Talk to the Team: Plot Repricing

[Velea]

This time around it is our intention to both simplify and standardize plot prices so that the cost of buying a plot is predictable to the average player.

We aren't prepared right now to share that formula with you, as it is still being tweaked a bit, but in general the price of all plots would be much lower than what it was with the last revamp. This means plots would be cheaper to purchase, which we think is a good thing.

The price of your plot would depend much more heavily on the size of the plot and the tier of nearby resources than on proximity to portals.

In addition, we are considering including guild plots in this repricing and wanted to get your feedback before we did so. As you know, right now when you purchase a guild plot, it costs a great deal "up front" to do so, but then the plots within the community are all just 1 silver. Were we to include guild sub-plots in this repriced structure, the cost of the plot would vary based on the size of the plot. All sub-lots in a community would be considered T1 for the purposes of repricing, so they still would remain inexpensive to purchase, just not the 1 silver which they currently are. Master plot prices would also change, but again, most would be lower than they are presently.

While we have our reasons for doing so, we'd like to get your thoughts and feedback on this proposal. As always, this is at this stage just a proposed project and no promises are being made or implied, and insert all the usual disclaimers about keeping the thread on topic.

[LOVWYRM]

hhmm.. expensive plots has been the only money sink left ingame..
and the exsisting pricing of guildplots was fine in my eyes- for several reasons.

On the other hand- it will not ruin or save our economy if you make new prices.

I am kinda unemotional concerning this issue.

[Shian]

hhmm.. expensive plots has been the only money sink left ingame..
and the exsisting pricing of guildplots was fine in my eyes- for several reasons.

On the other hand- it will not ruin or save our economy if you make new prices.

I am kinda unemotional concerning this issue.

I agree with this.

[Chasing]

Can't see any reason why not to.

I don't think there will be a big upsurge in plot purchasing however. All the largest, easy to reach plots (next to resources etc) are already taken [on chaos].

The repricing will just uplift the cost of already owned plots.

If you want to incentivise it, create some new plots above 60x60 close to resource fields and/or portals

Guild master plots are a null point. Again the large guild communities are already owned.

[Gimthen]

Re-pricing of plots is a good idea as there are very strange discrepancies out there, such as a 138*52 for 1g680s and a 137*51 next to it for 4g and a bit.

However with the re-pricing, it is my view that people who worked for finding their money, should not loose out in the re-pricing. If by lowering the prices, a compensation for those that paid more (than the new price) could be found then that would be appreciated. Not every player has endless amount of money and is often still in the process of levelling and buying their vault, forms, etc from trainers or other places.

I fully understand and would agree with looking at resources as a benchmark, but portals should still play a role as there are a lot of plots (especially guild plots) which are on –what I call- plot islands and no resources nearby. However, I believe it is not just the pricing of plots that prevents them being built, but the size of them as well. The 40*50ish (even next to resources) and slightly above plot are all empty and surely it isn`t just the cost of them that would be the problem? Whilst i am not sure what the ideal size is , it would be worth knowing what the community thinks and ideal medium plot size is for people to live and work on.

[Daulnay]

The pricing structure seems to be fine for the largest plots, but as Gimthen pointed out, the smaller plots are severely over-priced.

Most of the players have been in the game for years, and have plenty of money to spend on plots. If they want a plot to build on, money isn't constraining them. The only thing holding them back is finding a plot that they like, and size is the main factor. (And perhaps the real-world cost of an account that enables plot purchasing.)

The rest of the players are constrained by money. It's clear from the buying patterns that people don't consider the smaller plots to be worth the money. In order to be attractive to newer players, the smaller plots have to be *much* less expensive. If this is your goal for the repricing, I'm all for it!

[Finkledbody]

However with the re-pricing, it is my view that people who worked for finding their money, should not loose out in the re-pricing. If by lowering the prices, a compensation for those that paid more (than the new price) could be found then that would be appreciated. Not every player has endless amount of money and is often still in the process of levelling and buying their vault, forms, etc from trainers or other places.

Agreed
I've spoke about this a few times.
My biggest problem is this... Given that a price change did indeed go live, i would ultimately get burned harder then anyone else. I have 30+ gold invested in two plots. Any change in prices would be a unjustified and ultimately, a devastating blow to me; and also, be disappointing to those that lost anything at all. This coin has taken real life time to earn!!

What if I wanted to sell my plot?

"Purchased 18.2g... Repriced at 4-8g.." I go to sell the plot back to the community and to my surprise, wtf?!?! I just lost a 12+gold?! No thanks! This wont be tolerated at any level. If reprices happen, compensation must take place equal to that of the original pricing.

You want lots to be a money sink? Consider taxes. 1% of the plot price per month property tax. 1s per month per silo. 2s per month per shop. 1s per month per tier for a house. 1% of the hire price per month for pawns, vault keepers, consigners. Give the people a reason to get uot there and raise some cash. It works in the real world.

No Thanks. Sounds cool, but worst idea ever... This wouldnt' go well with most, and absolutely wouldn't go well with me, brings a sour taste to my mouth.

[Peylor]

Can't see any reason why not to.

I don't think there will be a big upsurge in plot purchasing however. All the largest, easy to reach plots (next to resources etc) are already taken [on chaos].

The repricing will just uplift the cost of already owned plots.

If you want to incentivise it, create some new plots above 60x60 close to resource fields and/or portals

Guild master plots are a null point. Again the large guild communities are already owned.

im with him on this. But if your looking for somthing to do then lower the prices i guess I for done dont think its will help or hert.

[Steelclaw]

While I'm not proposing anything in particular, I feel some observations from my experience could provide some additional points to consider (mostly provided for the players discussing here, rather than directed at Velea).

As a bit of background, I'm largely to blame for the pricing you see on the shards now. (So, now you know where to send your hate mail. :p) The intent was to create a distribution of plot prices that somewhat mimicked the distribution of player coin -- "a plot for everyone", so to speak.

To do this, the plot pricing algorithm incorporated the plot size, distance to landing pads and teleport gates, and where the gates went. Gates that went to racial cities imparted a higher value than the ones that went to guild communities, for example.

In creating a plot distribution that varied in price as much as player coin, that algorithm was mostly successful, but, as the plot ownership on Chaos and Order shows, there's still something wrong. (As a data point, only about 1/4 - 1/3 of the plots on Chaos are owned.) I think this was largely due to some bad assumptions. As such, a bit of a postmortem is in order.

Bad assumption: a player with a lot of coin will buy an expensive plot. Turns out that a player with a lot of coin will buy whatever plot they want to, leaving those without a lot of coin to choose between super-expensive plots in reasonably connected areas and super-cheap plots way out in nowhere land.

Bad assumption: Teleporter connectivity is the deciding factor in choosing one plot over another. Not always. Sometimes the aesthetics of the location, plot size, proximity to resources, or proximity to popular adventuring areas take priority. It all depends on the player's preference and those preferences are not predictable for the purpose of pricing a plot.

Bad assumption: Players will want plots to have plots -- who wouldn't want a plot?! Given the abundance of vacant, cheap plots (about 400 costing less than 700s and more than 1s on Chaos), apparently a lot of people. Regardless of the reason behind deciding not to own a plot (there was a discussion on this... somewhere), broadening the incentives to own a plot requires some, if not more attention than deciding what each plot should cost. The in-game cost of a plot is just a small factor in the overall consideration in plot ownership. (e.g. the opportunity cost of buying and developing one plot over another is considerably higher)

Bad assumption: Most players have a lot of coin. I can't go into detail, but suffice it to say, my gut feeling (used to tweak the pricing algorithm) and the actual numbers were off by an order or so of magnitude. Sorry for not doing my homework. :p

Bad assumption: Buying a plot has to be a significant financial impact for everyone. Given a vast spread of coin distribution, current game mechanics, and current expectations, there's no way to apply a fair amount of financial "hurt" to every player when they buy a plot. Some will not notice a difference. Others will spend most of their coin.

Bad assumption: plot purchases should be a giant coin sink. Buying a plot is a one-time deal, and my initial thought, like many others, was "well, let's make this count then", and take as big a bite out of the player's wallet as reasonably possible. Further thought, however, suggests that a one-time cost when facing a continuous supply of coin makes that one-time cost a pretty lame coin sink. We might be better off with other coin sinks, and instead, look to the plot purchase price as a proof of commitment, rather than tool to moderate the economy.

[Daulnay]

A few months ago, I was considering buying a plot on Order. I went around looking at all the non-Guild plots, to see if there were good ones that I could afford, having a mid-level character without a ton of money.

Almost all the owned plots were the very largest ones. Of the exceptions, only a couple were not near resources or right next to a portal. The smallest ones were unowned, except for those right near resources (Nuthala).

It's pretty clear that people trade up to larger plots as soon as they can, unless there's something special about the plot. It's also clear that there aren't many small plots that otherwise offer something special.

Ideally, if the plots were properly priced, we'd have people occupying a mix of all the different plots. Instead, the population is concentrated in the larger plots.

I do not understand why the larger plots need repricing down at all -- there's clearly demand for them. It is only the smaller plots that are overpriced in the current situation. The largest plots are, if anything, under-priced. Note that I am assuming there is actually a population of players other than myself that do not own a plot. At the least, new players don't own plots, and if we can encourage people who try Istaria to stay and settle by making it easier for them to buy and build on a small plot, we should!

I think any repricing method should leave the bulk of currently owned plots at their current price. It should concentrate on making the unwanted types of plots more attractive, especially the smallest ones near lower-level newb towns. In addition, the devs should consider moving some resource spawns nearer to existing small plots, especially at the lower tiers, in order to make the plots more desirable.

In looking at this, consider also that plot repricing affects the financial health of the Istaria team: plot ownership is a revenue stream for the company, something that we want to encourage so that the game stays alive and well.

[Sargoreth]

I also believe that the larger plots are underpriced, while the silver barrier to plot ownership is too high, unless you are in a guild who has a plot. Make the smaller plots easier to obtain and more affordable, to encourage players to own plots and therefore contribute to this great game financially. The large plots are very much in demand, and in demand means the price can go up, and that there should be more of them.
When I was looking into getting a plot (i was very excited) when I saw one that I liked that was a good size (i think it was a 56x86 or someat) It was WAY out of my price range. I could have gone for a guild plot, but they didn't have the resources nearby and I didn't know about using vault space to getting mats to your buildsite. I wound up having to borrow the 1.2ish gold to buy the land and start building, which was why I subbed in the first place. I would have been very unhappy if it was harder to make friends and I was forced to generate the coin myself to purchase that plot.
Now the really big plots are awesome. I can totally see myself moving into one that was desirably placed, and I don't mind earning it now that I have a little someplace to call home. But I think many of the existing big plots that are currently owned are way undervalued. just my 2 copper...
Sarg

[Thicklesip]

Lots of good discussion in this thread. I saw this question go up but I didn't respond earlier because I couldn't decide what to say. (Collective GASP at the resident Wall Of Text Purveyor being at a loss for words.) Having had awhile to mull it over:

Steelclaw, thank you for enlightening us on the current system of plot pricing! Absolutely fascinating, not to mention entertaining.

Regardless of the reason behind deciding not to own a plot (there was a discussion on this... somewhere)

Here it was!

Given both how unpopular smaller plots are at current prices and coming around to the idea that "a big one-time purchase is a pretty lame money-sink", I think repricing a lot of the more unpopular plots massively downwards might do something to get more people buying them. I don't know whether it'd be only a small uptick in ownership or a significant one-- I suspect it'd be more on the modest side because just because a plot's coin-cheaper doesn't mean the other reasons people haven't been buying it have been fixed. I do think it might make smaller properties more newbie-friendly, though, since it'd tear down (what I am guessing is) one of the biggest barriers to new players getting into plots: getting the dang thing in the first place.

I am ambivalent on how repricing some of the pricier owned plots would affect owners though. I'm not fond of the thought that someone who plunked down 20 gold on their plot would overnight be staring at a plot they could resell to the neighborhood for 4 gold, because ow ow ow 16 gold is not a trivial sum for any but maybe the top ten richest players. I'm just as disproportionately loss-adverse as the next human being. However I'm not sure if that hypothetical 16 gold is any more real and worth considering than the hypothetical 16 gold I could have if I started adventuring in the Eastern Deadlands ten hours a day for a few weeks. This hypothetical money would only be "lost" in the event of the holder selling their plot back to the neighborhood. When does this tend to come up? 1. When the player is quitting, or 2. when the player wishes to move to a new plot. In the event of 1. I don't know why you'd need to hoard another 16 gold if you're leaving, which implies not coming back. In the event of 2, I could see wanting the money to help fund your new home's purchase, but we're discussing a situation where ALL plots just got cheaper, so the hypothetical 16g probably won't be the deciding factor in whether you can afford your new home. That leaves a couple niche reasons to want the money: because you're only temp-quitting (I have sympathy for that and think you shouldn't have your gold supply nuked for it); because you want that money to spend on whateverwhozits like the Formulatron (which I do NOT have much sympathy for because then everyone else who wasn't in the expensive housing market isn't getting a massive windfall out of this, and the people benefiting from this most would probably be Ye Old Veterans who already have umpteen million advantages over the newer people).

So, hrm. I'm torn. Akiron's legacy flag idea is a pretty good solution, or a run-once "[old price of plot] - [new price] = [deposited straight into plot owner's money". (For the record my holdings' resale-to-neighborhood value would add about 60% to my current raw coin. Depending on how hypothetical repricing could shake out, I might lose a relatively large chunk of gold I used to have.)

We don't need an in-game tax on our plots because we're already paying out-of-game for them. I'm glad the devs would never be silly enough to suggest such a thing. (Yes I remember hoard decay. It might as well have been named fun decay for how much everyone enjoyed it.)

It's pretty clear that people trade up to larger plots as soon as they can, unless there's something special about the plot. It's also clear that there aren't many small plots that otherwise offer something special.

I think Daulnay's pretty much nailed the plot-buying experience as it is now. From my own experiences: a plot being tiny is a huge handicap on its attractiveness because they're never cheap enough that you can't find another plot that's bigger and has nearly everything else the same if not better.

I don't know how feasible the idea of only repricing unowned plots is, because what counts as unowned? Order and Chaos have many similar and overlapping ownership patterns, but Order just has fewer plots total since we're smaller-- and what about plots that have been popular over time but aren't owned at the moment on any shard? Seems a smidgen fraught to me.

[Shian]

I am probably one of those players that will be losing well over 20G with this repricing.

Honestly this doesn't faze me in the least bit. I think I paid 4x the lot value for one of my current homes because I purchased it from another player. If I want my money back, more than likely I will auction the plot (where I could easily get my gold back) or give it away to a friend.

High Value plots and lairs are often handed down player to player- usually based on trust that the player would upkeep said plot, negating any reason to worry about whatever price the community value is, save for Blight.

I would LOVE to see everything go down a notch. This would make plots across the board more accessible to newer players. Anything that gets more players living on the land and developing housing is all good in my book. In my entirely biased opinion, land should be dirt cheap as it is far more expensive in time to develop it.

Currently pricing for newer players is easily circumvented as there are some very nice sized plots and lairs in guild lands -all for 1s each for those just wanting a home but can't afford one. This is a good incentive for new players to join a guild.

[Daulnay]

Yes, you can get a plot very cheaply if you join a guild. But looked from the other side, why should you have to join a guild in order to be able to buy a plot? The guild plots are not very near the content in the game, either. I'd much rather pay 90s for a plot in Kion than 1s for a plot way out no-where that is larger.

--
Thorncloud - Order
Tamlis Askereth - Order

[Vahrokh]

No taxes please. I am playing about 1 day a year but still stay subbed with 2 subs (sometimes 3) because of my undying love for Istaria. I could not support my property if I had to constantly pay taxes.

[Finkledbody]

1. When the player is quitting, or 2. when the player wishes to move to a new plot. In the event of 1. I don't know why you'd need to hoard another 16 gold if you're leaving,which implies not coming back.

What you just said here is, "Players only quit and never come back!" - Which we all know is not true.

Many people quit temporarily for another game, finacial reasons, job changes, moving in real life, internets down, bills, bills, bills...

I have seen so many quit, to be back 1 month later..

People rarely quit games and say "Well that its!!!"

So if I happened to be in one of those positions and left around the time when this repricing potentially happens, lets just say I couldnt' pay my internet bill, come back my plots been reclaimed and I was reimbursed half my original plot price?!

What's going through my head when I get back? I expected to come back to 10g, and I only see 5g. "WTF?!"
This will lead me to not resubing, and hold onto the "hate" like I did the last time, that took me 5 years to get over and manage my way back to the game. And I know I'm not the only one :p

This repricing really does need to be done carefully and so fair, the only good suggestion is Akrions

I would definitely suggest consideration for some form of 'legacy' flag on the plot which would allow the owner to resell their plot for what it was originally worth pre-revamp (after which it'll take on its new revamped price). While losing 1g from a slight drop in a plot's cost would be annoying, losing over 20g from the Brandon's Shelf plots would touch just a bit past annoying I think.

[Finkledbody]

That leaves a couple niche reasons to want the money:

Oh jeez. I forgot to say one last thing :P hehe

Me personally, getting this coin back would lead to a couple things.

Paying for a 3rd plot sub and getting another plot.
Paying for a 4th plot sub and getting another plot.
Paying out t1/t2 construction work to the newbs like I ALWAYS do.
And giving coin to fellow guild members that are new, and would like to purchase a plot.

[Lillyjo]

price of plots give people something to work for..and also the incentive to stay in game longer, i only have one objection to the plot reclaim in the fact that guild houses are not removed and placed into storage with the exception of the preplanned main guild houses. because just like before when people bought plots just to decon and get the comps resouirces and items stored on the main commuity plots is unfair to the person who leaves the game for a while if their lives get too busy or they are ill and or lose their jobs etc.. I hate the fact that for some reason the guild houses are not reclaimed and left to be ravaged and stripped by the greedy and lazy people in game..who just make coin from selling the resourses and items then deconning the houses then selling back the empty plots. I can understand the master plot guild house main one staying because its preplanned but not all of the guild houses..to me its unfair to the players who built and stored their items on them.

[Guaran]

...Ideally, if the plots were properly priced, we'd have people occupying a mix of all the different plots. Instead, the population is concentrated in the larger plots.

I do not understand why the larger plots need repricing down at all -- there's clearly demand for them. It is only the smaller plots that are overpriced in the current situation. The largest plots are, if anything, under-priced. Note that I am assuming there is actually a population of players other than myself that do not own a plot. At the least, new players don't own plots, and if we can encourage people who try Istaria to stay and settle by making it easier for them to buy and build on a small plot, we should!

I think any repricing method should leave the bulk of currently owned plots at their current price. It should concentrate on making the unwanted types of plots more attractive, especially the smallest ones near lower-level newb towns. In addition, the devs should consider moving some resource spawns nearer to existing small plots, especially at the lower tiers, in order to make the plots more desirable...

Excellent points.

Repricing should take several factors into account.
3 tiers: 1/10 1 10 these are the desirability modifiers for each attribute
Attributes: Size, Location within area, Area, calculated (size + Location)*Area

the middle is left at 1, and this can be the base pricing decided for each area. Obviously plots on Genevia can't be priced comparably to plots outside Aughundell (Areas). So a base price of say 100s can apply to Genevia, and say 5G for Aughundell. This is the "1" value for each area.

Example of application:
small plot (1/10), far away from town/porters (1/10) on Genevia. The plot should be priced at 2/10 the base plot valuation for the Area Genevia which is 100s, or 20s for this plot. Not a bank breaker even for a new toon. They can get right in and start building.

Second Genevia Example:
big plot 10, right in the middle of town 10, Genevia. This would be the most desirable plot in the whole area. Plot cost 400s.

First aug example: Big plot 10, right down from the teleporter by aug 10, area Aughundell. This would be a 100G plot. (omg omg too much)

As Daulnay observed, the most desired plots are owned. Players will come up with the money.

Second aug example: average size plot 1, edge of town, kinda far from teleporter 1, Aughundell. 10G (1+1)x5G

There would have to be a subjective value manually chosen for the base value for each area. The "location within area" is also subjective, but you only have to dump it in one of three buckets: less than desireable (1/10), average (1), or highly-desired (10).

For most owned plots in desired areas, this would actually increase their value. A few out of the way plots would lose value. This is how real-estate works, and trying to keep everyone happy with the re-pricing isn't likely possible. As far as players who had plots reposessed long ago, they got back what they paid, I don't see any harm there.

Result: lots of cheap plots, but the good ones will be priced high, as well they should.

[LOVWYRM]

I agree with Lilly and Guaran,

still do not agree with Finklebody and Akrion