Talk to the Team: Metals

[AmonGwareth]

Wanted to run a couple questions by you all, get your feedback. Please keep on-topic and to the specific questions.

1. We have considered removing the second metal from the creation of Cobalt, Mithril and Adamantium Bars? So, Cobalt and Mithril Bars would no longer require Nickel, and Adamantium would no longer require Mithril. What is your opinion on this?

2. How would you feel if Copper&Tin Ore was renamed to Bronze Ore?

3. Are there any other core materials (other than food) that seem overly complex to you that you might change if given the chance?

[Knossos]

I recall when alloys were introduced, hated them from start and would welcome their demise.

As for copper and tin ore, Just today yet another new player was confused over the copper and tin ore to bronze bar process, and yes I would welcome renaming to bronze ore too, as making this change would decrease new player frustration.

Knossos

[jerk-o]

What about steel? Would that still need two resources?

[AmonGwareth]

Valornyx, my mistake. And thank you.

Jerk-o, Steel will take some looking into since there isn't a base ore for it. But, we'll see what we can do about it if we move forward with this idea.

[C`gan]

1. I wouldn't mind the loss of the second ore to make bars. As for steel, I think I have an answer for you, Amon. Back in the WAY olden days (I'm sure you'll remember, when David was the head of AE), we had steel golems which roamed the northern pass between Chiconis and Harton Valley before Feladan was reclaimed. I don't think there was ever a particular single ore node for it as the formula required iron bars and nickel bars to make steel bars.

2. Since advanced high school science is no longer teaching what alloys use which metals, it'd probably be a good idea to change the name.

3. Dragon lairshaping resources for maelstones and flowstones. I know, they're supposed to be the higher side of each tier, but given that they require 3 resources rather than 2, must it also be that it takes 20 of each intermediate? By doing the math, it's 2 raw resources per bar/brick, plus 1 raw resource more for dragon intermediate (all times 40) plus 2 raw resources per brick/bar (times 40) to get 1 placeable unit at optimal. So, that makes, for example, 80 ore (40 bars, 20 intermediates) + 40 raw essence (20 intermediates) + 80 slabs (40 bricks) = 1 unit lairshaping (2 lairshaping maelstones/flowstones). That's 200 raw resources assuming the metal isn't an alloy. By comparison, a biped upper tier unit is only 80 raw resources (assuming not an alloy). What I propose would be to take the final lairshaping product and cut the amout of resources of the maelstones and flowstones in 1/2 or 3/4 (10:1 per piece or 15:1 per piece instead of 20:1).The extra complexity is in the use of multiple resources and shouldn't be overpowered by higher quantities as well.

[Sereamha]

Depends. The exp on alloys was already nerfed severely. I assume that taking the second item needed out would lower metal exp down as well? I personally didn't mind the need for 2 resources since the exp was worth the extra time....but...with the nerf in exp, I figure it is NOT worth it any more.

I would much rather see the exp bumped back to what it was and the 2 resources kept. As for bronze ore? Sure, rename it if it helps newbies :)

[Dragonboy]

Wanted to run a couple questions by you all, get your feedback. Please keep on-topic and to the specific questions.

1. We have considered removing the second metal from the creation of Cobalt, Mithril and Adamantium Bars? So, Cobalt and Mithril Bars would no longer require Nickel, and Adamantium would no longer require Mithril. What is your opinion on this?

2. How would you feel if Copper&Tin Ore was renamed to Bronze Ore?

3. Are there any other core materials (other than food) that seem overly complex to you that you might change if given the chance?

1. I have a double feeling about this. I don’t like the game getting easier, but on the other hand I wonder why it was made more annoying then the other resources to begin with. All in all I would still welcome the change when it comes.

2. I am used to it and not bothered by this, if others prefer bronze ore then change it, if not leave it.

3. Personally I have no real annoyance for crafting other then it takes a long time to collect and walk from node to node.

3. Dragon lairshaping resources for maelstones and flowstones. I know, they're supposed to be the higher side of each tier, but given that they require 3 resources rather than 2, must it also be that it takes 20 of each intermediate? By doing the math, it's 2 raw resources per bar/brick, plus 1 raw resource more for dragon intermediate (all times 40) plus 2 raw resources per brick/bar (times 40) to get 1 placeable unit at optimal. So, that makes, for example, 80 ore (40 bars, 20 intermediates) + 40 raw essence (20 intermediates) + 80 slabs (40 bricks) = 1 unit lairshaping (2 lairshaping maelstones/flowstones). That's 200 raw resources assuming the metal isn't an alloy. By comparison, a biped upper tier unit is only 80 raw resources (assuming not an alloy). What I propose would be to take the final lairshaping product and cut the amout of resources of the maelstones and flowstones in 1/2 or 3/4 (10:1 per piece or 15:1 per piece instead of 20:1).The extra complexity is in the use of multiple resources and shouldn't be overpowered by higher quantities as well.

C’gan has a big point that Lairshaping could be seen as complex… However with the change proposed in nr.1 (the whole alloy thing removed) that would require a lot less work to gather materials for the Maelstones, Flowstones (and not to forget Excoriations and Imbued Bars).. So having to dig more then a Biped is not a bad thing… A biped is cursed with having to fill silo after silo with the same stuff. A little complexity can be welcoming.

[Valornyx]

So, Cobalt and Mithril Bars would no longer require Nickel, and Adamantium would no longer require Mithril.

Mithril requires platinum rather than nickel .. (just so no one else feels the need to jump on this detail).

I remember when metals were changed and there was a huge hue and cry - and a lot of people threatened to leave - whether they actually did or not - I don't rightly remember ..

Personally I have gotten used to the multi-ore bars and have learned how to effectively make them - so see no real reason to make them easier again - however - I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with this.

For me - the stayers in Istaria are going to stay - almost no matter how much more complex or involved the crafting is (although I'm not asking for more difficulties - heh) .. people build T6 dragon lairs - which is just insane in my book. someone who will leave or stay over multi-ore metals - will probably leave or stay for other more important reasons to them.

There is at least one location where there is a ML of each ore required for the multi-metals .. and people are also accustomed to working with crafts like alchemy and so forth that require multiple resources (silos) to work effectively.

I will not complain if you make the metals easier - but I see no real need to change them either.

[Sigi]

I totally agree with Valornyx.

[Shian]

To just go on what others have said,
1. removing the second metal would truly be a god send. Making bars takes stupid amounts of time to make. However, the XP is good and is great for leveling an alt if you already have a maxed character that can gather it.
If you don't have a maxed alt, metal is quite brutal in that you can process it easy enough, but don't have enough gathering to strip it out of the ground at all if you don't have a twinked character.

While it would make exp gain much slower, this would make lairshaping much easier by putting ease on the already taxing amount of silos lairshaping requires. I'd support this whole heartily.

2. Yes please! Rename it so it is not confusing.

[Sigi]

@1
Why are you considering that? What was the reason for putting in the second material in the first place and what made that reason invalid now?

@2
Bit weird. Bronze ore. But what's in a name...

@3
Perhaps some overly simple things should be made more complex?

[Shian]

@1
Why are you considering that? What was the reason for putting in the second material in the first place and what made that reason invalid now?

I believe the answers would be:
Ask the first owners
and because it's something this company wants to do. They weren't the ones that developed this game, but they are the ones trying to improve it.

[Orinshade]

I would have to say I agree with Valornyx. As for renameing Copper and Tin, While it would be a Dumbing down, I don't see any harm in it. but be ready for the people that do know metals yelling. "That's not right, there is no such thing as bronze Ore" hehe......

[Grodec]

The best scenario would have been dual smelt never instituted. But now that I am done craft levelling. And almost done with my plots, it doesnt really matter if it is changed. But hey Im all for an easy button. Would definetely make crafting metal more enjoyable. More bearable would probably be a more appropriate term. Grodec

[AmonGwareth]

Sigi, I don't know why the alloy system was added. I wasn't part of the design team at that point unfortunately. However, to clarify the reasoning behind the proposal:

The overall goal is always to make the game more fun and less tedious. The overall process of creating items from ground to sword or from ground to House is already pretty tedious and complex and the alloy system only makes it more so. Removing the alloy metals allows for less tedium, more building and item creation, and more fun.

There are still have places in the game with quite a bit of complexity and depth, such as Confectioner, Lairshaper, Scrolls for Scholar, and Keys and Cargo Disks for Tinkerer. In the future it is a safe bet that we'll be adding more complexity to new items that come out as well as to any school revamps we undertake. We feel that the complexity and depth should be centered on the finished product rather than the early stages. because the complexity and depth results in more satisfaction than you get by simply making mithril bars out of two different types of ore.

It is because of this that we feel that the alloys to make metal bars don't really add any fun or value to the game and is why we are considering the change. Hope that helps.

[Chasing]

I can't decide whether this change would be a good thing or not.

Renaming copper and tin ore to bronze ore makes sense.

Removing the alloys, I don't know

[Sigi]

@Amon
ok, thanks for clarifying. Although I don't think it is more or less fun to make bars using one or two kind of ore - is making bronze more fun than making cobalt? I can see the less tedious part.

To clarify my @3 in post #12
I was thinking it would be nice to make metal and stone tools with wooden handles and something like that for weapons and then give them a little bonus in relation to normal one resource ones.

[Yarsgo]

Thanks for putting this out there, Amon...

1. Maybe consider making the 2ndary metals copper/tin or iron (would keep us from setting aside an extra silo, too :) ) Another consideration might be taking nickel completely out of the game (this addresses jerko-s idea as well (which i personally like).

2. Bronze ore shouldn't be too confusing of a change - and might work easier in the minds of a noob, anyway (ref: knossos' above mentioned experience)

3. Ask me again in a month after I'm back into the swing of things here ;)

[Khalon]

1. Yes, please eliminate alloys! I say this in spite of having gotten my biped only about 2/3 done cranking through craft schools on mithril bars hehe.
2. Yes, I'm totally in favor of anything that reduces frustration for new/young players. This amazing game needs as many players staying as we can manage :). Somehow Lightningclaw's idea of calling both the ore & product "copper" rather than "bronze" sounds better than the alternative. I guess the idea of "bronze ore" just sounds a little too silly :P.
3. Leatherworking is a minor annoyance. I also agree that the demand for leather goods is low enough that it probably doesn't merit developer time at the moment.

Many thanks Amon for all that you & the rest of the team do!

[Chasing]

*goes even more off topic :P*

To chime in on the the theme of lairshaping resources.

I found T1 and T2 the worst tiers to complete as the resources are spread out and in difficult to reach positions sometimes. Ironically from T3 upwards they are much easier to gather.

For example

• A community lair in parsinia that you can only reach by flying).
• Excluding NT, the gems in kion volcano are miles away from a town so you have to drag your disc a long way as a hatchie.
• No viridian crystals or crystalshaper on NT (I remember crystals being on NT during beta of lairs). Also there is that community lair in NT that is empty, would be useful to redesign it to give new players a taste of what lairs are really like.
• No community crystalshaper on genevia island
• ?Are there dim wisps on genevia island? Can't remember
• Only one good spot for silver by the silver golems
• No close location for T2 gems and T2 Azulyte for making lattices (with a community machine)
• No pale wisps near to Slate Crest, Slate Hills or Snowfall (although there is AI)

Additionally if I remember correctly, the lairshaper school gets more xp than a biped craft school per created/placed end product to compensate for the additional amount of subcomponents needed to create the final pieces.