more jobs for unemployed casters

[LOVWYRM]

I would love to see a new kind of mobs- an epic boss included- who are (nearly) immune to melee attacks, but
very vulnerably by magical/primal attacks.
Could be they have something like a "continual harden shell"- but very low resistance to all non-melee attacks.

Would give some biped schools and dragon casters a more important role in group fights and in game at all.

Why not start with AoP and his group- as its under examination atm anyway (let AoP and Aegors be immune to melee- leave the others as they are).
(though I have no idea how to get them down without melee^^ but would be a completely new challange).

What do you think?

[Spyrioyo]

I think it would be bad for ARoP. But for certain mobs yeah it be a good idea but not for some epics.

[Arzel Rashemi]

I don't think its a bad idea lov. I'd certainly love to see something like that in game, or a boss that is dealt with like Reklar where a spell is needed to make them vulnerable. It used to be the case that only helians with a high primal skill could cast boon thus making spellcasters useful, but the muddling of helian/lunus made it so every dragon can cast boon. If we make a boss that would give spellcasters a use in this way, truly make the spell for the boss useable only by spellcasters with a high primal skill so not everyone could cast it.

In regards of having a boss completely immune to melee, I like that idea too. Something different. We kind of already have a boss (Daknor) who is more susceptible to spells than melee, although it is only very marginal.

[LOVWYRM]

Zyr, I think its a typo that you wrote "bad for ARoP. Cause, as far as I remember, AoP nor egors are part of ARoP??
And if- ask a caster for help then:-)

If you ment AoP: With a mixed group and good tactics- it should be doable-I think^^
And I chose AoP cause its a group- which would make sense to dragon`s area spells.

Most of us are very versed in killing epics- but the tactics is too heavy on melee attacks most of the time.

Woulden`t it be a nice variety to have an epic fight with a main focus on other than melee attacks?

[LOVWYRM]

It used to be the case that only helians with a high primal skill could cast boon thus making spellcasters useful, but the muddling of helian/lunus made it so every dragon can cast boon. If we make a boss that would give spellcasters a use in this way, truly make the spell for the boss useable only by spellcasters with a high primal skill so not everyone could cast it.

This Arzel!

And with the latest changes in dragon life
(e.g.breath is linked to streghth too) and the new scales, the nerfes of snarl and menacing p.(why not link it with primal/focus/power so only a high caster can do it with 100%?) and some other little things-)
the muddling went on and its not that I like it.

I always played my dragons hybride-but there was a big difference between Lov`s (caster) meelee attacks
and Luna`s ( meele) spell attacks. Meanwhile its only a small difference.
We are kinda forced to play "true" hybride to be successful. And I have 2 nearly identical dragons-
And would need only one-further specialisation would weaken them.
All in all I like the changes that force players to use all there is- but casters- like it always was- fell by the wayside again.
But maybe some things can be changed in future.

So all ideas and opinions are much appreciated:-)

[Alisto]

I think changing a mob to be more vulnerable to spells is a decent idea, but it ignores the inherent problems casters have. I would love for my casters to have more of a role in things, but I'd prefer the actual character be useful, and not only viable because the fight caters heavily to them.

[Spyrioyo]

I got an idea how about some mobs that require both melee and casters to work together instead just for just caster or just melee to promote casters and melee fights to work together as a team.

[hallucin8]

(I understand much of your thoughts Lov come from the view of a dragon though you're no stranger to the ways of the naka... and it's very complicated balancing the game for dragons and peds equally, so a grain of salt for what I might say)

I think the only way you could implement this is by tinkering with evasion, i.e. high melee evasion, low magic evasion. I don't think changing resistances is going to have the effect you want, since it's relatively easy to change your damage type (unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't be the first time).

This would be my preference... areas like the Deadpool or the Chiconis Battlefield, heavily ingrained with WA magic buffing the enemy with high melee evasion, at the cost of lower magic evasion. It wouldn't be impossible for melee classes to somewhat offset the evasion, but they would still find it a tough time. Wouldn't need anything new this way, since we already have similar scenarios with mobs having auras that buff/debuff.

At the most basic level, it comes down to DPS. Magic users typically enjoy more crowd-control and/or AoE meaning higher DPS when fighting multiple mobs, while melee users mostly rely on high damage single-target attacks. So for Epic battles without many adds, this does pretty much mean all magic users are less effective, while melee users are very effective, dragons and peds alike (this doesn't mean magic users are not useful, it's just that their use is rather specific and not about direct damage). As for 'normal' non-epic battles, magic users can enjoy greater diversity, crowd-control, better survivability, basically magic-users are at least as good as melee users in the battlefield IMHO.

An epic with high melee evasion and lower magic evasion could be interesting. I'm pretty sure Reklar has excruciatingly high magic evasion, so an Epic with the opposite setup could be fun.

[Spyrioyo]

(I understand much of your thoughts Lov come from the view of a dragon though you're no stranger to the ways of the naka... and it's very complicated balancing the game for dragons and peds equally, so a grain of salt for what I might say)

I think the only way you could implement this is by tinkering with evasion, i.e. high melee evasion, low magic evasion. I don't think changing resistances is going to have the effect you want, since it's relatively easy to change your damage type (unless I'm mistaken, wouldn't be the first time).

This would be my preference... areas like the Deadpool or the Chiconis Battlefield, heavily ingrained with WA magic buffing the enemy with high melee evasion, at the cost of lower magic evasion. It wouldn't be impossible for melee classes to somewhat offset the evasion, but they would still find it a tough time. Wouldn't need anything new this way, since we already have similar scenarios with mobs having auras that buff/debuff.

At the most basic level, it comes down to DPS. Magic users typically enjoy more crowd-control and/or AoE meaning higher DPS when fighting multiple mobs, while melee users mostly rely on high damage single-target attacks. So for Epic battles without many adds, this does pretty much mean all magic users are less effective, while melee users are very effective, dragons and peds alike (this doesn't mean magic users are not useful, it's just that their use is rather specific and not about direct damage). As for 'normal' non-epic battles, magic users can enjoy greater diversity, crowd-control, better survivability, basically magic-users are at least as good as melee users in the battlefield IMHO.

An epic with high melee evasion and lower magic evasion could be interesting. I'm pretty sure Reklar has excruciatingly high magic evasion, so an Epic with the opposite setup could be fun.

I know mylocs and Blight Hounds have high evasion too and I also agree and experienced first hand that its harder to hit things with high evasion.

[Alisto]

With the permission of the OP...

Melee vs. ranged (casters). Mind this is a general comparison to start off. Ista has funky aggro systems and whatnot, will get to those later.

Melee must suffer through AoEs (Reklar's stun thingy for example), tend to be the first targets for attack, and generally take the most damage. In exchange, they gain high single target damage.

Casters/ranged are at a range. They don't suffer from AoEs, and their damage output tends to lead to the melee being the first targets from mobs. Casters can be squishier if they want due to easier kiting, and they're not in melee range in the first place. Sometimes they get more crowd control abilities than melee. In exchange for the benefits, they give up - tankiness, and in this case damage.

The problem is that most of the benefits from being a caster are totally negated in most situations. Kiting doesn't work in Istaria unless you count running away, and dragons don't have a root ability, though the Mez is useful. We only have a couple instant-cast caster abilities, none of which can be used while moving (gotta stop, press the button then move again).

Due to the funky aggro system, mobs go after whoever they like, and AoEs (see Valkor's bats) tend to hit them anyway. Furthermore: my melee dragon's auto attacks outdamages my caster dragon's bolts. I believe melee auto attacks are also faster than repeater bolts. That doesn't even take into consideration the techs on a melee claw - rending, Virulent venom, etc.

Spells also don't have multistrikes, except for Primal Cast. Melee has an easy time proccing crystals and techs on their claws, while a proc from any of those is rare. My full power/primal casters do more damage using melee abilities than they do standing back and casting the entire fight. Virulent Venom on my melee claw will tick for a total of 1800 damage.

So, where will most of a caster dragon's damage come from? Melee abilities. For that, they give up one of the few advantages they have over melee. Notably, the only Power-based ability that does really good, constant damage is Spiked Scales. Unfortunately, that requires the caster to be hit, which is entirely counter productive to the supposed 'benefits' they get for being a caster. Gold Rage does more than any spell a caster can use, except possibly a Primal Cast Flameburst, which is unfortunately on a 5min cooldown. Like Spiked Scales, GR requires melee range, again giving up an advantage to being a caster. Even two of our AoE spells are melee range. I think there also might be a problem with the way spells gain damage for each point of power or primal you have, but havne't been able to thoroughly test it.

On a side note, caster's heals will be stronger - by 50 or so points. Breezes get stronger as you gain more power, then stop gaining strength no matter much of a stat you add. I think my Rejuvinating breeze refuses to go higher than 80 or so/tick.

In short: casters don't have a job because spells themselves are extremely lacking compared to the alternative. A boss mob catered to casters would be wonderful! Very low magic evasion would allow melee to cast Snarl to play a role in it.

[LOVWYRM]

Thank you for this post Alisto

That is exactly what I ment and what I was going for.