Talk to the Team: Rare Collectibles

[AmonGwareth]

As part of looking into ways to improve the enjoyment of the game for all levels of player, we began looking into the quality of loot that drops from Named Mobs of all tiers. And we devised a system by which Named Mobs (including Epics) would drop a new tiered type of Soul Shard.

These Soul Shards could be traded or sold between players and then eventually traded at a new type of NPC Vendor for special unique items. It is these items that we wanted to get your opinions of.

So, the question is what types of items would you like to see on these vendors? And, if you like the idea of this system at all.

- Rare Weapons
- Old Dragon Techniques (Dismissal, Eminence, etc)
- Ambrosia (Items, not formulas)
- New Spells
- New Techniques
- Old Event Items (Staff of Ribeth, Thurin Hatchet, etc)



Q. Would this replace existing epic loot on mobs such as Valkor and Reklar?
A. Yes, it would. Valkor and Reklar parts would then be sold by the Vendors.

Q. What sort of new spells or techniques?
A. Tier 6 Spells, Dragon Gift Spells, Enhance Tradeskills, Rare Kicker Techniques, Shock of Ice/Fire/etc, Cleanse greater than Tier 3, etc.

Q. Would items purchased from the vendor be tradeable?
A. No, all items purchased from the vendor using Soul Shards would be attuned automatically.

Q. Will old Soul Fragments work?
A. No, these vendors will use a new tiered type of Soul Shard.

Q. Will more items be added over time?
A. Yes, they will.

Q. How rare will the Soul Shards be?
A. Rare, but not impossibly rare. The odds of getting a Soul Shard from a Named Mob will be greater on the more difficult of the Named Mobs.

[Frith-Rae]

I'm a bit torn here - so I may chime in with more of a formed opinion after I read the thoughts of others.

On one hand, I like the idea and see where you might be trying to go. I get the purpose of removing specific rare parts off of named mobs due to the frustration people have with getting each specific part (and say you've killed the thing 20 times and the part you need isn't dropped, etc.). I also get the idea of having multiple items to pick up with the "Soul Shards" so it gives people more reason to keep running the same content (the named mobs), gives more incentive and rewards, so there's more just stuff.

However, I dont like the idea because of the nature of the rewards. These rewards appear to be effectively putting in an "end game" so to speak, where people will now fill driven to get each and every reward on the vendor to "epic out" their character with the highest techs/armor/weapons/spells/etc. This to me puts in just a different version of end game grind that other games have. Instead of runnig that 5 or 10 man dungeon for the next few months to get XYZ piece of upgrade, in Istaria instead you just kill the same named mobs over and over and over again until you get your 110 soulshards to get all your upgrades. (numbers random lol).

On the one hand while I get the "need" for some aspect of the game at end game to provide a reason and reward to continue grinding content. But on the other hand, this isn't providing content - its just providing epic rewards for doing the same content over and over again. Seems like a shortcut. Which, not necessarily anything wrong with that on the surface - I'd just rather see the time spent in developing new content itself, and not rewarding the farming of old content as much.

Course I also realize that developing new content takes far and away more time than just putting up a few rewards on a vendor.

I don't know, its just leaving a bad taste in my mouth. Wether its because its encouraging mass farming of names for hours on end at level 100/100 adinfenitum, or just because I'd rather see soul shards give fluff items and not actual 'in game effect' items. I'm not sure.

Again like I said, my thoughts are jumbled, but that's my first impression.

But perhaps the hardcore hunters are really wanting something like this in place, in which case I can't give that opinion as I'm not one =D I'm just torn with the whole idea, with the only thought that giving out cool fluff items instead for the grind makes the bad taste go away. But with giving out end-game upgrade items, it just..I dont know..makes that grind seem more 'required' and not 'optional.'

[Chasing]

I am very much for this idea.

Only thing I would ask that these shards are a rare drop (IE can't be farmed and burnt out in a week).

Also bear in mind that some of us have pieces of epics, but not full sets. It might be worth allowing players an option of cashing in their pieces (if they want to) for shards before this new proposed system goes in.

PS Rare craft equipment?

[LOVWYRM]

this is very difficult to answer for me.
I love the idea that named mobs drop something that is worth the effort.
And I agree with Chasing that is has to be REAL rare.
I go with Frith and prefer the rewards to be rather "nice to have" than "must have".
Though I still do not have the Reklar Scale (after 7 years^^) I am not sure if I like the idea that Reklar and Valkor hunts (which are real endgame content for me) will become useless.
But all other rewards that are described are fine for me.
But this is only my first impression. Have to think it over again.

[Chasing]

Perhaps some of the existing epics should be beefed up a bit to bring them in line with the harder ones and to provide more of a challenge :P

Another thought, what happens to existing complete epics that are currently attune on equip? Will they automatically be attuned?

[C`gan]

Things I'd like to see added to the vendor:
Bat of the Gnerph
Boar's Hide Mask
Primal Vengeance Tech

My one question pertains to the hunt itself. will the soul shard itself be tradeable? I've seen very few times hunting Valkor, Reklar, Fafnir, Daknor, and SoG where it wasn't a full group taking it down. Often at the end of the kill, those in the group /random for the predominant loot of the hunt. I'm certainly hoping these soul shards don't attune on looting or there'll be some really nasty in-game disputes over who gets one when.

Otherwise, I'm in favor of this one. Maybe I can get the other four pieces of Valkor's sword in time this way.

[Xanthia]

Alright let's break this down shall we?

These Soul Shards could be traded or sold between players and then eventually traded at a new type of NPC Vendor for special unique items.

First initial thought: Yes.. YES! Make it happen now. o.o

So, the question is what types of items would you like to see on these vendors? And, if you like the idea of this system at all.

- Rare Weapons
- Old Dragon Techniques (Dismissal, Eminence, etc)
- Ambrosia (Items, not formulas)
- New Spells
- New Techniques
- Old Event Items (Staff of Ribeth, Thurin Hatchet, etc)

At this point I let out a squeal like dragon at a gnome convention.

Q. Would this replace existing epic loot on mobs such as Valkor and Reklar?
A. Yes, it would. Valkor and Reklar parts would then be sold by the Vendors.

Aaaaaand stop.

The is the part where my pessimistic side rears it's ugly head. Before I start jumping to conclusions and running worst-case scenarios in my head (ooops too late)....I need to clarify a few things.

Now if I understand this correctly, the way this will work is the epic mobs will have a rare chance to drop these soul shards. And by collecting xxx amount of said soul shards you will be able to trade them in for pieces of weapons? Versus what we have now....where the same exact epic mobs have a chance of dropping pieces right from the get go.....

Sooooo.... instead of getting a piece.....I get a soul shard.....which is useless until I get more.....soul shards.... which I can then trade them in for ....a piece. *looksaround* Am I understanding this right? Is it just me or doesn't this seem more like an "extra step" design to make it harder to actually obtain individual pieces?

I mean sure...it might be better if you just need that one-piece-that-never-ever-ever-seems-to-drop-because-the-monster-being-a-bleeping-hole....but what about the folks who just started and don't have a single piece yet? Now they have to hunt xxx amount of times to just get enough soul shards to buy just one piece?

And to follow that up, how exactly will said soul shards be distributed amongst the masses? Will it be that if the mob drops it, everyone in the group gets an equal share in the loot and a soul shard will drop automatically in their inventory?

Or

Will it be a copycat of the system we have now were it's just be one soul shard that the five of us will be expected to share amongst ourselves >.>(On your mark! Get ready! Ninja loot it baby!)

Joking aside-I seriously would like to know how the soul shards will be distributed amongst players who each play a vital role in defeating these monsters.

[Akrion]

A
Sooooo.... instead of getting a piece.....I get a soul shard.....which is useless until I get more.....soul shards.... which I can then trade them in for ....a piece. *looksaround* Am I understanding this right? Is it just me or doesn't this seem more like an "extra step" design to make it harder to actually obtain individual pieces?

Well think about how many people you generally need to take down Valkor. Lets say you do it with 6. There are 20 weapon pieces and 4 weapon formulas, making for a total of 24 pieces. Valkor will drop 1 of these 24. This 1 out of 24 will then be rolled for among your group of 6. Now, starting out you'll just need any 1 of the 5 pieces for the weapon you want (if we're not counting the formula), but when you get to that last piece it'll be a 1 out of 144 chance of Valkor dropping that piece and you winning the roll out of 6 people.


Also, on the note of removing the stack for attuned items. You guys are aware that removing the stack would mean that the database would have to be able to expand to an infinite degree, right? While bulk only really serves to limiting how much you can carry before becoming encumbered, stack would require that a new database entry be made. (Can't say for sure how it works, but it's likely something along the lines of: "*Item ID* stored in *vault of character* on space *vault grid space* in a quantity of *number*(Bulk)" Each item in each individual space would need some sort of entry in the database to represent it.

However, I may have an idea that could help alleviate some burden of the attuned items.. I dunno.. I'll make a post in the suggestions thread about it.

As for the topic: I agree with the idea as a whole. Perhaps handling the rare weapons in a way similar to what Raptress suggested.

[Guaran]

Like Dak said, new stuff, not old stuff. Old stuff that was never implemented would ok to make use of though (such as kickers in some fashion and dismissal)

Giving out old items because you think that's what people want is the wrong way. They are desired because they are rare. When they aren't rare, they won't be as desired. So you squish the desirability by giving them to everyone, but haven't made the game more fun to play, the hunts more fun to participate in, so what's the point? Everyone gets them and then what? What else is there that they will desire? Nothing. That's a dead end road.

-- deleted for being off-topic --

[Thenalth]

As a person who has had a uhh, lack of luck for his entire life, i'm going to say that having a chance drop is not a good idea ESPECIALLY if it is only on named mobs. I'm -still- trying to figure out a way to make a decent cash flow at season 100 (Removal of the Cash Purses ruined any income i had), so i doubt I'd be able to trade for a long time. Which is probably the absolute primary way I'd be trying to gain these things if it's a chance drop rate.

I'm all for needing multiple soul shards to purchase one item, i'd happily require 5, mabye even 10 per item depending on how powerful it is (well, not for unique piece shards), but make them a guarantee to drop, if the --average-- drop rate was 1 in 5, and an item needed more then one soul shard, the amount of grinding would get rather painfully long. I say this because i prefer to talk and rp rather then hunt, and if a chance drop, you could kill a monster four times and not get one, and then someone else kills it the fifth time and gets the shard, having only killed one, knocking out all the work you just did. I say that because all the mmos I've played, that situation has actually occurred A LOT.

And as others have said for Epic pieces such as Reklar or Valkor, make them require a unique soul shard from those epic level monsters

TL:DR

Make Shards guarentee drop, but require multiple per item

Give Epic items like Reklar or Valkor Drops a unique shard dropped from said mobs, at a 1:1 Shard Per Piece Ratio

[Chib]

The idea is not bad but i think better leave old and existed epic stuff as it is.. it works just fine so far.. instead, yes i support everyone who said it already, add something new.. new epic items with new unique effects and new system to obtain them.. for example, let both regular epic items and item parts drop from the epics plus this soul shards, shard number and chance depends on mob hardness, and the rest is up to imagination.. new spells sounds absolutely nice, i'd be glad to see a Banshee or Reyem Wrath epic spells in game, t6 buffs, t6 heals etc.. let it be a Vendor or let it be a new mini dungeon with challenging content that will require shards to pay for the entering, just anything.. dont touch old, make new.. unlike old bits that will only go for a part of players, new stuff will improve interest of both newbies and oldies..

[Dakoren Ironhand]

- Rare Weapons
- Old Dragon Techniques (Dismissal, Eminence, etc)
- Ambrosia (Items, not formulas)
- Old Event Items (Staff of Ribeth, Thurin Hatchet, etc)

Uhm... no way! Your killing a whole economy then by making these items less worth. Be creative, make something new. Dont go lazy and reuse all the old stuff. Get new things, it aint that hard to make items... Istaria is boring as it is, especially for veterans who prolly will be using this system the most. We need - NEW - stuff, more goodies, not old stuff (no matter how good they are) being brought into the game again!!

Q. Would this replace existing epic loot on mobs such as Valkor and Reklar?
A. Yes, it would. Valkor and Reklar parts would then be sold by the Vendors.

This is a no go for me. Just make the 'soul fragments' drop not as often. Im talking 1 every 4-5 kills. Also these should - only - be dropped by epics monsters. And since there are no lower tier epic bosses than T6.. its time to start adding some for the lower tiers, every tier IMHO. Give the adventurers a real challenge through out all tiers.

Q. What sort of new spells or techniques?
A. Tier 6 Spells, Dragon Gift Spells, Enhance Tradeskills, Rare Kicker Techniques, Shock of Ice/Fire/etc, Cleanse greater than Tier 3, etc.

Sounds promising... but needs more details

Q. Would items purchased from the vendor be tradeable?
A. No, all items purchased from the vendor using Soul Shards would be attuned automatically.

Agree

These Soul Shards could be traded or sold between players and then eventually traded at a new type of NPC Vendor for special unique items. It is these items that we wanted to get your opinions of.

This is a - must - for this system to work. Might get some trading started.

Attuned items would be much less of a problem if they were both zero bulk and took zero stack space.

Totally agree, if you make the new stuff attuned this should be taken care of. Its getting really annoying these days with the darn attuned items all over the game now.

[Rhezara]

- Rare Weapons
- Old Dragon Techniques (Dismissal, Eminence, etc)
- Ambrosia (Items, not formulas)
- New Spells
- New Techniques
- Old Event Items (Staff of Ribeth, Thurin Hatchet, etc)

I REALLY like this idea, as a younger player who never even got a chance at getting old event stuff, or the techs(which I would kill to have. =P) This would make me very pleased. the new Techs/spells also catches my eye, would love to have some new stuff as well.

However, what i would like to get a quick clearing on is do soul Shards drop from every Named mob? (rare chance of course =p) ->

The odds of getting a Soul Shard from a Named Mob will be greater on the more difficult of the Named Mobs.

<- But if not and its only Epic mobs, i think most people are going to be dissapointed. (like Xanthia said: XXX soul shards for a part instead of just getting the psrt in the first place??) Perhapes they should drop from all named mobs but the 'price' for them goes up the higher the tier of monster it fell off of???

[Chasing]

Okay I'm keen for something along the lines of whats been suggested to be implemented so lets break down the issues (so far)

1. Grind vs Balance

No easy way to say this, in order for something to be rare, it has to be a challenge to get it. If its too easy to obtain a rare/epic item then its burn out content (which I am sick of). I don't want to be able to burn through the content in 1day/1week. It needs to take months (but not years :P). That way it's something that keeps people going as a goal and keeps hunting groups going. With the way it is at the moment, it is difficult for player's to get a hunting group together for the epics unless they are part of a large guild/circle of friends.

2. Easiest mobs/epics will be farmed

Always. I can already see Son of Gigaroth camped 24/7 as he is the easiest/quickest epic to take down. Therefore either he should drop a lower amount of shards (say compared to Reklar/Shaloth) or be adjusted to make him a lot more challenging to kill.

3. Attunement of items

Attunement is needed in order to keep items in demand and not in constant circulation. But I agree something needs to be done to address the amount of inventory/vault space they eat up.

4. Removal of master epic repair forms

I like the idea of specific soul shards (like a valkor shard). Allow the repair forms to be sold from this NPC trader and alter the repair forms so that it takes 5? valkor soul shards to craft the said item. Keeps in lore, and leaves a reason to hunt a specific epic for a specific item. However I would say that we need specific soul shards and a generic soul shard as well.

5. Trading rare/epic items from a NPC

As above people have already provided the solution

6. Drop rate of shards from an epic (and splitting among a group)

Could go down the route of the hardest to kill epic, drops the most soul shards (lets say 10 aka a full group), and the easiest epic drops only 1 or 2 soul shards.

Other option is to go down the instanced loot route (which is possible ingame as Daknor used to do it when he was first put in). However I'm not sure if instanced loot would help or hinder at this point.

7. Devaluing the worth of the existing rare items

I wondered how long it would take until this came up as an issue. Question is why are they being devalued? Is it because only a low % of ppl have them at the moment and they feel cheated that items they have spent a long time trying to get hold off suddenly become more available? What about the people that haven't played for over 7 years, and weren't around before the merge? Sorry but I feel that everyone should have an equal chance of getting a rare/epic item regardless of how long they may have played.

8. Possible attunement of the Shards

No where has Amon suggested that they would be attuned. However they definitely should not be attuned.

9. Tiered soul shards

One thing we aren't picking up on is that there are going to be soul shards for each tier. I would suggest that they can't be combined. IE 100x tier1 soul shards lets me buy a T6 item = EEK. If you want a T6 item you need to hunt T6, not mass farm T1 or lower tiers. If there is only one vendor I can see already that we are going to have a situation where this is going to happen.

[lightning claw]

Im 50 50 on this

YES EPION Is not complete until he has obtains the knowledge of vengeance
any thing that puts the tech or newer revised version of the quest back in the game i am for... HOWEVER

a Big Hell NO to the removal of epic loot thats already in the game

-- edited out, totally off-topic --

as for new loot
Yes i have thought of that 2 I think a reintegration of some "lost knowledge" along with some level appropriate items would be just what this game needs to get a solid player base again Like For example you guys implemented attuned tech Kits about 10 live patches ago building off this and Istarias rich story line is simple take where my lair is located for example Bayn hill
that was the sight of an EPIC battle where Reclar lost his life to the withered ages and became twisted and evil yet for some reason the Lunus adults do not learn about this at all ! Reclar was one of the Lunuses Main generals. yet there is no quest to discover what how it happened or what happened or both with the conclusion of the quest is to set reclar free and put him out of his misery there is soooo many ways you can introduce New epic loot throw epic story lines of all tires ...

[LOVWYRM]

I agree with Chasing in all points.

Things that are already ingame should be available for every player.
Some of them extremly rare- but possible to get.

All items that are already ingame or once were,
are untapped resources, sleeping assets- why waste them?

Though Flame and me managed to survive^^ without those goodies all those years (we have demonclaw and Flame has Valkor claw and flurry for his biped- but no old forms or techs or other items)
what joy would it be to be able to hunt for them!

[Sindala]

The only negative thing i can see to this is pertaining to the lower tier boss mobs.
They will be farmed 24/7 not allowing the players that are actually at that lvl chance to kill said boss mob.
Just look at Tier 1 x-stals on the maggots in NT, constantly farmed by lvl 50+ players.

I'd be for it if either boss mobs needed for quests are removed from the new system.

Or perhaps a better way (dont know if its coding possible though) you only get a chance to get the new soul shard drop if your in the same Tier as the boss mob your fighting.

[Lord Shinobai]

First off, to answer the over all question, I am a firm YES on this idea. I love the fact that you are bringing this to us in order to get feedback and suggestions. To me that basically says that it's not a question of "if" but "when" you will be going forward with something like this, have an overall general to indepth idea of how you want to implement it, but are open to suggestions/need input before you finalize the exact system. While there are many things that need fixing yet, this is definitely an addition to the game that will bring life to the current player base and also be an attraction for players looking to return to the game or just new players in general.

The idea about the Valkor and Reklar pieces having specific tokens that drop off of them is a great overall idea. It makes hunting them not irrelevant while people just farm easier epics, like others have stated. I'm sure since you are making different tier soul shards making these additional 2 soul shards that drop specifically from these two epics shouldn't be too much of a problem. But again, that's me both assuming, and hoping.

To those stating that bringing back old items will "ruin" the market that there is for them right now, please tell me what exact market that is? There are so few out there of the ones that people have, and it's not like they have multiple is almost every case, so they're not being traded/sold. I mean, if I saw even a couple times a month something like that being auctioned or sold then I could see the arguement that there's a "market" for these rare, no longer obtainable except by those who already have in game, items. Bringing them back just allows the people who were not here years ago, or who took a multiple year break (about 6 year in my case) the chance to obtain them too. This, from the rarity I'm reading, is actually going to *create* a market for these items, in an indirect way (as long as the soul shards are not attuned).

Regarding lower tiers as well as regular named mobs in the T5/6 range. My suggestion on the shards here is two fold. First, the drop rate on all regular named mobs needs to be extremely low so that regular named mobs aren't just farmed. With this being said, there's also step two, which is needing epic mobs for all tiers.

The way I suggest setting up the epics for lower tiers so that they are not just farmed by higher level players is as such. Have there be an NPC that offers "quests" to kill epics. I suggests that the quests offered depend on either your current adv or your highest adv class level. This would do many things. I would prevent high level players just farming shards of every tier, it would create a market for players of all levels (again, provided the shards are not attuned) and it would really give new players immediate excitement and a way to make some money or obtain cool items right off the bat. It also creates a need for players of similar level across all tiers to group together for something which right now isn't needed for anything until the end of the game. (if something is too hard, most people just come back to it later when they're a higher level)

Anyways, I see a lot of positive that can come out of this as well as it just being the start of something that will continue to get better and better as it's a framework for new content.

Just my 2 cents, or 2 pages.....

[Baelthos]

There are a few other ways to sort the reward-hand-out.

I've played/Beta tested More MMO games since -95. Then i have have fingers,toes and teeths togheter. And i've seen few good loot systems. And thankfuly Istaria is free from RMT's (Real world Money Traders) That monopolize the rare drop mobs. So now it only comes down to our own greed / time investment.

One option that i personally liked. Comes from a rather fresh game called Warhammer online. Where they have so called "Public Quests" )PQ's. In each tier. Where everyone can go and take part of it. Include normal quests regarding it. for XP and quest giver loot. And also for participate in it, by killing the specific PQ mobs+Boss. After boss dead, a Randomizer rolls dice for each one who participated, Depending on how much damage/ healing you did to mobs, or healing done to everyone flagged and inside the PQ area. You get Dice roll bonus.

The loot bags being rolled for are of different values. (also random) of like 4 different values. Goldbag > Purplebag > Greenbag > Whitebag. Where the white only give a randomized standard world loot item for the current tier. Where the gold give you a random rare for current tier /level on area.

And these PQ's reset and start over after 5 minutes once all the loot have been rolled and handed out. Where you pick up ur bag from a spawned chest in middle of PQ area.

This way, ppl for each tier / level area will have to co-operate for the rewards. And you can repeat doing them till there is no point. (XP/Reward-wise)

I havent been in this game for very long, but to level 33, the few times i've met up with someone at same tier have been few. And you can also have several different PQ's within the same tier, wich has different difficulty and reward value on the rare's.

This system would ofcourse force the devs to make a lot of new items, to have as rewards. Depending on how many PQ's and per tier.

Thou i would just share some of my experiance to this.

// Bae

[AguaRush]

I dont really like this idea. i guess i dont see how this is improving the game.. leave the loot system as is.. how bout fixing some stuff

like lag - save money for server upgrades?
or how bout that shoulder pet pheonix? - loyal player for 2 more years with out it
how bout new spells? animations?
customizations for all races?
new monsters?

things players have been begging for . for years.

sorry this is a major rant. but if its not broken. dont fix it.

-end rant.