Talk to the Team: Shields (Implemented)

[AmonGwareth]

This thread is about some potential changes we’re considering to Shields. We’d like to ask for player feedback and thoughts regarding the current state of shields as well as the proposed changes.

Reason for the considered changes: Small and Medium shields are far less used than Large shields as they offer little benefit beyond aesthetics. Medium Round shields are used a little more, but still offer a penalty in terms of loss of Block and Armor compared to their Larger cousins. Revamping shields to create a reason for players to use them offers more choice for players as well as flexibility to play-style.

What are the changes:

• For starters the first change is to better standardize the armor values. They weren't consistent across types and tiers so by making them consistent and raising them slightly the armor values of shields are better.
  
• The second change, and the one with the greater impact, is the adjusting of the Block values of the Shields. This change gives Smaller shields a greater block value when compared to Larger shields. The idea behind this being that you can more quickly move a smaller shield into position to block an incoming attack and it makes Smaller shields attractive when compared to Larger if Blocking attacks is your goal, but you will sacrifice significant armor to do so. As before, the Fine variety of Shields offers greater benefits than the standard variety.
  
  Here is a brief rundown of some selected shields across Tiers and types:

Shield	Armor	New Armor	Block	New Block
T1 Small	6	6	0	9
T1 Fine Small	12	12	0	14
T3 Medium	54	49	5	7
T3 Fine Medium	69	82	5	12
T5 Large	150	124	10	5
T5 Fine Large	174	200	10	10

FAQ:
Q: Why don’t you have Smaller shields parry instead of block?
A: This is indeed a good suggestion and is what smaller shields were traditionally used for, but unfortunately this would create a much larger headache in the game with where techniques could be applied as well as mixing the accepted game convention of Weapons Parry while Shields Block.

Q: How do Round shields fit into this change?
A: Round shields are considered to be Medium Shields for Armor and Block values.

[Dhalin]

Looks good so far.

I've always felt that there was zero reason to use anything other than a (Fine)Large shield if my school allowed it. Basically it was "stick the biggest shield on you were permitted to use" and that was that.

Under the new system, looks like you've a little choice now which is nice. More Armor or More Block?

This is the way FFXI used to do it; you blocked more often with a smaller shield, but blocked less damage per block than you did with a big shield. I don't know if Istaria's engine allows that, so we'll just have to settle for the Block vs Armor model you proposed above.

[Guaran]

Can we get the armor/block comparisons for an entire tier? You gave us t1 small shields, t5 large. Give us the proposed values for everything t5 (t5 small, t5 fine small, t5 medium/round t5 fine mendium/round, t5 large, t5 fine large), then we can comment on the ideas.

I think a small parry bonus to the small wouldn't be that bad. Just like say +12 or the small, +6 on the medium, none on the large.
Thinking on the parry is that the lighter shield allows character to be more agile and evasive.

Ooh, nice alternate idea: Evasion bonus and/or penalties. More likely a bonus, or the large shield becomes worthless in effort to make the small more desired.

small +10% evasion, medium +5% evasion, large no bonus to evasion. But really, the parry attribute makes more sense.

[AmonGwareth]

Can we get the armor/block comparisons for an entire tier? You gave us t1 small shields, t5 large. Give us the proposed values for everything t5 (t5 small, t5 fine small, t5 medium/round t5 fine mendium/round, t5 large, t5 fine large), then we can comment on the ideas.

I think a small parry bonus to the small wouldn't be that bad. Just like say +12 or the small, +6 on the medium, none on the large.
Thinking on the parry is that the lighter shield allows character to be more agile and evasive.

Ooh, nice alternate idea: Evasion bonus and/or penalties. More likely a bonus, or the large shield becomes worthless in effort to make the small more desired.

small +10% evasion, medium +5% evasion, large no bonus to evasion. But really, the parry attribute makes more sense.

I considered evasion, but it didn't make sense to me. Shields don't improve your evasion. They might hinder it, but we nixed the idea of having a penalty. As I said about Parry, it breaks the convention that the game builds as well as potentially creating issues with techniques so that is why it wasn't added.

Block values are consistent across all Tiers. They are 9/7/5 for the Small/Medium/Large and 14/12/10 for the Fine Small/Medium/Large. Armor values in T5 are currently 96/123/150 and 114/144/174. They'll adjust to 86/105/124 and 124/162/200.

So, the regular large shield loses block, while all others gain more or stay the same. Non-Fine shields tend to lose a bit of armor while Fine shields gain. The idea behind that armor change was to make it so that a Non-Fine Large was equal to a Fine Small in terms of armor. And it creates a wider gap between non-Fine Large and Fine Large.

[Calyndrell]

I honestly can't believe what I am reading. Personally I would argue that the larger shield SIGNIFICANTLY increases block (after all that's why Romans and Spartans use them). However the trade off being a penalty to evasion. If you really want an example of how such a large shield could be used look up the show Deadliest Warrior and look for the Spartan battle it really strikes home how a shield should be used to its fullest.

I understand you want to make the otherworldly more desirable but please don't do it by making large shields useless. Or if you do can we possibly get a rebate on certain quest kits?

[AmonGwareth]

I honestly can't believe what I am reading. Personally I would argue that the larger shield SIGNIFICANTLY increases block (after all that's why Romans and Spartans use them). However the trade off being a penalty to evasion. If you really want an example of how such a large shield could be used look up the show Deadliest Warrior and look for the Spartan battle it really strikes home how a shield should be used to its fullest.

I understand you want to make the otherworldly more desirable but please don't do it by making large shields useless. Or if you do can we possibly get a rebate on certain quest kits?

Correct, large shields should block better, but then in reality you don't have an armor value that reduces the damage you take from a sword in the stomach. :)

Giving larger shields higher block was considered, however to give Large shields both high armor and high block would leave them in the same situation they currently are. i.e. the only shield that anyone uses. Small shields traditional would be used to parry (as was pointed out to me on Chaos one day several weeks ago and read about in research later), but as I stated adding Parry to shields would create additional problems (where can techs be applied, parry is described as something with weapons in the game, etc).

The original idea was that you'd have a penalty for using larger shields, but after discussion we decided that having a penalty when using a shield wasn't a good thing for the game so we nixed that idea and went with higher block on smaller shields. In a way, it isn't so bad. Larger shields will still give decent protection as Fine Large remains the same as before with its block value, but gains additional armor (which helps reduce the damage you take). Smaller shields will simply help you avoid attacks better than their larger variety.

Hope this helps explain our thought processes a bit more. Sometimes reality has to take a back-seat to game design and in this case we had to also take into account existing conventions and techniques already in the game

[terrox]

i agree with starlight please do not Alter the ceremonial shield or reklar shields these are the only 2 epic shields in the game and putting techs on them makes them the same as crafted shields . why hunt reklar or do the imperial outpost quest for a crafted shield .. to me this makes no sense and to include an epic shield as a t5 shield is also wrong .. as per Lovwyrms suggesrion on blight discussion i agree that the ceremonial scale should aslo be alter as it is from the same quest line

[Guaran]

Concerning Reklars tower shield and ceremonial, is the 254 armor the t6 large in the new scheme? As others have mentioned a t5 that can take sockets becomes better, just stick +65 armor crystal in... soo, to counter that, and since these are "epic", shouldn't the armor be 319? (65+254).

Or, stick with the new armor value and add some sockets...

You mentioned possibly trading it in for one that can be teched, will Ceremonial retain its hidden buffs? (Procs of mystical ward of istaria and the melee ward, which can land on group members). Those are what really make that shield worth using in spite of the evasion penalty.

Reklars tower shield really needs a boost ... perhaps give it 3 tech slots, or give it 2 slots (for drag on armor sockets) and just up the block to the new value+t5 block technique amount? (Since there's no way to drag to apply the block tech). Since this shield is crafted, would it be able to be teched during creation?

[Arzel Rashemi]

And the other thing to ask is if the option is going to be there for trading in the Ceremonial shield, does that mean those of us who have the shield already will be able to keep it as is now without the new changes? (i.e grandfathered) that point has never really been made clear.

And its quite a big deal because if the values to block and armor specifically are put onto the ceremonial shields we have now, then it penalizes us for having an older ceremonial shield (block 10, armor 254, no added techs, no ethereal armor boost, evasion penalty) rather than trading it in for the proposed ceremonial shield (block 10, armor 254, two techniques, etheral armor boost, no evasion penalty) that has all the additions to counter what is being lost.

So is the option to trade in the ceremonial shield going to mean the old shields are going to be grandfathered as is, or are the changes to block and armor going to be applied to them also?

[Northwind]

Nice point Guaran, i completely forgot about the Ceremonial's buffs.

[starlight]

hm game mechanic wise vs game descriptions
Mechanic wise the new proposed changes are making small shields able to block things that would be VERY difficult to block namely any form of a projectile like arrows for example.
I can see a medium shield having a higher block chance due to the inbetween size and lighter weight than a tower shield but a tower shield having a low block bonus than a tiny little wrist mounted shield does not make any sense. the small shields I feel would always have the lowest chance to block any attack the change may want to consider is instead adding a parry bonus ONLY to the small shields not the medium or large shields at best. Secondly a large shield that covers one body would make it much harder for a opponent to hit the user thus having a higher blocking chance than a tiny shield

[jeff281]

I would like to see you have Bucklers as a new shield type or just have the smalls be able to be used as a buckler shield that attach to the foreams so my crossbowman could use them. At release of this game there was talk about having crossbowman be able to equip such a shield,but nothing every happened. My crossbowman needs more survivablity and this would help. He gets the Block ability just like scouts but it is never used. It was my understanding that this was the vision of the class from the beginning.

[Sindala]

Let's not forget the Healer's friend, The Cross Shield :)

[Finkledbody]

Personally, I look at it like this. If you were in the heat of battle with a shield and your opponent took a swing at you with a weapon there are a few ways to do so. Depending on which attack was used, each shield would defend you for better or for worse. Large shields do provide a lot of coverage however are truly impossible to move quickly in the event of most frontal attacks, causing the attacker to easily move around the large shield and strike at vulnerable points. There are a couple different ways it could go. Direct downward swing which would impact the head/shoulders/chest. With a large shield, the defender would have to lift that large shield to angle it towards the downward blow of the weapon. The larger the shield the less angle you can use to deflect the incoming attack. So the impact becomes more of a dead blow against a large shield vs.

The same attack on a small shield, you could provide more angle to the attacking weapon causing it to graze and deflect off the shield instead of the direct impact. Although the large shield absorbed the damage, giving the direct hit of the attack, it would still push through the shield and impact you in some way. If the hit happened towards the top of the large shield, it would put alot of downward force at the weakest point of the shield, where the least amount of opposing force is. (think about where that large shield is actually secured to the person holding it.) That hit would reverberated down the shield, move through your arm and hit your core. A smaller shield allows more deflection which in turn, reduces impact and injury.

Apply this logic to a sweeping swing attack that goes from one side to the other on a even plain. The impact point would be your arms, ribs, hips, etc. Same thing would happen, if you were defending with a large shield you would be able to get the shield infront of the weapon but you wouldn't be able to angle it to deflect the incoming attack, it would just be another dead blow. And even in fantasy, the more direct of a hit you take, the more damage you receive regardless of armor.

I really think Amon has the right idea with this one. Large shields provide coverage but they do not provide real world blocking.

Think about it.

[Finkledbody]

Would make a lot more sense to me if the smaller shields had lower block than the bigger ones, but also had an added +dodge, +m/physevasion stat on 'em.

@Finkeled, gonna have to be a little more specific than that if you want to use a scenario in your argument. Depends how many arrows, how small is a small shield, and so on. If someone shoots a volley at me, wouldn't I want a big shield to hide behind, because a small one would, while be better at deflecting, also run the risk of me ending up with an arrow in my foot/shin/knee/wherever? If the 'volley' was really small or really visible, then sure I'd go for a smaller shield. Also big shields don't -have- to be flat - they can be curved too.


Dunno what you mean here - what I took from your post( >.> read it going on 4 times now) is that bigger shields block better, and the smaller ones don't block as well, but deflect a lot better.

How I think of it is - if I've got a dragon thirty to fourty times my size (or more), what is going to take the hit better - a tiny shield or a big one? The big one. Okay, the big one blocks better, the tiny one will let my poor little biped get out of the way, maybe.

The arrows were one of 3 scenarios I wrote out the best I could with limited time on my break while at work. Lets forget that one for now if we can. The post I wrote before that one I was able to go into a bit more detail with a couple different frontal attacks. I'll attempt to build upon the logic although I must say first... If a dragon thirty or forty times your size took a swing at you, a big shield isn't going to do anything over a small one. Consider yourself squash :P

Personally, I look at it like this. If you were in the heat of battle with a shield and your opponent took a swing at you with a weapon there are a few ways to do so. Depending on which attack was used, each shield would defend you for better or for worse. Large shields do provide a lot of coverage however are truly impossible to move quickly in the event of most frontal attacks, causing the attacker to easily move around the large shield and strike at vulnerable points. There are a couple different ways it could go. Direct downward swing which would impact the head/shoulders/chest. With a large shield, the defender would have to lift that large shield to angle it towards the downward blow of the weapon. The larger the shield the less angle you can use to deflect the incoming attack. So the impact becomes more of a dead blow against a large shield

In the event of a downward blow with a large shield, its very likely a hammer type weapon would still strike the defender since the impact point of the weapon has length past the point where the pole would meet the shield. In this event, even when the pole hit the shield the mass of the hammer head above the top of the shield would force the shield to pivot into the defender (because the opposing force is at the middle of the shield) once the shield pivots the next thing the defender has to do is put his shoulder/head up against the top of the shield to prevent it from pivoting so far back that it would cause the shield user to fall over. Since the only option is to put your head/shoulder up against the large shield to apply opposing force against the attack, ultimately all you have done is stuck a solid surface in between you and the weapon, and we've all seen those balls on a string right? The force will move directly through the shield into the user causing injury. With a blow like this the amount of time it would take to reposition yourself to prepare for the next blow would leave you venerable to further injury. Lets not forget about the fatigue from wielding a larger shield as well. Even if you can get a few quick well angled blocks in with a large shield, how many times would you be able to swing that large shield around before you rotator cuff lets go? and the next attack wales you right on the forehead?

The same attack on a small shield, you could provide more angle to the attacking weapon causing it to graze and deflect off the shield instead of the direct impact. Although the large shield absorbed the damage, giving the direct hit of the attack, it would still push through the shield and impact you in some way. If the hit happened towards the top of the large shield, it would put alot of downward force at the weakest point of the shield, where the least amount of opposing force is. (think about where that large shield is actually secured to the person holding it.) That hit would reverberate down the shield, move through your arm and hit your core. A smaller shield allows more deflection which in turn, reduces impact and injury.

With a smaller shield you can focus and use your forearm as the opposing force intelligently above your head and turn the shield at a 45* angle counter to your position so when the strike comes down, its deflected off the shield away from the defender. Also with this sort of defensive block, the attacker has to use more energy to slow his weapon causing fatigue.

I could go on, but I'm at work.. I should probably go do some stuff.

[Kaishan]

To make use of small, medium and large shields there has to be a benifit to each for different scenarios; of course I think everyone already understands that. I really like the idea of the +25 Life skill added to the yew fine round cross shield for my healer.

For a tank player up front smashing stuff, I would think there would be no better shield than the Mithril Fine Large Shield but, for support ie healers, mages ect.. It would be nice to have possibly lower armor and block bonus but more offensive "additional bonuses" that would help that type of school like +Power, +Life, +Focus; (Magic evasion added Blight, Spirit, Flame, Ice ect..). I think if this type of change were to be made you would indeed see people begin to think about using the other types of shields available I know I would. I would be willing to lose some armor on my shield to get an extra bonus to help my school.
Cheers

-Kaishan

[Guaran]

To make use of small, medium and large shields there has to be a benifit to each for different scenarios; of course I think everyone already understands that. I really like the idea of the +25 Life skill added to the yew fine round cross shield for my healer....

This is a good point. I think that was what Amon was going for with the block changes.

I think more differentiation of the shields would help spread the love even better across the range of shields. In your example with the healer/cleric shield with +25 life, how about bumping that up to +250 life? 25 life is pretty much an un-noticable difference. +250 will stand out as the obvious choice for healers and make the shield actually beneficial. Follow that same line of thought on the other shield with skill boosts and players will actually use them. I don't know anyone except Kaishan who actually uses the round shields with skills on them...

[Korchak Strongbone]

I third this idea. Let's get away with just thinking in the terms of blocking and armor amount for tankers and think about how we could help out the support teams.
Great idea Amon