consider what I have to say, what was suggested would not effect any of the longstanding play styles of current Dragon characters, but instead open up a venue for those of us who wanted the ability.

Please don't tell me what I don't consider. I try to be very fair, I quote other users to point out the center of the topic, things that I've read through and considered, and things I'm about to voice my opinions and argument.

Do not feel insulted if I choose to quote things you have to say. I take the time and the effort into seeing how everyone's ideas fit in, and even though it may be upsetting, I still come out with the truth to the best of my ability.

[Vahrokh]

- I never said anything about making anybody play what they don't want to play, nor did I ever say that Helians have to be casters, they're just the likely contenders because of their stat bonuses.

- It's obvious that the developers could do this and more, they're completely revamping an entire loot system, I'm sure they could change a few numbers before calling it a day, they've changed spells very easily in the past, and modified values.

Ok let me be clearer so you see why this is not doable in any game except pre-2008 WoW.

This game has no specialization trees within a single class, just a post-release mild stat points allocation.
When you want to "respec" with real effect, real unlocked and viable abilities etc you must multiclass.

Dragons cannot multiclass, they are pure hybrids of a pure class in a game without real "heavy weight" specs.
Therefore you can only add flavour within a single class, not change it a completely. To do this you need heavy weight "talents" and similar, and this would be a monumental (and game breaking) task that Vi will NOT be able to do.

You wish a concept akin old WoW Druid pure multiclass.
Before the game design was handled to a mind too weak to continue the industry breaking original Blizzard design (but hey, he knew how to bring in the big bucks!), there were :

- the traditional classes: pure classes (best in a task, zero in anything else).
- the traditional hybrids: jacks of all the trades masters of none, with some bias: paladins were melee biased, shamans totems and elemental magic biased.
- the unique design no one EVER did before or after: jacks of all the trades masters of one: druids. These were totally unique. Their game powers balance, their limit was neither the ability to do only one task nor having diluted and milder capabilities. Their limit was in their being only able to perform one role at a time, symbolized by the currently chosen animal or caster form.
Therefore, unlike another hybrid who would only be viable for milder tasks, a druid could be a raid quality main tank or healer or caster and even melee damage dealer (weakish due to role conflict with rogues). He could only be a tank OR melee damage OR healer etc. at any given time, he could not "do it all together" like hybrids do.

Now, Istaria does not have druids but - like in WoW - melee biased hybrids that can do everything anytime but worse than pure classes.
Hoard affecting armor and breath and being spent in abilities is a designed penalty for hoard skills to be "overpowered" like they are.
When we did not have hoard costs we did not have hoard moves at all and we sucked donkey balls.

With this blurb said, you want anybody play as they want, but you also:

- want a powerful "spec" in a game with no powerful specs.
- want powerful class in a race that has no penalty of requiring multiclassing to become powerful.
- want a powerful caster which, for a single class (expecially hybrid) it DEMANDS to become gimped at melee and endurance to stay balanced yet "never said anything about making anybody play what they don't want to play".

Now, I hate to say this (because I'd LOVE to have it), but we can't have everything.
Since we start from a melee bias, if you want a powerful caster you must have game mechanics (talents, gear) that totally gimp melee and armor down to pure mage levels.
This is where I say that we can't have such game changes (to ie support talents) so late in this game and we can't demand current players to have to choose between melee and caster, because even if you want it all, to keep the game balanced we MUST give up on one aspect to have a strong other aspect.
How do you "pick" this zero compromise caster path that gimps melee? Not by faction, because Helians are not forced to be casters, so you have to introduce a sort of talents and you want them handed to you. Unlikely.

Hey I could be wrong, but then Vi did not even accept to give us better single skills paying them 120 levels worth of XP each...

- People would not rage quit because Helian players who want to be effective casters as they imagined their characters, and as the game told them they could create, in fact, it would probably bring those players back to the game

People would not rage quit if they could be effective casters BUT to be effective casters they would have to give up healing or melee (both attacks and armor), completely.
How many would be ok with this?

It doesn't make a single bit of sense to concern yourself that players are too used to not considering a bugged gameplay aspect, and will quit if it becomes available. Thats just silly to even think about why that would be a reason for quitting.

What I posted meant exactly what you don't seem to see.
Players are not loving the bugged aspects at all, in fact the numbers talk by themselves.
The survivors just know not to put great expectations, the game is still surviving, against any rational financial, technological or marketing logic. Vi are making as much as they can despite it's not a lot by consumer standards and the players understand that.
Now, this does not mean what Vi does finds all OK, far from it (IE I believe making the client open source would attract willing manpower).
It's just that we understand we have a city car engine tractoring an holed hull cruise ship. The ship somehow stays afloat, the engine overdriving, the crew well busy keeping the whole lot somehow stitched together.
And you come in, urgently asking why the 5th floor orchestra today is missing a trombone? Sure, the orchestra sucks hard nuts, and what can they do?

They can do little and don't have the finance, the willpower, the personnel to reverse the situation.

I don't care about what happened then, I care about getting some changes done now to improve the game, and I believe that this is one of those improvements that would really put some smiles on the faces of us caster players, and keep us playing the game.
...

I'm pretty sure it wont take four years to change some numbers around so things work right, and copy/paste some old code from Primal Burst, rename it, link it, and set it to Primal, and maybe turn the heals up a bit. These are new developers,

I'm pretty sure you'd get a nice bipeds uproar and "I am going to quit with my 122 subscriptions" e-rage for a straight buff done on a single class that is seen as borderline overpowered already.

I don't understand your issue with the association of wearing cloth garments and spellcasting.

Mine was a response to this provocation:

... I'd like to see it balanced as a player who wants enjoy this game as much as you melee types...

Where you basically create a divide between the self interested "you melee types" dissing your suggestions and "the casters".

My answer was just: "sorry you are trying to point fingers to somoene who is not even a melee type to begin with".

You take it like it's people having some sort of agenda against "the casters" and proceed with some sort of "Helian Pride".

It's not. It's just people who would indeed WANT the same things you do but have seen the wars of old on Tazoon.com and then here for too many years, wars where minimal improvements would cause player disasters of epic proportions.

Buffing our class with no nasty other nerf (which cannot be but all class and gameplay encompassing due to game limits) is akin to opening a Pandora's Box and Istaria cannot survive more of the ancient scisms that led to whole categories of players quitting.

[fermi443]

This game has no specialization trees within a single class, just a post-release mild stat points allocation.
When you want to "respec" with real effect, real unlocked and viable abilities etc you must multiclass.

There are more ways to make the current abilities work in such a way that they require you're specced and set as a caster regardless of faction, I'll list a few I can think of off the top of my head as ideas.

1) Use an aspect 'buff' effect "Primal Tuning" lets say.
2) Skill requirements in the game already limit the use of even already scribed abilities.
3) Raise the damage/heals, add these hoard requirements you speak of, it's a common value in the game, can it not be subtracted from by say a scribed spell programmed to subtract from it?
4)Adjusting calculations for primal spells to be more dependent on primal and calculate higher damage outputs for higher primal skill invested, should be as easy as changing some numbers around.
5)Linked equivalents let you choose one or the other that works for you.
6)Just raise the requirements/damage point range/heal point range? Primal dictates likelihood of a high roll. Why not make some extremes and let rolls balance?

Why is it so bad the idea of adjusting your character's wavelength for your play style. It's just like multiclassing a character without the menus and the official "I am a <this guy>" tag, and the additional game content. All you'd need to do is put your stats towards what style you wanted to play rather than picking and choosing and being 'locked in'.

Why would subject biped user with 120+ subscriptions be concerned about dragons having a different kind of way to do the damage they can do anyways, a for the most part more vulnerable one, one that they could still do better at anyways as you say?

And you come in, urgently asking why the 5th floor orchestra today is missing a trombone? Sure, the orchestra sucks hard nuts, and what can they do?

It's more like I'm complaining about the trombone having been assembled a little incorrectly, and a little adjustment be made, I.E. the slider fixated in the correct orientation, improving everyone's morale on the doomed vessel with little fixes that do good things, if they don't fair so well, then we'll try something else to make it better. I know for certain that not trying at all and dealing with it will not improve the ship at all. If the crew has a little extra time on their hands to fix that trombone, then so they do and thats one thing towards the better of the ship as a whole unit. Ships and bands aside... :P

I know it's difficult to suggest new ideas, as change is a scary thing that could go either way, if not looked over carefully, but if you know you're doomed from the start, why not try something that might work? If it doesn't, remove it and try something else.

You take it like it's people having some sort of agenda against "the casters" and proceed with some sort of "Helian Pride".

This is not so, and I don't see how the intended message had this much more meaning, and I did not mean it to convey it in such a way if it is taken that way per chance. My best game friends are helping me with ideas for this, and they're melee dragons. I have no real belief that melee dragons are bias against the ideas put foreward, and I never directly said so or intended anything to be taken as an indirect indication of that. Again.. I mention Helians in specific with these ideas, because of the stat bonuses Helian path followers aquire vise versa with the melee focused bonuses Lunus aquire.
And yes, Melee characters are much more capable of enjoying the game with working moves, I'm pretty sure they aren't not enjoying the game, with their aspects working, and I'd like to have my aspects working too as I said, I'd like to enjoy the game in such a manner as well. I never said anything like. "It's their fault I can't do this, or they're enjoying the game because I can't."

I take this like it's an idea put foreward for a change/fix to open up the venue I speak of, something I believe could be easy enough to be done, and tried. Nothing will ever improve with a "cannot do" uninspired attitude.

[Vahrokh]

I know it's difficult to suggest new ideas, as change is a scary thing that could go either way, if not looked over carefully, but if you know you're doomed from the start, why not try something that might work? If it doesn't, remove it and try something else.

Because each time this was done in the past, a fraction of playerbase quit on that.
We don't have a lot of playerbase left to impose experiments on.

1) Use an aspect 'buff' effect "Primal Tuning" lets say

This is by far the most technically feasible feature IF switching aspect was on a timer.
This would turn our hybrid class into a modal hybrid class like druids in WoW though (i.e. an important class role change), I am not sure Amon would accept this, he's quite strict on his view of the game.
In our case it's harder than balancing in WoW, druids over there had heavy mana penalty for switching mode plus heavy frailty, delays and whatsnot.

2) Skill requirements in the game already limit the use of even already scribed abilities.

This does not work, too long to explain why. Would not negatively affect us enough and has sideways to circumvent the effects.

3) Raise the damage/heals, add these hoard requirements you speak of, it's a common value in the game, can it not be subtracted from by say a scribed spell programmed to subtract from it?

Used to be fair when hoard was rare. I am actually surprised Vi has not heavily nerfed hoard drop rates yet, GR should not be free with no second thought, it was the very reason why a "supermove" was accepted in the game to begin with.

4)Adjusting calculations for primal spells to be more dependent on primal and calculate higher damage outputs for higher primal skill invested, should be as easy as changing some numbers around

I'd love this since it'd buff exactly my game style multiple fold, so it won't happen because if it did, some combos like mine would become farming god mode.

5)Linked equivalents let you choose one or the other that works for you.

You still get to have the cake and eat it, it'd work if GR and the spell were on 15 mins timers. They aren't, therefore your 1) is much fairer.

6)Just raise the requirements/damage point range/heal point range? Primal dictates likelihood of a high roll. Why not make some extremes and let rolls balance?

Same as 4). You seem to understimate how little power we lose with these choices vs how much we'd gain.

Would be quite popular of a choice among us dragons but bipeds who have to multiclass and regear would be less OK.

Why would subject biped user with 120+ subscriptions be concerned about dragons having a different kind of way to do the damage they can do anyways,

They have to spend hugetons of time and money to be able to be so good. They have to regear at every new class. They have to spend tons in trophies. They have to go find trainers at every change. Unlike us, they don't have quests to help them level up the umpteenth class.
Before they become uberpeds (say below 4 classes) their levelling up is a pain for certain frail / narrow versatility classes. Yes I am thinking about mage and warrior.

I take this like it's an idea put foreward for a change/fix to open up the venue I speak of, something I believe could be easy enough to be done, and tried. Nothing will ever improve with a "cannot do" uninspired attitude

I think your idea #1 could be implemented (don't mistake me, I'd love to try more aspects of being a dragon, I have never had a change since the game existed.
But you can sort of smell when something is not exactly considered to do, otherwise Amon would have said something already (yes this is a bait ).

[LOVWYRM]

I read this all, I thought about it.
I understand in a way what Helians mean/want.
BUT
we are talking about DRAGONS here.
BIG STRONG CREATURES.
Ment to be tanks.

I mean- dragons ARE hybride.
How would are PURE HELIAN look like?:
Degenerated claws? Sore throat from the breathes?
Oversized heads from too much primal magic?
Short tail- never used it for fighting? Toothless?
Always carrying a first aid kit with them?

My understanding is, that drags make a decision when they are growing up:
What to specialize in the future:
Learn more about magic or more about melee.
But train both of it.
In mens sana in corpore sano!!

As I mentioned it before: I`m a hybride, my melee is more than satisfying,
my breaths seldom miss and make serious damage even on the biggest mobs (SoG/Queen) and my triple teched spells/Volcano/DW make big damage even in the doom. I wear armor scales and have 0 tp on health.
My special scales sets make it possible to face every mob and hit where it hurts^^.
Give Helians an eqivalent to gold rage and thats it.
All other is: How to train your dragon

edit: the bolts should be more powerful for Helian drags. Maybe a special "Helian tech" for that.

[fermi443]

@LOLWYRM

Primal aura of power when focused likely.
Pale scales, shimmering comes from a diet heavy in hoard which they'd lack.
Likely leaner, and not so hulkish, experienced look about their eyes, and not very practiced breath attacks, they wouldn't be as concentrated and as blasting as practiced melee dragons.

@Varokh

I posed these ideas privately, and Amon did foreward them to the team, so you never know. It might happen.

[Solan]

I think just turning casters into another pure, one-target DPS class is sort of pointless. What would be the point of choosing between either besides being a cosmetic overlay? We can already basically ‘change class’ mid-battle by simply swapping scales and buff. Besides, melee dragons may be able to deal 5k total damage on a single foe with GR, but my caster hatchling typically breaks through the 10k wall by simply casting Blast V on a stack of golems. The only real problem here is that caster dragons don’t bring anything to an organized party, because, let’s face it, the only time an organized group is required is during epics (everything else can pretty much be soloed with proper gear and strategy).

I remember Helians always tooting on about leadership and setting the example (was this changed during the T1 revamp?). So why not make them a ‘group friendly’ class by giving them utility and party skills? Instead of more damage, what if Dralkur’s Wrath could deal a 10 second stun and some other debuff. And why must every epic ability involve massively nuking or shredding the opposition (I know it’s cool an’ all but...)? Why not things like:


Primal Aegis (req 1300 Primal)
Cool down: 10 min
Area: 30
Effect:
Attacks only incoming damage 50%.
Removed after 10 uses.

Primal Refraction (req. 1250 Primal)
Cool down: 5 min
Area: 30
Effect:
Magic Evasion +2500
Removed after 1 use.

Fair Winds (req. 1400 Primal)
Cool down: 15 min
Area: 30
Effect:
Refreshing Breeze effect on all allies (for 1 minute)
Speed & Velocity + 10
Attack Recycles -5%


I’m sure someone with more experience could think of better things than these lousy examples, but what I’m saying is instead of turning casters into a duplicate of melees... just give them a Purpose in groups or leave them be. There are so many other things out there besides more damage or more healing, and I’m sure we can think of something that wouldn’t render another class obsolete (but then again, a lot of biped classes seem to suffer from this problem too, and it’s sort of impossible to make everything balanced in all contexts. So Vi should focus on things that benefits the whole population first). If all I cared for was raw damage then I would be playing a lunus melee, and if all I cared for was being uber then I’d be a ‘ped.

Also, that image makes me wonder, you have 1000 base Focus and 1040 current? Where’s your Promote Intellect V? Meepsa on the other hand seems fully buffed (matter fact, she has more focus than you, which is probably why she is healing more than you). Are your spells teched with accuracy and do you use your Grazing/Unrelenting Winds debuffs? Because at 950 focus (fully buffed) I have no issues hitting most T5/T6 mobs as long as it isn’t a myloc.

And why do people take NPC dialogue as an absolute truth that can’t possibly be wrong. From what I can conclude, some (many?) NPC (and possibly players too?) dragons simply suffer from a bad case of megalomania... Probably caused by sitting there for a century or three. If all characters were sane it would be rather dull, no?

[Kesqui]

This game has no specialization trees within a single class, just a post-release mild stat points allocation.

I think the point of the caster-specialists is that Helian and Lunus *should* be separate "classes" or SPECIALISATIONS of the adventure class... and that it should be equally viable to specialise in your faction's methods.

I could play as a Lunus and NEVER use a non-melee attack (and in fact when Kesqui casts Drain Bolt I feel a little as though I'm cheating my faction).
But I don't think it's viable to play as a Helian who never uses physical attacks. My little Helian Sodalite is heavy on Evasion - he's going to have to rely on not getting hit while he nickel-and-dimes things to death.

But then, I'm firmly on the "pony list" side here - I think that, as dragons are the "flagship race" and the only "nobody else does it" that Istaria's got, they should have all the bells and whistles (flight, multiple classes of adventure AND crafting - and TBH, so what if that makes dragons "the" race to play? Surely that was the point of having player dragons!) and be able to be unique in terms of specialisation as well as in paint job. Dragon healers, dragon warriors, dragon mages... heck, where's Wintheria got to for me to train in Ice Strike?

[Vahrokh]

I think the point of the caster-specialists is that Helian and Lunus *should* be separate "classes" or SPECIALISATIONS of the adventure class... and that it should be equally viable to specialise in your faction's methods

Never been like this and it should not.

Lunus and Helian have always been different takes, different factions about how to deal with bipeds.
I.e. I am 100000% Lunus but I use debuffs and AoE 95% of the time. I can melee a single pull to death well enough or I can pull a whole spawn of mithril boulder golems and blast them to death.
That makes me dragon, makes me Lunus, makes me melee and makes me caster.
I'd love to AoE kill them faster but my setup is sweet and versatile because I don't have to SPECIALISE, don't have to reroll, don't have to do anything but have fun.

In the other MMOs, playing an hybrid was always about sucking all round, always missing *that* nice thing, always being *almost there* but always 1 step inferior.

In Istaria I can adapt for real and bring Lunus devastation... with spells. Or GR spam till stuff dies.

Why would I want to become a melee one trick pony with an hybrid class, because of my take about humanity?

If I see a biped I want to be grumpy like a Lunus, if I see a nice AoE spawn I want to be a Lunus AoEing them to death. If I see a miniboss I want to be a Lunus spamming GR and gold shield. If I see a dead friend I want to be a Lunus ressing him.

[fermi443]

Primal Aegis (req 1300 Primal)
Cool down: 10 min
Area: 30
Effect:
Attacks only incoming damage 50%.
Removed after 10 uses.

Primal Refraction (req. 1250 Primal)
Cool down: 5 min
Area: 30
Effect:
Magic Evasion +2500
Removed after 1 use.

Fair Winds (req. 1400 Primal)
Cool down: 15 min
Area: 30
Effect:
Refreshing Breeze effect on all allies (for 1 minute)
Speed & Velocity + 10
Attack Recycles -5%

These are great ideas, and I agree that building on the AoE aspect, changing the DW output to having a useful effect rather than the meager wimpy damage it does is a good idea as well, definately on the list of possibilities. AoE Spell heavy spell dodge chance would be amazing for strategies... popping it to counter epic AoEs in a party.

[Kesqui]

Never been like this and it should not.

Lunus and Helian have always been different takes, different factions about how to deal with bipeds.

Fair enough; you do have a point there. However, *my* point is that there should be multiple dragon classes instead of "It is only really efficient to be a melee-specialised dragon with just enough points in Primal to make AOE spells effective."

Lunus Battlemage with special class-specific offensive spells.
Lunus Cleric with class-specific healing spells or theft-of-life spells.
Lunus Warrior with class-specific special melee attacks.
Lunus Adventurer that works exactly as it does now.

Helian Healer with class-specific healing spells or theft-of-life spells.
Helian Primalist with class-specific offensive spells.
Helian Warrior with class-specific melee attacks.
Helian Adventurer that works exactly as it does now.

I don't want to have to be 100/100/100 DONE.
I would like the chance to try specialising further - to be REALLY REALLY good at something adventurewise (other than "really really good at Gold Rage"). I want choice - more choice than there currently is - without taking away other people's choices.

Oh, and a Dragon Crystalshaping school; I'm tired of azulyte processing not giving me any XP for ANYTHING.

[Vahrokh]

Fair enough; you do have a point there. However, *my* point is that there should be multiple dragon classes instead of "It is only really efficient to be a melee-specialised dragon with just enough points in Primal to make AOE spells effective."

That's a whole other matter.

I'd also loved to be able to become better at something specific.

Here's where I differ though: my expectations are realistic imho.
It's fully possible to add an ability to be enabled after a certain amount of XP without breaking bones at the client code.
Implementing dragon multiclassing would surely affect those who don't want it but most of all it'd require to open a coding can of worms no current Vi dev can afford to do.

[Kesqui]

Here's where I differ though: my expectations are realistic imho.

Well, seeing as I've said I'm firmly on the "pony list" side (and I do actually believe that implementing some of the pony list might bring in more players, which is what the game needs) AND that this is the "rants" forum, not the "suggestions" forum .... I think I'm happy to throw "realistic expectations" out the window and say what I really believe.

Implementing dragon multiclassing would surely affect those who don't want it

Why, if "Dragon Adventurer (faction)" is left exactly as it is for those who want that, but that there are "prestige schools" tacked on on top? A biped Cleric doesn't HAVE to become a Healer, but they can if they want to. That's what I'm suggesting - that if people with dragon characters WANT to specialise, that specialisation should be possible.

[Dragonboy]

Oh, and a Dragon Crystalshaping school; I'm tired of azulyte processing not giving me any XP for ANYTHING.

What is easier to level a school with? 2 or 3 component lairshaping items OR crystals. Many people tend to go the biped way… find the easiest way to level a school to 100 on their way to Grand Master Crafter. What is the point of having a Lairshaping school if everyone levels it with Crystalshaping.

I have said before and I will say again that it is strange that Crystalshaping skill is not part of the general Dragon Crafter school.
Bricks, Bars, Gems, (Tainted) Orbs, (Spell) Shards, Scales.. Hell even Lodestones and Caststones give Crafter XP if I recall reading (never noticed since been lvl 100 for many years).

If I understand correctly it is only part of the Lairshaping school because it is a newly created skill which happens to be created at the same time as the whole Lairshaping thing and only used for lairshaping at this moment and a couple of quests which had nothing to do with lairshaping. One quest comes to mind namely Attunement to Draak before it was part of RoP because I did it at lvl 30/40/35’ish on my alt who is still hatchling. I was forced to have 300 skill crystalshaping with a school that normally a hatchling will not take until they have enough cash for a lair.

As for the whole Pure Caster thing. I like being a Hybrid. That is the way I am and that is the way dragons in my fantasies are supposed to be. Every time I picture a Dragon Caster I now see the description that LOVWYRM gave of a pure caster and I laugh my behind off..

Specialization sounds cool to have, but I doubt that it will be implemented in the near future, unless someone donates a considerable amount of money so that the devs can increase their staff size for a considerable amount of time.

Dragon Battlemage with special class-specific offensive spells.
Dragon Cleric with class-specific healing spells or theft-of-life spells.
Dragon Healer with class-specific healing spells or theft-of-life spells.
Dragon Primalist with class-specific offensive spells.
Dragon Warrior with class-specific melee attacks.
Dragon Adventurer that works exactly as it does now.

My intake for the whole Helian, Lunus thing is that it should be altered completely in a way that choosing a faction does not force you down a path of Caster or Melee. The faction choosing should be neutral, giving a bonus to BOTH areas… Both TnC and Primal.
Further more ALL dragon abilities should be both Primal and TnC orientated except for Gold Rage, so that Casters at least have normal functioning and mainly damaging abilities when they get jumped by large amount of mobs.
When this is all done… Only then will the above quote about specializations be logical to implement.

*Puts on his elemental scale set and awaits what is to come *

[Kesqui]

What is easier to level a school with? 2 or 3 component lairshaping items OR crystals. Many people tend to go the biped way… find the easiest way to level a school to 100 on their way to Grand Master Crafter. What is the point of having a Lairshaping school if everyone levels it with Crystalshaping.

Ahh, that's not exactly what I mean.... what I mean is a "Crystalshaping" school that uses gems and azulyte (and probably technique components) to make CRYSTALS. So that yes, creating focused Azulyte CAN count towards a school - the Crystalshaping school - for making the crystals that at the moment you can only really loot.

[Dragonboy]

Ahh, that's not exactly what I mean.... what I mean is a "Crystalshaping" school that uses gems and azulyte (and probably technique components) to make CRYSTALS. So that yes, creating focused Azulyte CAN count towards a school - the Crystalshaping school - for making the crystals that at the moment you can only really loot.

I understood what you meant, but I was explaining why no experience was given when you craft them at this particular time. While creating our own crystals will be cool to do, but I doubt it will happen any time soon.

[Vahrokh]

I do actually believe that implementing some of the pony list might bring in more players, which is what the game needs

Of course it would, but a game has to be above a "critical mass" in order to have capital and workers to implement those features.
Sadly Istaria is below that point.

Why, if "Dragon Adventurer (faction)" is left exactly as it is for those who want that, but that there are "prestige schools" tacked on on top? A biped Cleric doesn't HAVE to become a Healer, but they can if they want to. That's what I'm suggesting - that if people with dragon characters WANT to specialise, that specialisation should be possible

Having played a lot of MMOs I can safely say it's a good idea but just on paper.

There's the big issue of being able to "respec", since specs are never of identical worth.
In every MMO players are pushed to spec only for the "min max" or "FOTM" spec (in some games they won't be accepted in groups or even in guilds if they don't).

In fact, this would become exactly like today: a stronger / functioning "spec" (melee) is suffucating the other.

So the game would have to implement true multiclassing (and add mastery skills blah blah) with lots of work or it would have to implement a way to drop the spec and switch to another aka other work to do.

Finally, those choosing to stay "natural hybrid" IE like now, would remain jacks of all the trades and master of none.
They would be forced to spec into best melee or best <place here the spec that today is demanded>.