Poll about caps on Dragon Tool Claws

[Northwind]

We're about to get the skill caps on Dragon Tool Claws, simply because of me trying to bring arguments in this thread, as stated by Amon on post 44 and detailed further on
Counter arguments were made by me and also by Sigi, Akrion, Guaran.

Short story if you are not willing to click all those links:
Dragon tool claws are not Tools as the ones used by Bipeds. They are just a mean to use techs and sockets for cogs.
As a biped, if you drop your tool you can't craft. Plain and simple.
Dragons can craft without tools claws since they are actually using magical abilities to craft and not a physical tool (a 1 hour duration ability which actually is the real TOOL a dragon is using to craft)

The main argument Amon is bringing for the skill caps is that it is forcing players to use the upper tier - but that is plain wrong, at least for Dragons, as the time has proved this by now.
The main reason to use the upper tier tools is the fact that you cannot use higher tier techs than the tier of the tool (you can't use tier 5 techs on a tier 3 tool claw) and that should be enough - and should also be enough for biped tools too since we're at it.

So please vote.

[Krinharth]

if it is price of 4 sockets - let it be.
if no...well, caps gave unadvantage against without cap, but I know too less about bipeds to compare.

ps: thus I do not poll

[Sigi]

I voted NO - (what a surprise
If you are a crafting dragon you would want a higher tier claw anyway because then you have more sockets, you don't need the cap to force you to another claw.

[Steelclaw]

Disclaimer: I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone on the design team, nor can I make any commitments for them.

First things first, a tip on creating a better poll: the wording of the poll options is a little biased. A fairer selection would be "Yes", "No", "Don't care". Don't put words in the voters' mouths -- a "no" vote implies that the voter feels that skill caps shouldn't apply to dragon tool claws because "they were never designed to have caps", even if the voter doesn't believe that is the reason for voting "no".

Okay. Poll bias aside, let's also set aside the notion of original intention. We don't know what a designer originally intended when developing a game mechanic any more than what they wanted to have for dinner that day.

We also don't know if that designer knew all of the repercussions of their decision. Designers are people, people make mistakes. People also can't predict the future, and sometimes, through no fault of anyone involved, the context around a certain decision evolves in a manner that makes the decision a bad idea.

What really matters is the current context. Does a design decision make sense now, in the current state of the game as it has evolved over time?

Now, consider some facts (no speculation involved):
- A dragon does not need a tool claw to craft.
- Any stat caps applied by a tool claw no longer apply once the claw is unequipped.
- A tool claw provides a means for augmenting a character's build.

By no stretch of the imagination, it's pretty safe to conclude that the benefits of using a tool claw are, so to speak, icing on the cake.

With that in consideration, I ask the following, mostly directed to those who oppose skill caps on the tool claws:
- How do you perceive the skill caps being detrimental to your play experience?
- Do you feel that it's reasonable to have to endure some compensatory factor to obtain a bonus?
- If so, then if not skill caps, what do you consider a reasonable compensation?

I'm not taking sides here -- skill caps or not, I don't care. However, I do care about having this discussion go in a constructive direction, unlike the previous, related one.

[Mimir]

Steelclaw a very well written post, that I appreciate reading. Thank you.

I think if discussions could be had without deleted posts, banned players, or draconian moderation you might find the discussions even themselves back out and actually produce a consensus and overall agreement between players and developers.

Tempers flair, players are people too (as are developers) so some may add more emotion to their posts than needed.

[Steelclaw]

Steelclaw a very well written post, that I appreciate reading. Thank you.

I think if discussions could be had without deleted posts, banned players, or draconian moderation you might find the discussions even themselves back out and actually produce a consensus and overall agreement between players and developers.

Thanks for your support!

While I agree that heavy-handed moderation can impede a constructive conversation, this isn't the place for that discussion. You're free to try your luck with a new thread, or more neutral grounds, though.

Please try to keep this thread on the topic of skill caps on dragon tool claws.

[awdz]

Now, consider some facts (no speculation involved):
- A dragon does not need a tool claw to craft.
- Any stat caps applied by a tool claw no longer apply once the claw is unequipped.
- A tool claw provides a means for augmenting a character's build.

By no stretch of the imagination, it's pretty safe to conclude that the benefits of using a tool claw are, so to speak, icing on the cake.

You could apply the same statements to jewelry, which bipeds most definitely appreciate using. I suspect the intent was for claws to have similar use restrictions to the jewelry restrictions.

*shrugs* I do not really have a preference for what is done with claws because it generally has little effect on what I do.

[Northwind]

First things first, a tip on creating a better poll: the wording of the poll options is a little biased. A fairer selection would be "Yes", "No", "Don't care". Don't put words in the voters' mouths -- a "no" vote implies that the voter feels that skill caps shouldn't apply to dragon tool claws because "they were never designed to have caps", even if the voter doesn't believe that is the reason for voting "no".

Well, being a design decision was my educated guess on the matter.
The tool claws are in game as they are for a long time already and i think it is safe to assume that it was a design decision as much as dragons crafting using abilities was a design decision too - and as much as anything else gets into game.
If it wasn't like that, the "bug" would had been corrected years ago and not now, as a result of a heated discussion and by making the "fix" look as a punishment for objections raised to another (imho) pointless "fix" - see the other poll please, the one regarding the Prototype.
Still, i noted the tip for future polls, thank you Steelclaw.

We also don't know if that designer knew all of the repercussions of their decision. Designers are people, people make mistakes. People also can't predict the future, and sometimes, through no fault of anyone involved, the context around a certain decision evolves in a manner that makes the decision a bad idea.

What really matters is the current context. Does a design decision make sense now, in the current state of the game as it has evolved over time?

Given the way dragon crafting works (not reiterating all of it again), having caps on dragon tool claws makes no sense at all. The incentive to use the next tier comes from the benefits it brings (higher tier techs, more tech slots)

Now, consider some facts (no speculation involved):
- A dragon does not need a tool claw to craft.
- Any stat caps applied by a tool claw no longer apply once the claw is unequipped.
- A tool claw provides a means for augmenting a character's build.

By no stretch of the imagination, it's pretty safe to conclude that the benefits of using a tool claw are, so to speak, icing on the cake.

With that in consideration, I ask the following, mostly directed to those who oppose skill caps on the tool claws:
- How do you perceive the skill caps being detrimental to your play experience?
- Do you feel that it's reasonable to have to endure some compensatory factor to obtain a bonus?
- If so, then if not skill caps, what do you consider a reasonable compensation?

Well, since we agreed that a Dragon tool claw is not actually a tool - because it is not mandatory to craft - then it shares the same status as scales. Which is simply to add benefits and act as techs/sockets holders.

So, to ask your direct questions:
- Yes, I see the skill caps being detrimental for dragon crafting experience.
While leveling crafting with my biped I was quite annoyed and puzzled by the skill caps imposed by biped tools - but i said well, biped crafting is way different, so be it.
- The tool claw, as it is now without caps, is a compensatory measure for the low base values that dragon crafters get (7/8 points per crafting level) by allowing them to use cogs. It makes no sense to require compensation for compensation.

In short, don't Fix something that is not broken.

[Shian]

Caps on tool claws makes no sense whatsoever.

Tool claws were put in the game to enable dragons that have a significantly higher crafting than adventure the ability to use cogs since weapon claws are based on adventure level. Nothing more.

If said dragon wants to gimp themselves by using a lower level tool claw and denying themselves the extra tech/cog slot, that's a cap in itself to me.

If a cap is put in, then adventure claws also need to be capped for crafting as well. Otherwise the dragon with the higher adventure rating can be significantly better than the dragon with the higher crafting. Which is the most backwards thing I've heard today.

This is nothing short of utter nonsense and I don't know why no one else sees this:
"Yes! Great! Let's give the dragon who works to get a higher adventure level a leg up on crafting and totally gimp the dragon that decides they want a higher crafting level!"

Dragon mechanics are not biped mechanics.

[Racktor]

Dragon mechanics are not biped mechanics.

^ I couldn't of stated it better.

[Thicklesip]

Kicking my two cents into the pile before I resume ignoring it:

What really matters is the current context. Does a design decision make sense now, in the current state of the game as it has evolved over time?

This is the point of view I'm working with. I keep an eye on the past intentions and iterations, but that's clearly one great big morass of confusion on this topic and probably best not treated too delicately.

To quote the original Blight 223 Comments, where I asked what the intention of tool skill caps is/was:

Thickle: [...] what's the point of tool skill caps anyways? Is it just meant to keep cheapskates (like me) from grabbing the training version and using that until craft level 100 if we're too lazy to buy/make teched tools?
Amon: Exactly. A mechanism to force players to use higher tier tools.

This is NOT gospel, devs can be wrong or later change their minds, but assuming that this is pretty much correct: dragon tool claws do not need skill caps, and adding them would be somewhere between "silly" and "a mild nuisance".

1. There are no dragon blacksmiths. Biped blacksmiths need people to order more tools as often as possible to stay in business. Given how many biped tools there are, and crafting classes, needing new tools every tier to uncap their skills is a fine system to keep blacksmiths in business. However, dragon crafters are nowhere near that specialized. We can make tool claws, sure, but we also make scalepacks, spells, scales, gem claws, and at least four kinds of resource refinements. If nobody comes to me for tool claws, that's doesn't do a single thing to hurt my business. Conversely, 'forcing' up-and-coming crafters to replace their tool claw every tier would not be a major boost in business-- there's not a lot of people in the market, I suspect, and many would drop out and go unclawed rather than deal with the nuisance.

2. We're already upgrading our tool claws. The other assumption is that there's not enough claw-upgrading going on, warranting the addition of skill caps. In my experience there is because of the positive motivation for tool upgrades: better techs and more sockets. I was eager to get my itty bitty hatchling claws on tool claw forms back in the day because I wanted more sockets and higher skill bonuses the moment I could have them. I assume that people uninterested in those bonuses never bother with tool claws at all; adding skill caps wouldn't change that. But people who want the better bonuses and higher sockets, which are the reason for the claws in the first place? I suspect they're already upgrading.


If we don't need for drum up business for dragon crafters, we already have most of the business we'd get with the change anyways, and making work for crafters is the main purpose behind the skill caps, then I'd say there's no point in adding skill caps to tool claws.