Hatchling changes.

[Zanon]

I always found it funny that there is no difference in evasion in between a small hatchling and a towering huge ancient. It seems by size there seems to be a boost to str, health and armor. This is kinda unfair for hatchlings.

Would it not be nice to see them more evasive than their bigger counterparts and have more dex. After all they are smaller, more nimble due to size, they are not as strong as an adult or ancient much less can take a beating like their bigger counterparts. that evasion bonus can dissapear if they ever decide to become adults.

Hachlings will always lack the nifty abilitys adults and ancients get. Instead of it being some mandatory process that forces you to be bigger in order to get everything to your disposal. Give people who would like to play hachlings a different play style. They can be more evasive to counter their poor defences. Still they will never achieve getting different breaths or stronger abilities , however it will provide a fun challange.

But lets not end there. For hatchlings that had managed to make it to the 100 mark in both craft and adventure, why not give them an epic questline where they can earn the right to fly, however no where as fast as an adult or ancient. Because their is an altitude limit on adults and ancients, a stricter one can be placed on these brave hatchlings. flight might be slower than running.

[Akrion]

I made a suggestion like this in another thread and it didn't seem to get any response, but I completely agree that stuff like evasion should drop as you ascend.

[Shian]

I like these ideas. I really like the idea of having several dragons that have different abilities instead of "Every dragon is the same dragon". Since hatchies cannot get many of the adult and ancient abilities, while they may not be as strong as them, it would be nice to give some sort of advantage to those who stay young.

[Veruliyam]

I would agree, but only to a point.

Having watched my kitten grow, he isn't exactly the epitome of grace all the time.

Probably an apples to oranges comparison.

A hatchling comes up to the shoulders of a human, but there is a lot of mass hopping on 4 legs.

If it's conceded that they get an evasion bonus, I doubt they would get much. Not enough to make a difference.

[Akrion]

I would agree, but only to a point.

Having watched my kitten grow, he isn't exactly the epitome of grace all the time.

Probably an apples to oranges comparison.

A hatchling comes up to the shoulders of a human, but there is a lot of mass hopping on 4 legs.

If it's conceded that they get an evasion bonus, I doubt they would get much. Not enough to make a difference.

Though an Istarian hatchling can't grow physically, this doesn't mean it can't grow mentally, so you can't really compare a kitten to a cat with a hatchling to an adult. Otherwise that would suggest hatchlings have their maximum level capped well before 100 else it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

The mass difference between a hatchling dragon and an adult dragon would be so significant that I don't even think I could really put it into terms well enough to describe it. A baby elephant has an average weight of roughly 300 pounds, while the weight of a full grown elephant can reach nearly 25,000 pounds (Ones that would compare to the size of an Adult Dragon, anyway). That's an 83.33~ to 1 difference in weight, and that would only be comparing hatchling dragons to adult dragons, I don't even think I could make a viable comparison to an Ancient. So it would make a rather significant difference. Hatchling dragons wouldn't be more potentially agile than bipeds, but far more than adults.

I guess you could argue that they could be constructed differently, and the weight difference wouldn't be quite as significant. But on the same note I could also say that the weight of an Adult or Ancient chest place vs the weight of a Hatchling chest plate would effectively nullify that advantage. xD

[Kesqui]

But lets not end there. For hatchlings that had managed to make it to the 100 mark in both craft and adventure, why not give them an epic questline where they can earn the right to fly, however no where as fast as an adult or ancient. Because their is an altitude limit on adults and ancients, a stricter one can be placed on these brave hatchlings. flight might be slower than running.

I'm not sure how they'd implement this beyond:

There is already an epic quest that hatchlings can embark onto that will grant them the power of flight.
Hatchlings who choose not to follow that quest path and would prefer to stay hatchlings do have a limited flight option - gliding.

I do think dexterity and evasion might be a hatchling's strong point - same as Khutit should have greater dexterity and evasion should someone want to play primarily as one.

[Zanon]

I would agree, but only to a point.

Having watched my kitten grow, he isn't exactly the epitome of grace all the time.

Probably an apples to oranges comparison.

A hatchling comes up to the shoulders of a human, but there is a lot of mass hopping on 4 legs.

If it's conceded that they get an evasion bonus, I doubt they would get much. Not enough to make a difference.

Its bad to compare a kitten which its body and mental capacity is growing, to a hatchling who learns and become as wize as an ancients. seeing the size of the hatchling, you compare it to the size of a human, you can easly compare a hatchling to a horse or bull. still why are we comparing real life things with in game things.

[Zanon]

Just to add, does anyone remember when turning into a khutit reduced their stats? Well if you do than you know it could easly be implemented to give hatchlings more evasion than their adult and ancient pals.

[Zanon]

I guess here is a rundown of what dragons have and why an evasion boost even a dex boost would not be a bad idea for hatchlings.

Adult dragons, get access to bof3. ice breath and lightning breath.
They gain the ability to fly at 75 speed , with tech wings up to 99
They gain more health, seems some armor and str.
depending the faction they gain 20 tooth n claw, or 20 primal.

Ancient dragons gain access to be capable of rezzing once every hour.
they can achieve completing some quests up to 10.
They gain more health and 33% more armor than adults.
They gain a faster flying speed., also they can fly higher than adults.
They gain the ability to fear.
they get flameburst.

Hatchlings.
They can glide short distances.
They take full advantage of the sprint ability.
They are absolutely adorable.
They can see istaria in the bipeds perspective.

Not much going on for the poor hatchlings. Yeah yeah i know, oh well you dont have to be a hatchling you can do your rop and get the good stuff.

Well I know there are players out there who do enjoy playing a hatchling. This is not asking hatchlings to gain their grown up counterparts, but other means of survival like more evasion and dex which as you grow disappear.

This adds a challanging new way to play a dragon.

hatchlings will never get primal cast, flame burst or shield of gold among other abilities, due to their restriction they also will not be able to finish adventure ability quiest past 7.

[Sigi]

I like your ideas and how you describe the situation.

[Zanon]

Anyone has other suggestions?

I would add, why not make them accasionally purr or somthing, make them do cute things. Maybe give them a different running animation, since ancients and adults seem to be running as fast as a hatchling, well make a hatchling look like it really needs to keep up . I donno. Prob some of you guys have some other suggestions that are reasonable, does not overpower n stuff. share!

[Tullamore]

I really can't add to what's already been suggested; I can't think of anything new, and, haven't been in the game long enough to really know how difficult any changes would be, or how they would effect (if at all) the balance of the game. Having said that, I think the ideas are good; it seems logical that our smaller, hatchie bodies would be a bit more difficult to hit than our older, larger brethren.

As for the "cuteness" factor, I do try incorporating that in my role-play on Order. I'm careful to do a "deepbow" when I find myself confronted by an adult or ancient dragon...and, a moment later, I'm quite liable to bounce up and down a few times...a bright-green puppy who happens to breathe fire, I guess.

[Zanon]

I really can't add to what's already been suggested; I can't think of anything new, and, haven't been in the game long enough to really know how difficult any changes would be, or how they would effect (if at all) the balance of the game. Having said that, I think the ideas are good; it seems logical that our smaller, hatchie bodies would be a bit more difficult to hit than our older, larger brethren.

As for the "cuteness" factor, I do try incorporating that in my role-play on Order. I'm careful to do a "deepbow" when I find myself confronted by an adult or ancient dragon...and, a moment later, I'm quite liable to bounce up and down a few times...a bright-green puppy who happens to breathe fire, I guess.

I do have a mod comming out soon that changes the sounds of the hatchlings making them kinda purr when they fight and when you do slow walk. it also is audible when you turn around without running. Still working some things out but it does bring hatchlings to life, especially when there are alot around.

[Tullamore]

Ahhhhh....I can see it now....a dozen or so of us, surrounding an ancient one, softly turning and purring until it finally bellows: Okay, okay! You can all stay up and watch "Survivor - Scorpion Isles!" Just shut up!!

[Frith-Rae]

Well as with any addon, unless the other person has it installed - they won't hear/see what you are doing with the addon.

On the related note:

While I see the logic of evasion/dex being slightly higher for hatchlings due to their smaller size, I do NOT see the devs implementing anything that makes staying and playing as a hatchling any "eaasier" because its not meant to be played that way.

One could turn around and argue that baby animals are not necessarily more evasive or more dexterous than their adult counterparts because they don't have the fine motor skills annd muscle control that an adult has. A baby elephant isn't more graceful or more agile than its adult counterparts simply because it doesn't control itself as completely. Anymore than a kitten; which any cat owner knows, is not at all more agile or more capable of dodging things than a full grown cat.

"But the hatchling gets older and learns!" Yes, but its not intended gameplay for you to be level 100 and have benefits over an adult who is level 100.

Hatchlings, since day one, were meant to be WEAKER than equal level bipeds, harder to play, and slower for that fact - to adjust for the fact that the idea is you are a BABY creature. To motivate players to want to be adults and equal to bipeds(whistles) , or ancients and stronger than adults.

I see one side of this "making sense", but from the other side the logic doesn't hold true. And at the end of the day, you aren't intended to be better at anything than an adult. Because you are not intended to stay a hatchling for your game play career (same as you there are things you have to be ancient to receive, you are not intended to stay as an adult).

Just because players can choose to do so, doesn't mean the devs will reward those choices.

(Now I fully understand that even with a bonus to evasion/dex that reduces when you level and the perks overtake such an early bonus means the hatchling still will not be eqaul to an adult. And as such, such a bonus doesnt bother me. Just wanted to remind those who perhaps never knew, that hatchlings were meant to be more difficult to play than a biped due to being a baby creature. And also to address the idea of making a hatchling a more viable leveling character past its intended levels).

[Akrion]

Hatchlings, since day one, were meant to be WEAKER than equal level bipeds, harder to play, and slower for that fact - to adjust for the fact that the idea is you are a BABY creature. To motivate players to want to be adults and equal to bipeds(whistles) , or ancients and stronger than adults.

And one major glaring flaw came with this at the beginning: Hatchling's couldn't ascend. So for a while after the game released, a Hatchling is all you could be. Period. And for quite a while a hatchling has been much more powerful than a biped of equivilant level, they are in no way significantly weaker or even just weaker (More armor + GR and SS alone, I leveled Ikaron to 100 in weeks, Akrion in months, because Ikaron could do things 10-20 levels over where Akrion could only do at level or under). Design decision and intent have been terribly inconsistant over the course of Istaria's lifetime and is honestly a weak foundation for an argument because it has changed so much, there's no saying what things will be like a few years down the road.

Simple fact is, all logic states that a smaller body with an equal mental capacity is inherently more agile than a larger one.

[Zanon]

Well as with any addon, unless the other person has it installed - they won't hear/see what you are doing with the addon.

On the related note:

While I see the logic of evasion/dex being slightly higher for hatchlings due to their smaller size, I do NOT see the devs implementing anything that makes staying and playing as a hatchling any "eaasier" because its not meant to be played that way.

One could turn around and argue that baby animals are not necessarily more evasive or more dexterous than their adult counterparts because they don't have the fine motor skills annd muscle control that an adult has. A baby elephant isn't more graceful or more agile than its adult counterparts simply because it doesn't control itself as completely. Anymore than a kitten; which any cat owner knows, is not at all more agile or more capable of dodging things than a full grown cat.

"But the hatchling gets older and learns!" Yes, but its not intended gameplay for you to be level 100 and have benefits over an adult who is level 100.

Hatchlings, since day one, were meant to be WEAKER than equal level bipeds, harder to play, and slower for that fact - to adjust for the fact that the idea is you are a BABY creature. To motivate players to want to be adults and equal to bipeds(whistles) , or ancients and stronger than adults.

I see one side of this "making sense", but from the other side the logic doesn't hold true. And at the end of the day, you aren't intended to be better at anything than an adult. Because you are not intended to stay a hatchling for your game play career (same as you there are things you have to be ancient to receive, you are not intended to stay as an adult).

Just because players can choose to do so, doesn't mean the devs will reward those choices.

(Now I fully understand that even with a bonus to evasion/dex that reduces when you level and the perks overtake such an early bonus means the hatchling still will not be eqaul to an adult. And as such, such a bonus doesnt bother me. Just wanted to remind those who perhaps never knew, that hatchlings were meant to be more difficult to play than a biped due to being a baby creature. And also to address the idea of making a hatchling a more viable leveling character past its intended levels).

Let me bite.

It is the Istarian community that gave Juvinile dragons the name Hatchlings. A dragon can remain as a Juvinile (which is not the same thing as a baby kitten or elephant and such.) And be as wise as an ancient. Our characters are not Fresh out of the egg. Why in bloody heck would adult dragons sent baby hatchlings out to the battlefield. Its because they are not baby hatchlings. They are Juvinile, think teenager for once.

Juv dragons are more than capable of going on by themselves, can they be much more dexterious and evasive than adult and ancient dragons. By all means yes. The mass of an ancient, regardless how strong still makes him a huge target to hit. A Juv dragon weighing probably as much as a bull can be dexterious and avoid much better.

Yes we call them hatchlings but that was adapted on how the community called them.

We need to stop comparing rl to ingame stuff. However I will end it with this. in the medival ages a 15 year old teenager would be trained to be a soldier. keep in mind not and adult. Many 15 to 19 year olds which are considered teenagers can be much more dexterious than adult counterparts when trained correctly. I know its a dumb comparison, however there is NO lore that indicates that Juvinile dragons are learning how to walk, eat and speak. just like every biped adult that starts out in istaria they are training to fight.

A juvinile dragon chooses to become a bigger dragon by choice, they do not grow, they are frozen in time. They are even sent as emmisaries to the other races. Just because there are people who "roleplay hatchlings as little babies does not mean in game they really are.

is it not funny that dragons grow while bipeds do not grow or even age?

[Draeconis]

Let me bite.

It is the Istarian community that gave Juvinile dragons the name Hatchlings.

I don't remember Hatchlings officially called anything other than Hatchlings. I first started playing a couple of weeks after the initial release of Horizons, and my dragon was a Hatchling, not a Juvenile, until ascending to Adult.

Back on track with the thread. Hatchlings have it a far sight better now than in the past. They can do things/kill mobs that their bi-ped peers are incapable of doing solo. They don't need any more changes. If someone chooses to not RoP/ARoP, then that's their choice. They know what they're missing out on - most already have at least 1 adult/ancient already.

I've recently created a new hatchling to see the differences, and I was amazed at how easy it was to level up. It took my original dragon a couple of months to get to the point where he could RoP (once it was implemented). My newest got there in less than a week (and no, I didn't power level it - I did the available quests and ability quests).

As far as evasion goes, I have a 25 Cleric/26 ELAR that has over 350 evasion and 1200+ dex from craft. She still gets hammered by level 20 mobs like there's no tomorrow. As far as I'm concerned evasion is an illusion anyway.

[Zanon]

make a new dragon and read the books that you appear close to.

[Amerelium]

Hatchlings DO have an ability adults and ancient don't have:

You're so cute that mobs get confused.