On the subject of RP, OOC, emotions, and communication.

[Shadina]

(1. Speedy RPing - Essentially is exactly what the name says, fast RPing, during normal RP's and battle scenes or something exciting occuring. My problems that arise for me, is: Me, being the person that I am, who likes to paint a very detailed scene of the environment, my character's actions/poses/thoughts, etc, comes very naturally to me.

Inasmuch, I do this as a form of 'post-fattening' (if-you-will), to give my posts more meat, more fat to go off of. They then don't simply look like one-liner posts or a few sentences because I've taken the time, (and gotten in the habit of) filling out my posts with greater information like I listed above: thought processes, scene painting, behaviors, actions, poses, etc. I've learned to do this because I first started out RPing on a forum and thus we had definitely the room to do so, and it helped in the long run as it became a much more satisfying RP and something worth re-reading even.

What I've come to notice that happens now and again on the various places I role-play, Istaria being the most current, is that, during battle scenes, emotional scenes, or just plain ol' exciting scenes that call for an urge to WANT to RP the scene out, what's the next line!? All that fun and anticipation that builds up makes some players forget that there are other RPers who love these chances to RP. They, and Myself, absolutely LOVE these types of scenarios as it's a wonderful time to get in some hardcore very detailed and memorable posts for a very memorable situation, like a battle.

Thus us RPers who thoroughly enjoy painting huge scenes are often times (during Istaria for example) "breaking the buffer" in our posts. Meaning, we reach the maximum length of a sentence in one window, we open a new tab and keep on typing our post out. Often times we've gotten up to 7, 8, 9, even 11 windows open just dedicated to ONE POST.

For the players that don't paint enormous scenes naturally, this can be a time of impatience and confusion at times wondering what we're doing on our 'turn' essentially in an RP.

And what I often see happening that is the root of this rant #1, is they'll go ahead and keep posting. They'll make smaller posts to react to another person's post. While we're still typing as quickly as we possibly can to get our long post out. And the problem that occurs, is this:

We're typing a long post already to account for alot of things happening. If the impatient RPers CONTINUE TO POST, that's MUCH MORE information that US as the lengthy RPers are forced to acknowledge and post MORE about. So essentially when we eek out our long post, it's either far behind what's currently happening now since the impatient RPer's have continued the plot along, or our posts don't even apply anymore.

Often times the people who make lengthy posts often have to severely truncate(shorten) our posts and hold ourselves back from posting alot for the other RPers' enjoyment. When in turn sacrificing our OWN enjoyment as all we would love to do is have everyone be a bit patient and let us type out our long lovely posts.

Basically I'm ranting about people RPing out of turn with no regard for the longer posters as the longer posters, (who I personally feel add a big chunk of flavor to any website or game), end up getting shoved to the side or restrained in lieu of the shorter RPers' posts. It's not a pleasant thing and can turn off the longer RPers' drive to post anything at all.

Verbosity is not a virtue in real-time role-playing.

FULL DISCLOSURE: Shinkuu is my RL mate, and we agree on a great many things. I felt there was some things I needed to add to her thoughts on this subject.

Long, flowery poses may do very well in Forum RPs, and I can see how that would be a good thing, but Istaria is a real-time RP. As a participant in this RP, you are interacting in relative real-time with many other people who are waiting for your responses to things. The value system for what is, or is not, good to pose is very different from a forum RP, or a story.

What is good, what is 'virtuous' in terms of poses in a real-time rp is density. You want to pack as much pertinent information into as small a space as possible. By this value system, if you can convey a lot with a single line, that is an excellent pose. Even answering with a single word, such as answering a 'yes/no' question with a 'Yes' or 'No' is perfectly okay.

The proper analogy for this kind of roleplaying is table-top roleplaying. In that circumstance, there is the DM, who's job it is to handle all the details of the setting, the NPCs, etc, and the players, whos' only job is to respond, concisely, to the given situation, revealing to the other players only what they should know, only what they can interact with.

In a situation like this, each player is not expected to describe their surroundings, it isn't their place to do so. Nor do they describe what they are thinking, as there is no way for the other players to know that, generally speaking.

This seems to be an issue with a number of RPers in Istaria, knowing the difference between interactable information, and non-interactable information. What is interactable information? It is information that you are posing which other characters can interact with. Speech and other sounds your character are making are assumably interactable, unless you state otherwise. Expressions you make, actions you perceptibly take, etc. All these things are interactable, because the other players can percieve them, and choose to respond to them.

Non-interactable information is information in your pose that other players can't respond to. This includes thought prcesses, internal mental monologues, descriptions of the environment, and actions that are hidden from the other participants.

EXAMPLE ONE
*Shadina sat off to the side in the clearing, wondring where Shinkuu was. Was she in the Dead Pool feasting on the Aegis again? Was she off practicing her blacksmithing, or forging weapons for friends, or could she possibly be in danger? How was the black Saris to know? What if Shinkuu was in danger? What if she needed the help of her healer and mate?

EXAMPLE TWO
*Shadina hid in the bushes at the edge of the clearing, keeping completely silent and out of sight as she watched the events going on. Her fingers twitched as she though about the nature spells she could be casting, or the wounds she could be healing, but she was afraid if she got involved that she would be badly hurt and would just have to recall anyway.

In Example One, we see a character who is essentially doing nothing. Most of the pose is completely non-interactive, as it is an internal mental monologue. Unless another player wants to clain to be able to read her mind, no one can automatically know, ICly, the information tha tplayer has conveyed, so they cannot, as a good roleplayer, respond to it. If this player wanted to pose what's going on with their character at all, this would be a more appropriate pose:

*Shadina sat in the shadow of a tree at the edge of the clearing quietly with a worried expression on her face*

In Example Two, the character is completely hidden from sight and sound, by their own plan and admission, and is furthermore, quietly, internally conjecturing on what they COULD have been doing if they were ACTUALLY interacting with other people. This entire pose is completely unnecessary. At most, a pose like. *Shadina is hidden in the bushes* may be slightly appropriate to announce to others that you are in the channel, and may be percieved by characters with extraordinary forms of perception, but is otherwise outside the current ongoing scene.

Poses should be as interactable as possible, including only things that involve the senses of one's fellow characters. If it cannot be seen, smelled, heard, tasted or touched, or otherwise percieved, then it should not be included in your pose. In cases like Istaria, where the setting is already established, references to it that are not directly pertinent to your characters actions are redundant. That is the true nature of the proper aesthetic for a pose in a real-time rp.

Now, on a somewhat unrelated topic, but still pertaining to RP in Istaria, I have another subject, mostly unrelated to Reverse's post, to address.

Hyperlinks, Names, Items and Numbers

I've heard some people complain about the use of hyperlinks, spell names, or numbers in RP. This i a touchy, nuanced subject, but there are some notes that I want to make.

We ARE roleplaying IN the world of Istaria, which means that many of the things in-game apply exactly as they are. Therefore, in the example that Shinkuu gave, in which the description of her character included hyperlinks to the sword and shield, I think that is completely appropriate. Those are the items she is holding, in that exact detail.

Moreover, if a character were to cast a spell, it should generally be a spell that they know, and not only would it be appropriate for them to hyperlink it, but it is preferable that they do so. Firstly, it helps to justify that they do in fact have the spell, secondly, it informs other players about the details of the spell, if they don't know. It helps to provide valuable context upon which other players can base the reactions of their characters. Spells do have names in the world of Istaria. Maybe not everyone knows the name of every spell, but those who should may certainly use them in their speech, though the roman numeral level of the spell may be inappropriate.

Numbers, such as the average damage of a spell or attack is only appropriate in OOC meta-rp talk, but is valuable there to provide more context for the players, as in the above paragraphs. It all plays back into the value of density that I mentioned at the start of the post.

TLR Version
Longer is not better. Shorter and more densely packed with information is better. Poses in real-time rp should contain only information other players can interact with.

Also, we are playing in a game world, and the spells, items and gear in that game world do apply, therefore Item names and hyperlinks are not only fair play, but useful and preferred whenever possible.

[Raptress]

I'm not going to comment on everything in the thread. I'm just going to add a few points that factor into my own style of roleplaying that I don't think have been mentioned.

I don't adhere to a rule that says that one cannot post paragraphs in Istaria, nor that one cannot post a single-word response, nor that everything in a post must interactable.

My RP style will change to fit the needs of the environment I'm in. If I'm RPing with people I know like to do paragraph posts, I will tend to do paragraph posts. If I'm in a channel and most are posting shorter, more concise entries, I will do the same. It's about flexibility to me, not about which is the "right" way because there isn't a "right way."

I do throw in character thought processes and other things that are not actionable some of the time. It's not just for filler though. Much of the time it's because it will add value to the post in a reader entertainment sort of way, because, you know.. posts have to be read. Who wants to read boring posts? However, I do always try to make sure that some if not most of the post is actionable at all times.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I agree with Raptress there. If some players prefer short posts, they are free to do so. If they prefer long posts, they can do it too. Personally, I am not often writing long posts, and they rarely go past four lines.
I write my character's thoughs, sometimes, intending not to make it known by another character, but by other roleplayers. In this case, I think other roleplayers will understand better the situation of my character and see the possible consequences it might bring, before an action can occur. By showing to other roleplayers the thoughs of a character, they know better what is or may be going on, in my opinion.
I think, as well, that long post's paragraphs would fit better when the active roleplayers aren't more than two or three, because having more characters doing that would bring much more details to consider, and would require more time.

[Frith-Rae]

Just to agree with what several others have said - I'll be as brief as I can be for my own motivations, but we all know I"m long winded anyway .


1 --I agree that paragraph RP and "quick" RP both have their place in Istaria (I too am a long time-forum RPer). It just depends on the situation and the feel of those around you. If its a battle scene - you need to keep it to "one post" length to me (the 4-5 lines) so that others can get in their responses and keep the fight moving. If you are sitting in a clearing discussing things, and it is clear that everyone can type as a reasonable speed, go ahead and give me a couple of screens (but I think 4-5 tabs is waaaaaaaayyy too much) to read and expect the same. But if I'm in a discussion and its clear someone can't type so fast, and they take 4 minutes to get out three sentences - then I think its important to shorten yours as well. To me, RP can get intimidating if one out of 3 posters is only giving 2-3 setences to everyone else's 10 or 12.

This also can sometimes come off as very self-centric simply because the chat room isn't your personal novella; but sometimes giving 2-3-4 paragraphs for each of your characters movements/engagements comes off as self-centered. I'm not saying its "wrong" if that's the flow and feel of what's going on around you! I'm only saying be aware of how this can be interpreted if you find that 90% of the RP occuring is all your sentences...compared to everyone else's.


2 - I also agree you shouldn't be describing your character's thoughts in great detail. Unless you're giving hints in your expression, I shouldn't know that you actually think ABC when you're acting XYZ. That's meta-information/Meta-RP I can't react on, and its quite frankly, annoying to me and again sometimes comes off as self-centric RP - and othertimes can be taken extremely off in ooc knowledge.

I DO engage in this in Forum RP becauseto me thats' more "novel like" and provides insight into my characters. Or if I'm posting say the stories on the forums. But in chat-RP giving far too much your inner thoughts when you're facial or body is not telling the same story, can lead to a great many problems.

Just giving one example I feel when someone is telling me their charactres thoughts - I never know if they do actually want me to ask them more, or somehow "feel" or "sense" and prod them for more information. When someone writes, "She sat calmly, but inside she was fuming" some people DO expect you to prod back with "sensing tension with XYZ Frith-Rae nudges them and smiles curiously" or something. I get that feeling of "expectation", because to me "why would you tell me that if I can't actually know it?"

Which is much different from, "She sat calmly, but her muscles twitched with anger as the tension she felt around XYZ bleeds into the air around her." THAT you can RP with because it gives the other RPer an "in", and I can tell clearly that the person is ok with RPing wiht others knowing it. The other way, you can't read it - you don't know and unforutnately I've had far too many experiences where people "RPing thoughts" either means they get upset when you don't ask, or they get upset when you DO ask, or its actually an expression of their OOC feelings and a copout-passive aggressive way of expressing themselves. (So that if you challenge or react to it they can then yell at you for doing so.. - games I dont play).

THere are ways to express "thoughts" while still allowing it to be possible to 'read' your charater by others. But I've seen it abused far to often to not have "flags raise" when someone starts doing it around me.

As other games always say with "bio descriptions" - "Don't describe things someone can't see from just looking at you. I can't look at you and know your life story."

Wiht the rest, I generally would just quote it all - but that would be far too long. These were just the two biggest salient points I wanted to comment about . To me its about going with the flow of those around me, and adjusting accordingly. AND COMMUNICATING!! YES! YES!

[Darkwing_Duck]

I tend to be medium. sometimes I`ll do a small paragraph, other times I`ll do a quick 4 or 5 word emote. all depends what ideas are going through my head, and my RP mood at the time. XD Only time I do more the paragraph style is when the RP is uber active. like an adventure RP, where two or more characters are fighting, or joining each other to fight evil. normal/light RP`s like talking/snuggling/playing, I tend to do short to the point emote style.
I`m still in the learning curve, and have messed up quite a bit, but I`m hoping with some practice, or even some advice I`ll get better.

[velveeta]

hehee you are still better than me - i don't even know how to do the emote thing where you put in your own text.....

[Fix]

As someone said before me - it is really not just Istaria but roleplay in general that is becoming rather slackened...I am speaking out of experience. Until a few weeks ago I was literally jumping from game to game trying to find suitable roleplay, only to be met with said problems. I am afraid to say it is really a phase/time thing. Many older roleplayers are either getting fed up or are not around, and even the promising younger ones are really getting their hopes DASHED by the inexperianced breed. The problem being - many of them get the wrong influence, or are too childish to fix their mistakes.

As for the subject of people "not talking to eachother", I really cannot say...I for one remember that problem when I was last on but now? I do not think it is THAT prominent. I mean - it is there, but I do not really see it. Though I do see traces - I hardly communicate with other roleplayers OOCly and ICly they are sometimes a bit too reserved and repetitive. Which is BIG, BIG, -BIG- shame because when they do try, they try WELL. There are many, MANY promising roleplayers about Order, but there are also some that do not seem to be trying. I for one do not mind when a person new to roleplaying wishes to try to do it, and tries badly (Such as using emoticons (Such as : ) and : ( ) , not knowing what the difference between IC and OOC is and perhaps a bit of bragging), but it is not good when those people persist and no one attempts to stop or lecture them. While it is not any of my business to stop or demand anyone do this, it would help not draw anymore negative influence. I personally think it is more of a duty of an experienced roleplayer -or hell, any roleplayer - to teach a newcomer whom is a tad lost what to do. And it is their right to have that knowledge if they want to join in. Once again - MY opinion and ONLY my opinion.

Another thing I think I'll bring up is of course the problem of people being too strict. I personally have not seen it very often on Istaria (Thank God) but when it does crop up it is usually a tad...silly. I personally have NO problem with roleplaying with another person whom posts a 2 paragraph LONG emote, when I simply feel like short-posting (we have our moods), likewise the other way around. For me - if the emote is clear and gets it's message across, its' fine! I so far have not encountered anyone whom simply messages another with “OMG POST LONGER NUB LOL L2RP” , and that’s good. Shows we are a tad more mature. But I HAVE heard rumors and words travelling that there have been some overly-strict judgments over certain players in the RP community. Once again – my opinion, but I think that care has to be taken. Order’s RP Community is not HUGE. That is a fact. It is vibrant and hell – I love small RP communities! I feel everyone has more of an identity, a more familiar feel. I’ve hardly been back a week now and I can recognize many, many people! That is why I urge – IF these things I hear are real, to be a tad more lenient. With such a small RP community it is not wise to squander people for small things. It may not seem to matter at first but when you begin spreading the influence… The point being – If said person has gone about, harassing people OOCly, being insulting and annoying ICly and breaking the basic roleplay rules again and again, then yes. Perhaps then you should suggest he stops. Should he continue, then take appropriate steps. Once again my OPINION here.

And last but not least – OOC input. I do not know if this is still about but when I last was on Istaria there was a bit of a problem with people making small groups and otherwise exiling themselves. Or they bottled up problems they had with other players until it all burst out at once. I see far more OOC input now and hell – I’ve been critiqued and joked with quite a few times. It seems good. But many times it seems dead. And I think I have spotted signs of certain roleplays becoming a tad more mixed up as a result of people not speaking to eachother enough. Once again – I am no expert, it’s my opinion and I am simply going off bare observation. Personally, if I am having a roleplay with someone and I think it will be long term – I message them, greet them, compliment them and acknowledge them. If someone is being annoying or does things I find distasteful, I contact them and tell them, perhaps suggesting they stop or tweak their problems. If I am indeed wrong - and I really hope I am – and no such problems exist, good! Otherwise, I think these things need to be addressed. After all – We are not just roleplaying to enjoy ourselves. We roleplay to help others enjoy themselves. If we simply where to remove all other players from the world and roleplay on our own it would not be very fun, would it! Consider OTHERS. Keep THEM in mind. If the community thrives – you thrive! I believe if these things are kept in check such problems will not arise. But then again - we all have our opinion. I personally think there are MANY friendly faces! I am admittedly a very, VERY shy person and I really struggled to ask how things where going in-game. But I gathered the courage and asked! I received a very friendly respaunce.
Oh yes. Did I mention this was just my OPINION? I know I’ll probably still get bashed to death. So I guess I shall stand under this oh-so-conveniently placed lead shield next to this conveniently placed shield and in this conveniently placed bunker. Mercy!

PS: I apologize for the constant use of – or capslock to emphasize certain words :P

[Starstilanxs]

Well, I feel I might as well join this at this point, it is likely going to be a rather short post.

First off, on the main topic of this entire conversation..
Seperation between OOC and IC is a primary and key point that I am sure everyone who I RP with knows. I can't stress it enough to avoid things where people decide to take whatever happens in IC to OOC context, it creates massive amounts of drama that I specifically state should not happen in the first place.

On to the other points, I agree with Raptress. There -is- no right way to RP, its a creative expression, like an active and on-going artform that is purely collaborative. This is why I love Role-Playing, it is a great community effort where your character is just one in -many- others, interacting in different situations depending on what is going on. Now, this leads me to the next point about expressing a characters thoughts. It is my RP style to explain what my character is thinking, it gives him more depth and if someone doesn't like it, I could only say to avoid my RP. Not to say that I wouldn't want to RP with others, its just my playstyle and how I write.

With the newer roleplayers on Order, I -always- do try and give them a good and warm welcome. I regulate myself based on what material I am given and I try and post in a length that doesn't overshadow anyone and make them feel inadiquate because I like -all- RP, it doesn't matter if someone posts a one liner vs. an entire paragraph as long as its something and they are trying to RP with me.
If someone is new to the game, I try and help them specifically learn everything. Telling them about using brackets for OOC and how to RP in general. I also direct them to the OOC channel I host because we have a great time in there and there are always welcoming people to talk with to both help and just plain speak with!

I am one of those where I have my small groups and my large groups that I linger within, I try and open up to everyone reguardless of RP to make all the players on Order feel like they are welcome and have someone to RP with.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I agree with all of this.

The chances to have quiet discussions and RP with new roleplayers are greater if they feel welcomed and if the rules and the other roleplayers' common manners (OoC signs,...) are explained at the same time they are pointed, I think, about brackets, IC, OoC as well as about the other rules.

To roleplay means interacting socially with other roleplayers, through the characters our between themselves (OoC). When ones roleplays, this is not only for himself/herself but also, to please others.

Indeed, everyone has a style to RP, and there isn't right nor bad RP, as long as ones' RP character and style please to other persons. Also, nobody can please to everybody, so when ones don't like a RP, to stay out of it is the best way.

Many characters are more or less out-of-lore on the Order shard's RP, and it is a matter of tastes, I think, as long as there aren't overpowering things.