Loot Revamp and The Plan

[Chasing]

Something I thought of this morning, but didnt have chance to post.

Not clear yet whether it would help the economy of hinder it - pro's and con's would need debating.

At present all tech comps are sourced via hunting. However a pure crafter (or someone who rarely hunts) may struggle to purchase what they need tech comp wise.

How about adding certain tech comps to the bonus items from gathering resources?

For example if you are gathering copper and tin ore, you have a chance of a bonus bronze golem fragment or a rarer chance for a bronze boulder golem fragment (after all bronze golems are just an animated lump of the same metal).

Now the balance of the % chance of getting these bonus tech comps needs to be in line so that you would be able to get the same tech comps via hunting instead of gathering.

There will probably be a limit to how many tech comps could be acquired from resources (IE wouldnt expect to get something from a scorpion from any resources, but maybe a spider part from cloth).

However, what this does is gives the more craft orientated players a few things

• A tech comp they might be able to use
• A tech comp they could sell/exchange or pawn for coin (not via nadia)
• Doesn't upset the looted items balance (as far as I can see, providing the bonus % is in line with the loot drop %)
• Not 100% reliance on adventurers for tech comps (if they are prepared to trade)

This doesnt take into account the impacts of guilds, social groups etc so there could be more I haven't considered.

Also I know the functionality is there. Remember when we used to get blighted ornaments as bonuses from gathering resources. I personally think that was quite effective.

[joemarra052075]

Something I thought of this morning, but didnt have chance to post.

Not clear yet whether it would help the economy of hinder it - pro's and con's would need debating.

At present all tech comps are sourced via hunting. However a pure crafter (or someone who rarely hunts) may struggle to purchase what they need tech comp wise.

How about adding certain tech comps to the bonus items from gathering resources?

For example if you are gathering copper and tin ore, you have a chance of a bonus bronze golem fragment or a rarer chance for a bronze boulder golem fragment (after all bronze golems are just an animated lump of the same metal).

Now the balance of the % chance of getting these bonus tech comps needs to be in line so that you would be able to get the same tech comps via hunting instead of gathering.

There will probably be a limit to how many tech comps could be acquired from resources (IE wouldnt expect to get something from a scorpion from any resources, but maybe a spider part from cloth).

However, what this does is gives the more craft orientated players a few things

• A tech comp they might be able to use
• A tech comp they could sell/exchange or pawn for coin (not via nadia)
• Doesn't upset the looted items balance (as far as I can see, providing the bonus % is in line with the loot drop %)
• Not 100% reliance on adventurers for tech comps (if they are prepared to trade)

This doesnt take into account the impacts of guilds, social groups etc so there could be more I haven't considered.

Also I know the functionality is there. Remember when we used to get blighted ornaments as bonuses from gathering resources. I personally think that was quite effective.

I like this idea..while I do adventure I primarly craft at the time and would find appropriate tech comps much nicer than the current bonuses. 10 of what you are currently gathering is fine. But when I am gathering T1 a bonus of T2 often gets deleted as I am in need of the space (and when you are doing construction space is at a preimum. I would be far more inclined to keep tech comps to sell or use...and at worst I would hoard them....a better fate than the delete button that is so often used for *you harvest a bonus of 5 silver ore* "grumble, grumble"*delete*

[walkerglassmire]

I fall into the strongly for Formulatron/Techtron camp, both having felt the enrageing agervation of trying to find 1 form for litterally months, asking everyone I know every day, spamming market every day, checking the connies every day and hunting all night, ALL to no avail; as well as not having a TON of time to spend farming monsters, and quite frankly not wanting to. (Am in the middle of this right now hunting 1 crystal that noone I know has, and is in the annoying middle tiers that noone sells, but that's for a different conversation).

I think the token pricing needs to be reasonable, but not too small. This will allow for two things to happen: Hunters that like to hunt and sell their forms and techs that they don't need can undercut the price of the formulatron; at the same time, allow players, even new ones that don't have a lot of coin, to get that 1 last form they need that noone seems to be selling. Guaran's numbers seem a bit steep for the Jman and Expert, but, I've NEVER been flush with coin (been round for over 6 years now) and my eyes pop out every time I go to buy another Jman form for my new biped. I'm not even sure I want to look at the prices for the Expert forms.

I think an important point that is being missed in this argument is that noone is FORCING anyone to use the Formulatron. For all the "pure" hunter-crafters out there, if you want to spend months on end hunting for all your own forms for your sense of accomplishment, or whatever, noone is stopping you. All the robots are doing is giving other folk the option of doing it differently.

As an asside, though linked, a really good suggestion I saw in a different thread would be to add a Form/Tech connie that has a MUCH greater listing time (Unlimited maybe) that does not count against your max listings or cost to list. Could even put this connie next to/near the Formtrons, so that the hunters can directly compete against the trons prices. This would encourage people to actually list forms again, as 99% of them end up back in the vault all the time, making a mess of things. I once listed some good forms for 3 months, and not a one ever sold.

Enough rambling for now. Happy hunting.

[Chasing]

I think an important point that is being missed in this argument is that noone is FORCING anyone to use the Formulatron. For all the "pure" hunter-crafters out there, if you want to spend months on end hunting for all your own forms for your sense of accomplishment, or whatever, noone is stopping you. All the robots are doing is giving other folk the option of doing it differently.

Think you mean the prices I suggested. I just picked them out of the air thinking about prices of formulas on vendors. More to illustrate a point really.

As was said to me the other day on Chaos, the majority of people will use the 'easiest option' so if you set the formulatrons too low a price, it creates a situation where timesink wise its easier to sit in front of a formulatron and run a macro (ingame one :P) than hunt.

Thats why the balance is so important. Has to be expensive enough to stop people sitting there and spamming it, otherwise everyone will stop hunting (unless they are 'diehards'), and just use the machines.

[Riaken]

How about adding certain tech comps to the bonus items from gathering resources?

I once got a diamond golem chip comp while mining diamonds. Don't that will be hard to put in game.

[walkerglassmire]

Think you mean the prices I suggested. I just picked them out of the air thinking about prices of formulas on vendors. More to illustrate a point really.

As was said to me the other day on Chaos, the majority of people will use the 'easiest option' so if you set the formulatrons too low a price, it creates a situation where timesink wise its easier to sit in front of a formulatron and run a macro (ingame one :P) than hunt.

Thats why the balance is so important. Has to be expensive enough to stop people sitting there and spamming it, otherwise everyone will stop hunting (unless they are 'diehards'), and just use the machines.

<nods> It is going to he a VERY delicate balance for this. I just was advocating against setting them WAY high for newer players that don't have a lot of coin, even with the new junk drops.

Course, even if all you want to do is spam the Tron, you still have to get the coin in the first place, making it an excellent coin sink, no matter the price.

[Venge]

Think you mean the prices I suggested. I just picked them out of the air thinking about prices of formulas on vendors. More to illustrate a point really.

As was said to me the other day on Chaos, the majority of people will use the 'easiest option' so if you set the formulatrons too low a price, it creates a situation where timesink wise its easier to sit in front of a formulatron and run a macro (ingame one :P) than hunt.

Thats why the balance is so important. Has to be expensive enough to stop people sitting there and spamming it, otherwise everyone will stop hunting (unless they are 'diehards'), and just use the machines.

Till you run out of coin anyway, and for many/most? players that could happen quickly. And of course the best way to get more coin is... hunting.

Venge

[Raeshlavik]

I wonder if it would be possible to have the dropped formula be a bit better than the machine bought version. This would make it easy to get into the tier by just ambling up to the machine, but still reward those who go out and work their tail off to get the actual drop.

Something like having the dropped version require slightly less resources or grant a couple more points of whatever... We all know the lengths players will go to to get 2 more points of a favorable stat.

[Frith-Rae]

I think an important point that is being missed in this argument is that noone is FORCING anyone to use the Formulatron. For all the "pure" hunter-crafters out there, if you want to spend months on end hunting for all your own forms for your sense of accomplishment, or whatever, noone is stopping you. All the robots are doing is giving other folk the option of doing it differently.

Right - and I think people are forgetting that this is still an RNG situation - just like a slot machine. Not a "insert token get form you want."

Its just not the double RNG situation that getting the form to drop from a mob is right now.

But its still RNG - it could STILL take you weeks or months to get the one you want if you have bad luck (like me, and apparenlty Shinkuu! RNG hates me in all forms, across all genres and RL too lol).

And yes, as others have pointed out - in order to play the slot machine you gotta have the cash - which you get by selling things or going hunting, anyway.

I personaly have never even used the slot-trons that were already in game. But I can tell ya if I had the money I'd be hunting the form-mobs and playing the slot machine equally just to up my chances.

Cuz RNG hates me...lol.

[Solan]

How about instead of simply buying tokens, make some tech trader that can give any one tech, but at the price of a dozen or so techs of the same tier? Getting a specific tech may take a while, but getting ANY 10~20 drop-only techs should be fairly consistent. You still need to hunt them or buy them off the consigner (it would even give all those low-demand techs some base value/use), but at the end of the day, you’re much more certain to get that ONE missing/needed tech. Something similar could be devised for forms too, I'm sure.

[Chasing]

Till you run out of coin anyway, and for many/most? players that could happen quickly. And of course the best way to get more coin is... hunting.

Venge

Going to play devils advocate

Maybe, maybe not. Only the devs really know the full extent of coin holding across Chaos and Order. That would have to be taken into account.

[Chasing]

I wonder if it would be possible to have the dropped formula be a bit better than the machine bought version. This would make it easy to get into the tier by just ambling up to the machine, but still reward those who go out and work their tail off to get the actual drop.

Something like having the dropped version require slightly less resources or grant a couple more points of whatever... We all know the lengths players will go to to get 2 more points of a favorable stat.

Interesting idea, but it's a massive amount of work, every formula and product would have to be cloned, then adjusted, then tested. Probably take months just to create all that content.

I'm not sure who would be more inclined to use the machine. For example would you buy recycled/compatible printer ink, if it was more expensive than the official ink product? Or do you mean that the robots prices would be lower because the product they sell is of a lower standard?

[Chasing]

But its still RNG - it could STILL take you weeks or months to get the one you want if you have bad luck (like me, and apparenlty Shinkuu! RNG hates me in all forms, across all genres and RL too lol).

Sorry Firth-Rae but I understood what you were saying with the RNG in reference to the junk loot, but not in this context.

Doesn't every single MMO function around a random chance/value system?

If I hit for the same amount of damage all the time combat gets even more boring.

If I go out and loot the exact item I need in 5 mins (everytime) you lose immersion (although you could argue immersion vs grind).

Trade/Barter gets worse as everyone gets what they want too easily (there has to be a challenge).

Personally I would get bored very quickly and just not bother playing. Takes the fun away. (Yes I know Fun vs Grind)

But here is a strength and a flaw. We are so used to relying on going and getting stuff ourselves, and many of us assume or believe that we can't get what we need via trade/barter so we don't bother or (for whatever reason) don't sell items even thou we are sitting on 5 of them on a mule. Or we are too reliant on the few people that go out of their way to make everything or sell everything. Thats a culture change, how do you fix that?

[Guaran]

I think it is better to think of the lore tokens -> formulatron is more of a "bonus" that you find once in awhile, and then either sell the token or go pull the lever and see what you get. Then sell the formula if you don't need it.

To me its a moot point, even for die hard crafter only players, because as it is forms and techs drop quite often from the right mobs.

[Chasing]

I think it is better to think of the lore tokens -> formulatron is more of a "bonus" that you find once in awhile, and then either sell the token or go pull the lever and see what you get. Then sell the formula if you don't need it.

To me its a moot point, even for die hard crafter only players, because as it is forms and techs drop quite often from the right mobs.

Sorry Guaran but you have missed part of the concept of the new tokens and the robots. The tokens are going to be cash purchased, not quest given or looted.

[Raeshlavik]

Interesting idea, but it's a massive amount of work, every formula and product would have to be cloned, then adjusted, then tested. Probably take months just to create all that content.

I'm not sure who would be more inclined to use the machine. For example would you buy recycled/compatible printer ink, if it was more expensive than the official ink product? Or do you mean that the robots prices would be lower because the product they sell is of a lower standard?

Yeah. Most of my ideas would require a re-tooling of base Istaria mechanics and are therefore not feasible - but it's fun to dream up stuff.

Yes, the 'trons would sell the 'basic' formulas fairly cheap, just so everyone with level access to the tier would be able to manufacture the tier items. But the real go-getters would have access to the improved versions via drops which can then be used personally, or sold for a profit.

Just something so that everyone can play, but the truly dedicated get to play slightly better or hold a market edge.

Then again this sort of implies that there is a market for 'better than average' which I just don't know if Istaria has right now.

[Thicklesip]

I actually really like the idea of making an indefinite-duration forms-only consigner next to the 'Trons to give some direct competition. Personally the biggest impediment to my selling the techs and forms I pick up is that it's so much work on my part-- and I'm not even trying to make a profit. First you list all your techs and forms-- oops, sorry, no you list a bunch of them and then shove the remainder back into storage because the consign limit for a single "big" subscription doesn't give you enough space for the results of multiple hunting trips-- and pay out the nose for the privilege. Then you wait!

And wait.

And wait.

One week later 50-90% of them come back just because the market of people interested in what you were selling is absolutely tiny and one other guy posted a couple overlapping products two days after you did. Haul it all out of your vault, rinse and repeat.

Of course a single indefinite consign would solve the demand side problem of "the sellers got so demoralized that they're pawning it all"-- but then the supply side would be even WORSE, because now there's even less incentive to take your stuff out of circulation when it doesn't sell. I'm sure some people would eventually give up and pawn their copies of the stuff five other people are selling, but a form/tech economy that relies on people pawning their surplus strikes me as inelegant. (Maybe the devs disagree. Dunno.) So then we'd need something to do with all the surplus. Hrm.

Maybe use them as a way to buy 'Tron tokens at some high ratio-- like 10 forms per 1 token? But that would probably make buying the tokens with cash pointless, which we don't want to do.

Perhaps add a repurposed Nadia who will sell you tech comps in exchange for an equivalent tier of techs/forms? Say, 5 techs or forms to buy 1 comp, or 10-15 per 1 rare comp? That way you'd either have to spend money to buy unneeded techs/forms, or else go hunting for unneeded techs/forms, and in return it smooths out the ravages of RNG a little. Hmm, I like that. And if you keep the ratio high enough, it shouldn't hurt all the hunters for hire. I think.

Then again I come at this from the perspective of a dragon who disdains sullying itself with something as ignoble as combat. There's pretty gems to carve and lairs to dig, why go kill things when there's people I can hire to do it for me?

[Chasing]

I actually really like the idea of making an indefinite-duration forms-only consigner next to the 'Trons to give some direct competition. Personally the biggest impediment to my selling the techs and forms I pick up is that it's so much work on my part-- and I'm not even trying to make a profit. First you list all your techs and forms-- oops, sorry, no you list a bunch of them and then shove the remainder back into storage because the consign limit for a single "big" subscription doesn't give you enough space for the results of multiple hunting trips-- and pay out the nose for the privilege. Then you wait!

Yep

• Interface for consigning products is too long winded as you have to set a specific price for every stack. A system of setting a price across a batch or group would go a long way towards fixing this.
• Also the sheer tedium of having to set individual prices per stack is probably a put off for some ppl consigning items. Its far easier to dump everything onto a pawnbroker because you don't have to set any individual prices. Another example of ppl choosing the easy most convienient option.
• Consigner limits are a frustration towards players who want to actively sell their wares. The caps probably need to be reviewed and adjusted accordingly (upwards :P). Also specifically the 10 item slots on a F2P sub are just counter productive as its an instant negative to a new player (I've mentioned this before).
• As for indefinite consignment times. Short term it may help, long term it will create a big mess. You could potentially end up with consigners hitting physical limits on the server hardware and hundreds of thousands of items sitting on a single consigner (they would also get trapped because when you view a consigner you can only see so many items at a time, the rest arent downloaded from the server). Also have to consider the point of view that it could be abused and used as a method of infinite storage. However I would think for now a 4 week consignment time might be more effective (also have a side effect of making vault overloading more difficult).

Perhaps add a repurposed Nadia who will sell you tech comps in exchange for an equivalent tier of techs/forms? Say, 5 techs or forms to buy 1 comp, or 10-15 per 1 rare comp? That way you'd either have to spend money to buy unneeded techs/forms, or else go hunting for unneeded techs/forms, and in return it smooths out the ravages of RNG a little. Hmm, I like that. And if you keep the ratio high enough, it shouldn't hurt all the hunters for hire. I think.

Interesting idea, but its not getting coin out of the system. And the economy inputs and outputs need to be geared to be predominately coin based. With the bias towards output to create a demand for coin.

[Guaran]

Sorry Guaran but you have missed part of the concept of the new tokens and the robots. The tokens are going to be cash purchased, not quest given or looted.

I don't see the point. Forms and techs are plentiful drops.

[Guaran]

I tried emailing this suggestion but keep getting delivery failures:

My suggestions for the priceless jewelry would be to change the health on the bracelet and earring to 160, reduce the +30 speed on necklace and ring to +5 speed, add a second tech slot for the ring and possibly the necklace as well. Findings below which led to my conclusions:

Character has a t5 mithril health jewelry set equipped
Health Necklace (+100 Health) 3 sockets, crystals 150 health, 65 power, 33 nature
Health Earrings (+50 health each) Armor V, Power V, Strength V adding 20 Armor, 25 Power, 25 Strength each (power and strength are only stat choices available for t5 and lower earrings)
Health Bracelets (+75 Health each) Armor V, Focus V, Dexterity V adding 20 Armor, 25 Focus, 25 Dexterity each (focus and dexterity are only stat choices available for t5 and lower bracelets)
Health Rings (+50 Health each) Armor V, Spirit V, Nature V adding 20 Armor, 25 Spirit, 25 Nature each

Typical set for t5 multiclassed adventurer, totals:
450 Health + 150 crystal, 120 Armor, 115 Power, 50 Focus, 50 Strength, 50 Dexterity, 50 Spirit, 83 Nature, 0 Speed, 0 Ethereal Armor

Rings and Necklace are only Jewelry which can take the Adventure skills like Spirit, Bow, Nature, etc. and the crystals that can also boost them.

Characters stats of all the affected skills with the above t5 set equipped (no buffs):
1681 Armor
368 Ethereal Armor
2890 Health
1305 Power
1130 Strength
1182 Focus
1190 Dexterity
72 Speed
1501 Nature
1271 Spirit

********************************
T6 Jewelry set:
Priceless Necklace (60 Power, 60 Focus, 60 Ethereal Armor, 30 Speed), 1 socket crystal +150 health
Priceless Earrings (60 Armor, 60 Health, 60 Dexterity, 60 Strength) Power V tech 25 Power each
Priceless Bracelets (60 Armor, 60 Health, 60 Dexterity, 60 Strength) Focus V tech 25 Focus each
Priceless Rings (60 Power, 60 Focus, 60 Ethereal Armor, 30 Speed), Nature V tech 25 Nature each

Typical t6 set totals:
240 Health + 150 crystal), 240 Armor, 230 Power, 230 Focus, 240 Strength, 240 Dexterity, 0 Spirit, 50 Nature, 90 speed, 180 Ethereal Armor

Only 240 health when the t5 set adds 450? This is the main issue.

Characters stats of all the affected skills with the above t6 set equipped (no buffs):
1801 Armor
548 Ethereal Armor
2680 Health
1420 Power
1320 Strength
1362 Focus
1380 Dexterity
162 Speed
1487 Nature
1239 Spirit

Differences (t6 set values minus t5 set values. stats affect the skills somewhat)
+120 Armor
+180 Ethereal Armor
-210 Health
+115 Power
+190 Strength
+180 Focus
+190 Dexterity
+90 Speed
-14 Nature
-32 Spirit

Since health is already on ears and bracelets, and the idea is to add about 180 vs t5 levels, change the health value on earring and bracelet to +160. this will add +400 more health to the current values, or +190 net change when going from t5 to t6.

Reduce the +30 Speed to say +5 on ring and necklace. Still a nice boost but not the crazy speed doubling it currently is.

Currently all the new pieces only have a single tech slot. for the rings at least, increase the number of tech slots to 2. In the example set, I would tech on Nature V plus Spirit V, mirroring the t5 set in that respect. This will mitigate the skill drop in spirit and change it from -32 to +18 skill.

Nature skill is still a drop (the t5 set had a +33 crystal in the necklace) compared to the t5. Adding a second tech slot on the necklace will mitigate that. +33 Nature crystal in a second socket, would be a net increase of +19 in comparison to the t5 set.

The ring and necklace changes result in fairly small skill increases, but eliminates the drops which shouldn't be there.

Guaran