Bill S.978 Aka "The screw you, gamers" Bill

[Frith-Rae]

Honestly I don think it will impact high-bandwidth illegal tormenting anymore than anything else they've tried to do in the last 20 years.

I am no law expert, or anything close to it. But this isn't the first "hey thats illegal stop that!" law on the books, it wont be the last. And I don't see it doing any better of a job at shutting down "underground" (some more, some less) BT sites than any other law.

I see it as politicians LOOKING like they give a crap and doing something. But in the end, it does nothing at all.

I mean people were doing this before AOL and Compuserve (sharing files - music and games and pictures and movies etc.). they've been doing this since the first "internet" was setup between universities. Its gotten more popular obviously, no one did anything about it in the early 90s because the average-joe wassnt aware of how to do it. But in the end, like any illegal activity, it won't stop the activity, just make it a little more hidden at most.

Wether you agree it should or should not be more hidden is a different topic we prolly shouldnt get into here . Just speaking in the general here.

[Frith-Rae]

Just thought I'd post this up since its on topic

http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/07/08/th...978/#continued

Now, before anyone clicks the link and has some logic-defying kneejerk reaction to "ZOMG ITS WOW DIE DIE IN A FIRE" thing, just read.

Its a law student who posts to this gamersblog, talks about law related issues and gaming in general (examples may use WoW but this isn't about WoW!). THey have a regular column, this weeks' just happens to be on topic and about what you guys are talking about.

So read from a law persons' POV about what it all means and how they feel the gaming industry *should* respond (his/her opinion of course, that part isn't fact at this point).

And don't worry, you don't have to read antyhing else related to WoW. That is the direct link to that article only - don't have to scroll through other articles or anything else related to WoW.

So put down the pitchforks and enjoy the commentary .

[Akrion]

I mean people were doing this before AOL and Compuserve (sharing files - music and games and pictures and movies etc.). they've been doing this since the first "internet" was setup between universities. Its gotten more popular obviously, no one did anything about it in the early 90s because the average-joe wassnt aware of how to do it. But in the end, like any illegal activity, it won't stop the activity, just make it a little more hidden at most.

I highly doubt people really did this very much back when a network was formed between computers, nor when these networks were merged into what we would now call the Internet. xD In the early days of the Internet 14.4kb/s was considered a high speed connection, let alone the troubles you would have getting and storing it on a computer of that era.

14.4Kb/s(bits) is 1.8 KB/s(bytes), and even a super super low quality song of 500KB would take 4 1/2 minutes assuming your connection stayed stable that entire time and didn't require you to start the whole transfer over. As for games, or video? You'd be better off just making a copy onto 30 floppy disks and sending them via mail. And movies? There's no way. Not even a super low quality movie would have even fit on most computers of the late 80's and early 90's, let alone what you would have to go through just to get them to play, assuming they even could.

[Vortura]

I highly doubt people really did this very much back when a network was formed between computers, nor when these networks were merged into what we would now call the Internet. xD In the early days of the Internet 14.4kb/s was considered a high speed connection, let alone the troubles you would have getting and storing it on a computer of that era.

14.4Kb/s(bits) is 1.8 KB/s(bytes), and even a super super low quality song of 500KB would take 4 1/2 minutes assuming your connection stayed stable that entire time and didn't require you to start the whole transfer over. As for games, or video? You'd be better off just making a copy onto 30 floppy disks and sending them via mail. And movies? There's no way. Not even a super low quality movie would have even fit on most computers of the late 80's and early 90's, let alone what you would have to go through just to get them to play, assuming they even could.

Doesn't sound like you were around in the olden days, so your ignorance can be excused.

There wasn't any music and movie sharing via computers because there was easier methods for that. Everything else was a free for all effort much like today. The file sizes were a lot smaller, less bloatware and you zipped everything.
Interrupted file transfers could be resumed if you used zmodem.

Have a read of the "Bulletin Board System" entry on Wikipedia.

[Akrion]

Doesn't sound like you were around in the olden days, so your ignorance can be excused.

There wasn't any music and movie sharing via computers because there was easier methods for that. Everything else was a free for all effort much like today. The file sizes were a lot smaller, less bloatware and you zipped everything.
Interrupted file transfers could be resumed if you used zmodem.

Have a read of the "Bulletin Board System" entry on Wikipedia.

Yeah, and I was responding to Music, Videos, Movies, and Games being transferred. So I don't see what your point is. Less bloatware? Zipped everything? Those four things I listed above can only be compressed so much, with games likely being compressed as well as they can be to begin with. And as for bloatware, only games in that list would potentially have any bloatware which for that era wouldn't have been much of a problem, yet still games could come with pretty heafty file sizes for that time. Ultima 7 with a 56k would have taken maybe 2 hours at best.

So what does that leave? People illegally transferring books? Pictures? Small to medium sized programs? Maybe operating systems. None of which I commented on. I specifically talked about the transfer of music, videos, movies and games which Frith cited. And I never suggested it wasn't possible, nor did I suggest it never happened. Just that I doubted it ever happened with what I proceeded to touch on.

[Blue Hasia]

im with vortura on this akrion. people would more than happy leave their pc on overnight to download large zipped/compressed files. ever heard of emulators?

you could get the entire NES library...that is illegal wolfinstien, doom, red alert to name a few that floated around the dial up days that people more than happy left their pc running on for days to download for free.

i remember spending 4 days once downloading tons of mods for the game total annihilation on dail up.

[Frith-Rae]

Yup, did all of the above.

It was made easier when AOL launched, there were huge numbers of "hack/warez" chatrooms that had spam bots where you just entered "123" and huge loads of zipped files would be deliverd to your inbox (yes - mostly GAMES and music and pictures, but movies were an option I just never bothered). Then you'd tell your AOL D/ler to d/l at night and you'd have literally hundreds of emails with zipped attachements you'd have to d/l to say play a game - but still it was there. (heck at the time, you did this easily with free accounts with made up CC numbers (not stolen, literally made up!) - noone cared enough to really check or try and stop you)

ANd even before that, yes, BBS and most specifically what i was referring to newsgroups (alt.pictures.tasteless anyone? LOL classic!) I got so much music and video games that way. You just had to know how to use your basic newsgroup interfaces and there were tons and tons of stuff you were downloading, but yes you COULD do it. It was much more "Underground" only because most people barely had the know-how to do an internet search (my mom thought it was just a giant encyclopedia heh), much less figure out newsgroups and FTPs and such. Of course, the game/music/movie d/l paled in comparison to the amount of XXX stuff.

(and yes, on 14.4 and 56K, I knew tons of people in college who were doing this - and yes the only practical way you could do this was to be able to leave your d/l up overnight so you could d/l 8-10 hours at a stretch.)

It wasn't until Napster that it got popular enough to start actually trying to catch people. *shrugs*

So yea, it may take a week to d/l DOOM or something, but it was still worth it compared to the cost of trying to buy all the games. You know, back when computer games cornered the market and not gaming systems ;D And you still saved 50 bucks a game (wierd that its never changed..lol).

I mean you can think it was "pointless" all you want, my point was that this has been going on for DECADES and isn't going to really stop regardless of what laws they pass. My dozens of CDs I burned off newsgroups prior to 1994, as well as the random games I still have on burned-cds from the same era (not counting those I stored in zipped forms on multiple HD at the time - why you think they were too big I don't know, but they weren't, because I stored tons of zipped stuff on my HDs, and then would put the stuff I was replacing onto zip drives! lol) are proof that it was easily accessible to anyone with half a mind to try to find it.

[Akrion]

I'd comment further but I don't want to push this thread any more off topic.

To the OP: I think this bill is absolutely pointless, silly, and will only succeed in making things even harder on people who do things the legal way and don't pirate stuff, just like what DRM succeeds in doing.

[Thicklesip]

I don't think the spirit behind the bill is bad. Trying to make it so the people behind good things we enjoy get their share of the profits isn't unreasonable.

But then the people writing it are clueless-- like, "ask a kindergartener to describe how the space shuttle program works" type of out-of-their-depth. And then you add the strong arm of people with money carefully bending all of it in their specific favor.

So: noble cause, twisted by incompetence and greed. Business as usual among the human race, ho hum!


Sooooo... anyone fired up any good letter-writing campaigns? It's not law yet, and anyone this massively out of their depth would probably be swayed by a really big herd of angry constituents.

[lightning claw]

Why dose this not surprise me,

Now it makes sense as to hackers activity's as of late hell i would be severely agitated and I am as to the news of this

Lets sum up what is currently occurring in America and around the world today

Governments being over thrown , Civil unrest at home , government living Way beyond its means , Riots in the streets , Us currency is on pace to challenge the Pea-so and loose (Reference Jp Morgen chase ) 14 trillion $ in the hole and coming up fast approaching government shutdown . Major Natural disasters from Japan to Missouri Job loss still at full force at 400 thousand per month (If you read the full report it totals up to that )

Yep I say that's TOP PRIORITY wtg Oboma good job prioritizing how to control freedom of information over the internet NOT!!!!!

Before you go off and think oh boy hear he goes again hes an Oboma hater ect

Read my tapping keyboard I don't care if your Left right Pink poke a doted or Vulcan there are much greater Priority's than how to control Freedoms of speech and information at hand hear and they need to be addressed like Last year

Example of how i think this bill should be written of your dead set on thinking its a good bill which the way its currently written is a disaster and a Industry killer

Downloading adobie master studio 5 cracking it and selling it for Personal Profits = Ya your but should be In jail

Creating something like a game music video NO not a chance for the following reasons

A. Your not making a red cent off the work your producing if anything your advertising there music as well as the company's game

B. This is how some company select candidate for jobs by there Virtual Portfolios and see how Proficient they Industry standard software

C. If this bill where to pass with current text you violate several laws , acts ,and amendments

D. You will send the Internet back to the dark ages

E. Several people make it big off of singing karaoke putting it on you-tube and getting discovered

To sum it up and with current text this blanket bill is nothing more than a Job / Industry killer which follows Oboma's train of thought since day one

[Steelclaw]

I don't think the spirit behind the bill is bad.

...

So: noble cause, twisted by incompetence and greed. Business as usual among the human race, ho hum!

I wouldn't call it a noble cause. The types of copyright violation that this bill attempts to address are already illegal -- so it's really not needed. It's just adding another mine in a legislative minefield for people to step on.

Trying to make it so the people behind good things we enjoy get their share of the profits isn't unreasonable.

I got a better idea. How about regulating the allowable size of the discrepancy between media profits and royalties paid to the artists; and the allowable difference in pay between the top and bottom of the media production totem pole?

Supporting artists isn't about combating piracy. It's about making sure they don't get shafted by their distributors.

[GlindorOcculus]

*Casts Primal Rebirth on thread*

Sorry to bring it up again but does anyone have any news on where this bill is at right now?
I'm hoping it's dead or atleast been modified to exclude video games.

[neva]

I don't vote so I don't have much say in the matter however I can see where they are coming from and where you guys are also coming from.

They are doing this because of how people love to 'steal' copyrighted material from TV and Movies and then place them on Youtube oooorrr... allow you to download them from sights.

In a part ways, I remember a bill that was debating on being passed that would have effected places like Gamestop on used game selling.

My issue is, is that the Bill from what I am hearing...
Borderlines on the amendments that were laid down, but then again, politically-- I blame Obama for all this crap, because since he has come into office he has been flipping this country all upside down.

However, again..
I don't vote. So I can't complain much. If I did vote, I wanted to vote for McCain and I was very very close to actually doing it (Heck my whole family was).

Buut, that is slightly off subject.

All you guys can do is go find a petition that stands against it and go sign that petition. People still have a voice, just sometimes you have to yell loud enough to be heard. After all, we do have the freedom to speak our minds and we do have the freedom to let it be known.

If that take that away from us, then we may as well call ourselves the next Nazis.

[Akrion]

Borderlines on the amendments that were laid down, but then again, politically-- I blame Obama for all this crap, because since he has come into office he has been flipping this country all upside down.

You must either not know or choose to ignore how Bills get passed into Law in this country, otherwise you'd realise that specifically placing blame on any President for every problem is ridiculous. The President can't just say "Oh, I like the proposition of Bill S.978, it is now a Law."

Here are the typical steps a bill must take (This is a rough approximation, I recommend researching for more specific details):

1) A Bill is created.
2) The Bill is referred to a committee and examined.
3) If acted upon, it may sometimes be referred to a subcommittee for further study and hearings.
4) 'Mark Ups' are made; that is, changes and amendments before the bill is recommended to the full committee.
5) If recommended, the full committee may now vote to recommend it to the House or Senate.
6) The Bill is voted upon, it may pass or die here as well.
7) The Bill is referred to the other chamber (e.g. the Senate will referr the bill to the House of Representatives) who may approve as recieved, reject, ignore or change the Bill.
8) If the actions significantly change the Bill, a committee is formed to reconcile the differences between the House and Senate versions. If no reconciliation can be made the legislation dies.
9) After the Bill has been approved by both House and Senate it is sent to the President. If the President approves, he will sign the Bill and it will become Law. If the President does not approve of the Bill, he will veto it.
10) If the Bill is veto'd, Congress may attempt to override the veto. If both the Senate and House pass the Bill by a 2/3 majority, the veto is overruled and the Bill becomes Law regardless.

So if you want to blame Obama for everything that's happened in this country, you must blame the everybody that came before him to allow whatever Bill to even reach his desk in the first place. And you must also take into consideration that Obama's veto of a bill could be overturned anyway by Congress.

Obama's Stimulus plan had to be approved by Congress, for example. While he proposed the Bill, Congress let it pass. Obama couldn't just say "Oh I want $787 billion to do stuff with, I shall take it."

You mention the Amendments yet you seem to know little of how America actually functions.

[Veruliyam]

Did you not pay attention to the 'passing' of the Obamacare bill?!?!?

[Akrion]

Did you not pay attention to the 'passing' of the Obamacare bill?!?!?

What's your point? I can't find anywhere that remotely suggests Obama just said "This is a law now, lol." .. If you don't like the Bill that was passed, you have more to blame than just Obama. End of story. And I'm not throwing around 'Omg Obama is so great' either, because I also recognize that people placing blame for everything on Bush are also wrong. The blame for pretty much any political action rests on the shoulders of many, not the shoulders of one.

[lightning claw]

What's your point? I can't find anywhere that remotely suggests Obama just said "This is a law now, lol." .. If you don't like the Bill that was passed, you have more to blame than just Obama. End of story. And I'm not throwing around 'Omg Obama is so great' either, because I also recognize that people placing blame for everything on Bush are also wrong. The blame for pretty much any political action rests on the shoulders of many, not the shoulders of one.

WHAT!!!!

Ok akrion not to be offensive but you must be an obomanite where oboma cant do any thing wrong

Open your eyes man ! Gorge sorrows owns Oboma and oboma Use to own Congress Oboma care is Just 1 instance of how he did this he also is using the war powers act Illegally !!! amongst other things

I have been vocal on the forms about oboma and bush I am NOT anti government I how ever am Anti Idiocy Oboma his cabinet and congress both republican and democrat have committed imo criminal acts of stupidity Pm me and ill send you some research on the subject

[Akrion]

WHAT!!!!

Ok akrion not to be offensive but you must be an obomanite where oboma cant do any thing wrong

Open your eyes man ! Gorge sorrows owns Oboma and oboma Use to own Congress Oboma care is Just 1 instance of how he did this he also is using the war powers act Illegally !!! amongst other things

I have been vocal on the forms about oboma and bush I am NOT anti government I how ever am Anti Idiocy Oboma his cabinet and congress both republican and democrat have committed imo criminal acts of stupidity Pm me and ill send you some research on the subject

Really, the ironies within that post..

I'm not going to go any further on this as I've more than stated what I meant to, and don't believe I can be any clearer. This thread is in danger of skidding way off topic so I'll not be pushing it any further. May even be beneficial to just delete this post. :B I dunno. Back to non-forum stuff! *woosh*

[Frith-Rae]

Yes - lets stop please. This has nothign to do with obama or dems or repubs or anything BUT THE BILL ITSELF.

Assuming this isnt already going to get locked down - can we stop now with the political tirades and focus on the bill itself and wether or not it got anywhere (I have no clue myself...havent heard anything either way..).

Go to other forums if you want to rant about politics/obama/bush/anyone/anything associated with that. That is prohibitly not allowed here...

[Steelclaw]

No action since June.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-s978/show