what I see is (RoP/ARoP)

[LOVWYRM]

that the lower the requirements for RoP/ARoP, the easier it is to get there:

the faster the player(S) leave the game.

I do not want to make too much words about it, cause it`s been discussed
on this forum many times.
Its just what I can see atm.
What? You want me to make transmutation scales?
What? You cant even GATHER t6 gems?
You want me to make you full teched lvl 100 scale set and pay for it???
NO NO NO

The new low requirements produce an army of (noobish) dragons who, after the`ve achieved "all there is"- get bored easily and leave the game- a few month after starting.
And frustrated vets who spend precious ingame time in teaching and helping.

I know- we always had that..*being a frustrated vet*

*rant end*

[Dhalin]

I don't fault RoP/ARoP with this.

The "vets" as you put it, are older people who are used to older-style MMORPGs. They are used to doing the same repetitive action over and over and over again, the EQ-era players who were used to having to group up to kill anything whatsoever, players who were used to crafting thousands of items for one level, spending dozens of hours doing so.

However, that was nearly ten years ago.

Technology, the Internet, and people adapt. They change.

Gone are the days where newer players accepted a "do this a thousand times over and over again". Modern MMORPGs give you a much more variety of gameplay, the games flow faster and smoother, the combat is much more refined, and crafting, the one thing Istaria advertises that is so great, tends to be more "no nonsense".

A newer player who comes to Istaria is likely to get bored quickly unless they are from the older generation who just hasn't tried this game yet. Have you played any of the other modern MMORPGs?

Try one and you'll see why players don't stick around in Istaria for long. I don't fault VI -- they took what they have and they tried their best to improve it, but they can only do so much with the game's engine. It isn't VI's fault. In fact, Istaria has done extremely well considering what they've had to work with, and its history (companies who have had it, floundering and reselling). Any other MMORPG under these circumstances would have died and went belly-up.

Istaria survived because of its veterans and die-hard (no offense meant!) fans. RoP/ARoP isn't causing players to leave. I think a good number of these players would have left sooner if they were not able to get RoP/ARoP done under the old system.

If you really want to find out why Istaria isn't doing very well with newer players, try a modern MMORPG's free trial just to see how the game plays. Rift, WoW, etc. Try one. Note how smooth the combat flows. Note how the crafting system works. Note all of the tiny (but huge) improvements the UI has.

I'm not saying this to insult Istaria; I'm merely trying to offer some insight as to what goes on in a younger player's mind who comes here after playing one of those newer modern games. They are used to the "modern" model of MMORPGs; Istaria is still living back in the Post-EQ days, except for some improvements. Those improvements are likely some of the only things keeping it alive today, but it still isn't enough to keep *new* players interested for long, if they had been going to other MMORPGs in the past.

Some will stay in Istaria for the fact they can play a dragon (this is one of my few reasons I'm still here), others will say "I woulda stayed, but...." and their reasons?

1). "....but the game is too repetitive, and there's not much for endgame."
2). "....but there's no PvP at all" (I don't like PvP myself, but it tends to be popular)
3). "....but there isn't much to Do but go after bugged/overpowered mobs."
4). "....but the game just looks so old and outdated, it barely looks better than EQ!"

etc etc etc.

So, tl;dr: RoP/ARoP isn't killing Istaria. Istaria's sheer age and the evolution of the modern MMORPG is doing that. Just like in nature, you evolve to keep up with your peers, or you die off.

[Peaches]

Been there did that. Wow, not to my liking, when you have kiddies playing and destroying the game. Where ones sexual preference dominates the chat channels. Its what you had that counted the most and if you had more than others, well golly jee, that made you better than most.

Ultima Online...not a bad game, but made the mistake of making the game require that you group, no choice about it, and kiddies often ruined that. PVP was a joke in the beginning, so much so , that they created two shards within one world, one pvp and one non pvp. Those that did pvp ended up running out of players to kill, so they came to the non pvp world and griefed anyone they could. I did last 12 years though.

Istaria? Well, now thats right up my alley. The crafting system kicks some serious butt here. And the folks , on the whole, rock. But something happened. Seems that new players that come in, want nothing more than to be power leveled and that ain't good. They leave when they dont get what they want. The elders that tried to help them are now left holding the bag, why ?


Thats my summation.

[LOVWYRM]

Dhalin, thank you for the time you invested in your answer.

There is indeed not much from what you`ve said I would or could contradict.
And that does not mean that`s good or bad or sad- its just fact.

Istaria is alife- and will be- cause there always will be vets (ingame or rl)
who look exactly for what Istaria has to offer.
(btw-I played èm all-or at least tried èm)

Its still my opinion, that requirements should not be that low-
every month a player continues to pay is good money for our game.
And here I disgree with you: folks will not leave earlier if RoP/AroP is harder.
This is why they play a drag: To make it able to fly, to play in first dragon leaque. They leave when this is done- and there seems to be nothing left to do, cause they do not know enough about the game to continue with the dragon- career.

[LOVWYRM]

So true peaches- thank you for getting to the point!

see- 2 sides of the medal..

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

I've always thought (well, for the 7+ months that I've been in Istaria ) that there was already a perfect "starting point" for RoP in-game: the final, level-50 Tempered Scale. Once a hatchling earns that Scale, they'd earned the "right" to attempt the RoP; I set that personal goal for myself fairly early on, and, I think it was the right way for me to go...dunno that I'd advocate it being enforced in any way, but, it just seems to be a natural trigger.

As for the RoP itself, I'd prefer it being at least the way it was when I went through it: possible, for a hatchling at 50/50 to do some solo, but, other parts absolutely requiring the hatchling to work with adults/ancients. To my mind, this not only makes the RoP more "valuable" to the hatchling (they've earned something), but, reinforces the tradition of community among Dragons.

Perhaps, with the revival of the Dragon Academy, this can be done by the community itself, without any requirement of changing the gamel

[AguaRush]

I definitely see what you mean here lov. I posted my rant not long ago as well, so I'm sure others know how i feel about it.
while peaches and Dhalin makes good points as well.
but i would also argue, while istaria does have its repetitive parts. Id say newer MMOs are WORSE. You don't even have to READ the quest to know what to do, they high light areas in yellow, kill x amount of this, go loot this. its the SAME with each race/character, just in different areas with slightly different mobs. and its either quest, or dungeon, or pvp. I like other games don't get me wrong, but some how istaria always manages to keep my attention.

but in conclusion i guess,
i agree with lov that the dragons "end game" which id argue most (not ALL) but most, new players see as FLIGHT. comes too quickly. and most (not ALL) are demanding of it and want it to be sooner and sooner. Pushing to see how early they can get it, i wouldn't be surprised if a level 20 adult was flying around soon. and honestly getting to level 20 is not hard. The quests in NT take you to at least level 12, and then in Kion pretty much up to 20 because the mobs are hard.

Anyhow, im rambling.

/grumpy veteran :P

[Finkledbody]

OP: I agree to some extent. Giving the hatchies the ability to complete the RoP in under 14 days doesn't leave enough meat on the bone. But again, if we don't allow them that ability. Than they might not ever experience flight, and may no one day return.

As for the RoP itself, I'd prefer it being at least the way it was when I went through it: possible, for a hatchling at 50/50 to do some solo, but, other parts absolutely requiring the hatchling to work with adults/ancients. To my mind, this not only makes the RoP more "valuable" to the hatchling (they've earned something), but, reinforces the tradition of community among Dragons.

I did the Lunus RoP a week or so ago.. Have you done it since they redid it?

No, cause if you did you wouldn't of made this statement

The RoP as it stands now, is time consuming, flows smoothly, and gives in great detail (imo) the history the the dragons. There are many parts across the RoP that can be soloed and other parts that need a group. This is my opinion is the key to what everyones been asking.. People need to realize that, this is the best of both worlds. The RoP even says it in the text.. It very clearly states that throughout the RoP, you will need help on some parts, and others parts can be soloed.

I'd really like for a lot of you older players, that have had your dragons for a few years, make a new dragon and do the RoP. You'll find its alot better than ya'll are making it out to be. More time consuming than you think. The story is rich in history and details. The RoP as it stands now brings you to many key parts of the world. Introducing the newbies to some of the the best in Istaria.


Just because you already know where everything is to complete it.. Doesnt' make it easy. The newbies don't. Lets remember that.

[starlight]

Granted i have not been on a RoP since then changes to it but that could be partially due to my work schedule and also in a more IC sense my char just feels still that doing and completing the RoP at the current bare minimal requires means the RoP was basically done for them and to Her no sense of prid or accomplishment and can not physically help any hatchling doing the rites before the lv 40 mark. I am not saying the player HAS to wait to lv 50 and get the hatchling only scales but its also a matter of pride knowing that they worked for something that can only be obtained while a hatchling. without knowing all the details i stand by the current requirements for the RoP and the ARoP

[Morinare_Blackclaw]

Well, this "older" dragon has only been in the game for 7 months, but, you're still correct that I have not gone through the new and improved RoP; once playing Morinare becomes boring (and, I don't see that happening anytime soon...having much too much fun!), I will make another hatchling and see for myself.

Your comments, though, do make me glad, and I mean that. From some of the comments I've read, it seemed that quite a bit was made much easier.

OP: I agree to some extent. Giving the hatchies the ability to complete the RoP in under 14 days doesn't leave enough meat on the bone. But again, if we don't allow them that ability. Than they might not ever experience flight, and may no one day return.



I did the Lunus RoP a week or so ago.. Have you done it since they redid it?

No, cause if you did you wouldn't of made this statement

The RoP as it stands now, is time consuming, flows smoothly, and gives in great detail (imo) the history the the dragons. There are many parts across the RoP that can be soloed and other parts that need a group. This is my opinion is the key to what everyones been asking.. People need to realize that, this is the best of both worlds. The RoP even says it in the text.. It very clearly states that throughout the RoP, you will need help on some parts, and others parts can be soloed.

I'd really like for a lot of you older players, that have had your dragons for a few years, make a new dragon and do the RoP. You'll find its alot better than ya'll are making it out to be. More time consuming than you think. The story is rich in history and details. The RoP as it stands now brings you to many key parts of the world. Introducing the newbies to some of the the best in Istaria.


Just because you already know where everything is to complete it.. Doesnt' make it easy. The newbies don't. Lets remember that.

[Dhalin]

Been there did that. Wow, not to my liking, when you have kiddies playing and destroying the game. Where ones sexual preference dominates the chat channels. Its what you had that counted the most and if you had more than others, well golly jee, that made you better than most.

Can't fault the game for its playerbase. Yes, the players in WoW leave something to be desired, but then... I guess I'm the more loner-type. I usually turn the chat channels off and block /yells. So, very rarely do I have a 'bad experience' when dealing with another player in the game.

And besides, the actual players aren't really the topic of discussion anyways -- we're comparing new player experience and what keeps players, playing.

WoW does a very good job at grabbing you as soon as you log on for the very first time, and it does a good job and giving you reasons to continue playing.

The only thing I've ever heard in this thread (or any thread here in Istarian Forums) that makes players NOT play WoW, is purely Playerbase fault. That means the game itself is actually pretty good, if only it weren't for the bad players everywhere. But then, that's what you get -- when you have a couple dozen apples, you might find one rotten one here and there. If you go out and get several thousand apples, and you'll have a whole crate of rotten apples.

Ultima Online...not a bad game, but made the mistake of making the game require that you group, no choice about it, and kiddies often ruined that.

FFXI made the same mistake, and just within the last year or so, they tried to turn around and undo it, but too little too late; the players who got fed up with needing a group for every freaking thing in the game had already quit and to re-sub, well, they were horribly behind while the die-hard fans were max level and enjoying Endgame. Very little incentive for anyone to re-sub. Last I heard it is fading, quite definitely.

PVP was a joke in the beginning, so much so , that they created two shards within one world, one pvp and one non pvp. Those that did pvp ended up running out of players to kill, so they came to the non pvp world and griefed anyone they could. I did last 12 years though.

Non-consentual World PvP is always a mistake IMO. People will find every way they can to grief fellow players just for the sake of griefing. It is sad that people like that have nothing else better to do with their time.

Istaria? Well, now thats right up my alley. The crafting system kicks some serious butt here.

The crafting system is... unique, I'll admit that. I just wish it was a little less repetitive. About the 3rd, 4th, 5th hour you've been digging 1s and 2s of Bronze Ore, you tend to get tired of it. Or, at least I do. I dunno how I managed to get my dragon up past it. Probably talking to my GF; who no longer plays Istaria.

And the folks , on the whole, rock. But something happened. Seems that new players that come in, want nothing more than to be power leveled and that ain't good. They leave when they dont get what they want. The elders that tried to help them are now left holding the bag, why ?

Newer players don't like spending hour after hour after hour doing the same thing over and over and over again when other MMORPGs offer a lot more variety of play. Time = Money, and when someone logs onto a game, they expect to have fun, not to have their patience tested.

Digging up an inventory full of ore/flax/whatever and taking it back to the processing machines might be fun the first 5 times you do it, but 500 times later you end up just wanting to shoot yourself.

But... if you're a biped... uh... you don't really have a choice. You can use Refurb quartermaster gear, but that is only good until what, 11? 20? Then you need t2 stuff and your craft level is still back on 0. You can beg for someone to make you stuff, but you've nothing to offer in return. Or, you can stop adventuring and enjoy double-digit hours of watching your character dig dig dig dig dig.

Edit: And what about new players who choose to play Bipeds? RoP/ARoP has nothing to do with biped players. Making RoP easier isn't going to change a biped's decision whether or not to keep playing, or are you saying dragons is the only thing drawing new players in? It might be the majority, but surely not the only draw?

[Chasing]

Either make the ROP have a minimum of a 30 days age requirement

or

Make the non-human trial 30 days instead of 14 days.

(Or do both.....)

Need to break the cycle of ppl playing a trial account, super speed leveling to complete ROP before they have to pay any money.

[Dhalin]

Either make the ROP have a minimum of a 30 days age requirement

or

Make the non-human trial 30 days instead of 14 days.

(Or do both.....)

Need to break the cycle of ppl playing a trial account, super speed leveling to complete ROP before they have to pay any money.

That, I agree with.

One shouldn't be able to do RoP without upgrading to a paid account and paying for at least a month's time.

A 30-day requirement for RoP sounds fair and reasonable and might give the players some incentive to slow down, unless they really powerlevel to 30 just to wait several days before they can even do RoP lol.

[Finkledbody]

Can we just lock RoP threads from now on? I honostly dont' see anything productive being said in this thread.... Just alot of

This should be it
Take this away
Make these people so they can't
other games are better
to repetitive....


Can you all please just hush

Ya like it? Play it

Ya don't like it? /Ragequit

[Sigi]

This should be it
Take this away
Make these people so they can't
other games are better
to repetitive....


Can you all please just hush

Ya like it? Play it

Ya don't like it? /Ragequit

Supermod, can I quote you on this at almost all threads?

[LOVWYRM]

Can you all please just hush

Please_you`re kidding?

Ya like it? Play it

/ read this thread and post here/

Ya don't like it? /Ragequit

Do not read or post in this thread

..............

[Sigi]

Love, I agree with you
On your first post and on the purple one

[LungTien Temeraire]

A game's forum is normally meant to discuss about the game and related topics, right? including what players would like to improve and change.

[Dhalin]

Can we just lock RoP threads from now on? I honostly dont' see anything productive being said in this thread.... Just alot of

This should be it
Take this away
Make these people so they can't
other games are better
to repetitive....


Can you all please just hush

Ya like it? Play it

Ya don't like it? /Ragequit

Nobody is forcing you to post, or even read these threads. It was very clearly marked.

Why do people insist on trying to tell other people what they may or may not talk about?

[Mimir]

Dhalin, thank you for the time you invested in your answer.

There is indeed not much from what you`ve said I would or could contradict.
And that does not mean that`s good or bad or sad- its just fact.

Istaria is alife- and will be- cause there always will be vets (ingame or rl)
who look exactly for what Istaria has to offer.
(btw-I played èm all-or at least tried èm)

Its still my opinion, that requirements should not be that low-
every month a player continues to pay is good money for our game.
And here I disgree with you: folks will not leave earlier if RoP/AroP is harder.
This is why they play a drag: To make it able to fly, to play in first dragon leaque. They leave when this is done- and there seems to be nothing left to do, cause they do not know enough about the game to continue with the dragon- career.

I agree.

I have returned rather recently and many of the changes in game are welcomed and well done.

Although I have not looked into the new requirements for the Dragon advancement, I do see many new(ish) players who are Adult and Ancient that really have no clue what to do in game.

These dragons have the minimum required adventure level to advance to either adult or ancient but have such a low crafting level that they can not do the crafting part of the quest on their own. This is not necessarily a bad thing but more an observation.

I had, after first returning made quite a few items for these strangely high level dragons that had no skills nor knowledge of the game. I noticed a trend and it looked like (to me) I was singled out as an easy mark for making/digging the items for these players. I did this happily at first just because I was back in game. But... it quickly grew tiresome. I wanted to do MY quests, build MY lair, and explore the changes that had been done to the game, I was doing all of their playing and none of mine.

What to do? I tried going into invisible mode as Dhalin did. But this really isn't the way I think "I" should play a MMO. So I just started refusing to assist, and this is not a good solution either as some of these players may have plans on staying for the long run.

I'm not sure what the answer should be but I don't think handing new players the exact thing us "Old timers" worked so hard for is the answer.

Sorry if that sounds grumpy.