Should leaching be a crime???

[Poony666]

I think that powerleveling should be greatly restricted...If you don't do anything, then you get no XP...but I'd like to give another example of how PLing has affected me...

As a level 46, rating 66 druid, I was out fighting Topaz golems, able to take them down 1 at a time, maybe 2 if lucky, and learning the ins and outs of being a druid...all of my levels, save maybe 10 paladin levels (If that) I have gotten through soloing...

So here I am, fighting level 66-70 mobs, keeping about even with the spawn rate, when I see another player out of the corner of my eye...I look, and there stands a level 71, rating 80 something (I think, maybe high 70's) reaver with a level 36 battlemage and a level 28 ranger...this reaver the procedes to wipe out the spawn and take away all of my chances for decent XP...when I confronted him and his two tagalongs, I recieved nothing but greif from them...granted, I wasn't nice to begin with, but I think I was justified...the reaver couldn't expect to get any decent XP, and the two with him could barely hit the mobs they attacked, and the ranger was rather inneficient with her healers, not that they were needed at all...so here I am, looking at an empty spawn, all of my fun taken away for the night...

Powerleveling sucks...

Oh, by the way, the idea that you cannot get any XP from mobs 30 levels higher than yourself isn't a good idea, due to the fact that I figured out how to play druid efficiently and took myself from 50-56 in a couple days soloing emerald golems...but I could only take one at a time if lucky...

The first question that comes to my mind is, would you have reacted the same way if the guy came through and wiped the spawn out by himself without the tag alongs?

It would have effected you in exactly the same way, the exp he would have got there soloing still would have been half decent.

Oh and if you wernt nice to begin with i can see a reason for them not being nice in return, not trying to be a jerk just pointing out a fact.

[Blue Hasia]

whats the point of getting powered lvled if you dont learn how to fight...all you are after power lvl is done are a Big Sissy that lets other fight for them.

[Kulamata]

I liked Levity's post. I'm beginning to feel that too many players find a negative topic and tend to pile on, making a minor problem into a major thread.

After reading the above posts,I think it's pretty clear that most are against inexperienced players riding experienced players for xp. And I don't hear much objection to high rating players at low levels in high level groups. And I think the distinction is important. The inexperienced player is not learning how to play the game; the high rating player on his 3rd or 4th Century does, and gains nothing but tedium at lower levels.

And still. A while back, on Elnath I met a dragon played by a very young player, 9 years old in RL I think. A little red dragon. He loved the game, and wanted desperately to level, so he could experience being a higher level dragon (higher than 20 that is) before his father discontinuedtheir sub in a week. He even got a pile of techs and such and made some real money; got nice scales for his level and was, indeed, gone in a week.

These are people, with all the variation that people have; hasten not to generalize.

[Safire]

I have no problem with a toon being 10 lvls maybe 20 below lvl huntin in a group as long as they help out heal if you can try to attack if you can, take your lumps. Play the game.

heck i could do better then what you say should be called leaching SOLO before merge no problem and then again before merge with a tank (or any meat shield really) i could take marrows
leaching is not a problem there are people who ave problems with getting exp with mobs the same level (and untill i recentally found resistand fyakki's) i could get maybe 1k exp and need 250k exp to level look leaching only happens becuase it takes days to level soloing for some now and with groups around my level weeks so when im with high levels im working as a healer i guess since im effectively healing them im not leaching

[Tharali]

Powerleveler - I dislike them exept they are casual players (1-2h a day) and do it on their own or with their guildies (without leeching from others). btw: most PL'ers i came across do behave very rude.

Leecher - Sorry but they're just dumb in my opinion!
- They are spamming the chats with "Someone want to group? Need lvl's"; "Low Lvl lfg 80+"; "*ding* lvl5 / *ding* lvl10 / *ding* lvl 20..."
- They are rude to you if you decline to PL them- They don't know how to use their abilities or how to fight in a group
- They don't know about Istarian lore / NPC's / Locations / Events / Quests...
- They are the No.1 whiners
- They get bored in a blink of an eye
- They quit HZ and tell others what a crappy game HZ is and that the community is a bunch of s..t.

These points do apply for some PL'ers, too because the only things they know about are the wash, rinse, repeat things they do.


[hr]
To those who are telling that Powerlevelers or Leechers don't affect others gameplay, here are some example how it affects others gameplay.

A player asks (/tell) a high lvl crafter (only one online/able to make) to craft him a weapon or whatsoever.
Answers given: "No time, doing work for the pawn :D"; "It's to low, don't get xp from that, bye!" or even no answer even if you're standing right by his side and he is moving.

A player asks other player to group because the WA or other boss mob is attacking a town or because of any other event.
Answers given: "Can't do, farming tech trophies for consi"; "pfff, Marrows are easier xp!" "Why should i? I get more money from Expert forms!"

When hunting...
A high Lvl char is coming in, sweeps the whole spot and when asked to leave a mob for you to hunt on, you get answers like:
"Hehe :P"; "Go away if you don't like it"; "noob..." "It's my spot, leave" or you're being ignored.

Economy...
Less/No "Newbie" (1-20) items on consignment or flooding consigners with things at dumping prices; Things given to Newbies for free because it's so easy to craft them.


[hr]
But the worst thing i've seen yet:
CHAT
Char (Lvl~55) - "Any newbies here want to leech?"
Newbie1 (2) - "Yes, what u hunt (lvl)?"
Newbie2 (6) - "what is leech?"
Other - "leech - gettin xp for sitting around"
Newbie2 - "cewl, Char where are you?"
Char - "Location, hunting mobs (50-60) but mostly 55-60 because xp ;D"
Newbie3 (12) - "count me in!"

I told them that leeching IMHO is like using steroids and they won't see the low level content that way and that they maybe will be bored very early and starting to whine because there is nothing to do at their mega powerleveled Lvl.

One of them said "Oh, you're right, maybe i should group with some at my lvl."The others just laughed at me or said other "nice" things.
I have seen them a few mins later (Char + 4-6 Newbies)
I have seen one of those Newbies (lvl6) 2 days later (lvl32)...

[hr]
PJ wrote:
Its just my opinion but if you're in a group fighting mobs 30 (maybe 40) ratings (not levels) higher than you are, you're leeching. You should get no exp for that large or larger of a disparity. Also currently the max exp you can get is 1/10 the level. This should be lowered to say 1/20 or 1/25. Even a level 20 with a super high rating shouldn't level up with one group pull.

As a Ranger (Lvl: 65 Rating: 68) i'm able to solo the one or other mob type with a rating 20-25 above mine.
In a group of 4-6 (rating ~ 65-70) we might be able to kill a mob ~30-40 above ours and i wouldn't call that leeching (would be a very tough fight anyways).

I think it's more the difference between lowest and highest rating of the groupmembers. For example: 3 members @ 10 and 2 Members @ 40 / difference - 30 That's more what i call "leeching".
And thats why i seldom hunt with my "Big" guildies, because i feel a bit useless there. When there is an guildevent or official event then you can count on me! I will be there doing best i can even if i only do 4points dmg every 10 hits or it is just doing runner jobs for days.



FYI - I'm playing HZsince Beta (US&EU)and have seen many things like those above and since shard merge hits, there's more and more PL'ing/Leeching
(Playtime since release ~60h Adv.: RNG-65 DRU-40 CLRC-15 Craft.:WVR 43 OUT-36 SPL-26 BLK-23) some would call me a fanboi nowbut trust me, i'm not even close to that what you call a fanboi.



excuse my spelling/grammar mistakes, english isn't my mother tongue -maybe you like to correct the text and send it to me via PM!? [;)]

[Spellbound]

It's odd that in every MMO I have played there is always people crying for nerfs, or crying that something should not be allowed to happen, and on and on and on.

Early in this game, people would cry that one class was stronger then their class, so nerf the stronger class. Result, players with the now nerfed class quit the game and moved on to another game.

Early on players cryed that it was too hard to level and took too long to level, so AE adds in better group exp and multi enemy exp. Because low and behold some people want that uber biped with ratings of 2 gazillion and just about every adventure class there is. But there is a side effect to this system. That side affect is power leveling. Well you can't have it both ways! But now that some have their uber character, they don't want others to have their uber characters. So now it's time to nerf the group and multi enemy exp.

I myself have helped other players level, including my wife, who just started this game over a month ago, why, so she could be with me when I go hunt. And she plays her character of which she has only played a little over a month, better then some of you that have played your character a whole year!

[Levity]

Well, looks like my gentle hint about the spelling has been ignored. Not a big deal, but it's distracting me from the valid points on either side of the debate. So permit me this brief hijack:

All of you I humbly beseech
if you are within the reach
of the words of this my speech
listen to what I have to teach

I sit here under this leafy beech
biting into a juicy peach
watching waves roll in on the beach
while the sun fades my clothes like bleach

The slimy black bloodsucker's a _leech_
it lives in its own natural niche
so please don't spell it "leach"
no such thing will crawl in your breeches.

I now return this thread to the regularly scheduled debate :)

-Levity Merrel

[Nisse]

I have no serious aversions to leeching, I will take fellow guildmates along with me when I'm doing quests. I let them have the loot, or we divide it up afterwards. They get a few levels or such and I get some help. We both get some companionship and company out in the wilds. What really does piss me off is when there's someone who joins a group and does not fight. Even when asked to help, they do not respond and just stand there, then loot when the fight is over. Imo, if you can heal, please do--any little bit of hp helps, and can sometimes mean the difference between a dp or not. If you think you can't hit, then try to use some buffs or do a little bit of support. A good group is one that works well together and in which each member supports the others. Again, let me add a disclaimer, not attacking anyone, just generalizing and taking from experiences.

[Bori Grimbattle]

Let people play the way they want to play. I have no problems with those that want to rush through the lower levels. They pay for their sub and there is no PvP in this game. We do not compete against each other.

Don't want a leecher in your group? Don't invite him in or kick him out.
Somebody standing around not doing anything but looting? Kick him out.
Somebody coming through clearing out spawns? Wait..they will soon move on and you will still be there.
Somebody doesn't know how to play the game? So what? It is their game. It is not you that is going to suffer from it.
Do not like to be asked to P/L someone? Just say no. It is not that hard and does not tkae that much effort.
I have seen people complain that others were buying trophies to level on. So what? They pay for the right to play that way if they choose.

As long as it does not go against the game rules then what is the problem? I cannot think of one way that anybody powerlevelling has affected me in any way. One HONEST to goodness way and not just some gripe for the sake of griping.

I don't powerlevel and I do not power level anyone other then in the case of getting the last few levels I needed to get "Shining Blades" prior to merge and I went out with friens and Guildies and took my lumps along with them.

We all have the ability to choose who we hunt with and who we associate with in the game. The only ones that should have any reason to complain about somebody out levelling you through any "legal" means would be those in a broken class and even that should be tempered. Play your game and let others play the way they wish unless you want to pay for their subs. C'set la vie.


And that folks is my 2 copper worth.

[Poony666]

I myself have helped other players level, including my wife, who just started this game over a month ago, why, so she could be with me when I go hunt. And she plays her character of which she has only played a little over a month, better then some of you that have played your character a whole year!

Same as with us, we "leech" although we like to call it PL'ing to be able to hunt together when we play, same as our guildmates, we help eachother out, though more for fun than anything, just being with the group and BS'ing is the fun part, when we go hunting as a guild we dont go for the exp so player lvls dont particularly matter to us, unless we are purposley trying to help someone reacha goal, for example thier RoP. However sometimes when we are on our guild hunts a player may go afk (we all have personaly lives, kids etc. to deal with), if this player happened to be a lower lvl character, passers by would imeddiately assume that we are "leeching" or atleast that character is, when that is NOT the case, people need to assume ALOT less, there maybe circumstances behind it that you dont understand.

When it comes down to it, we are all playing under the same limitations AE has set, they set the exp drop-offs for fighting higher lvl monsters, if you think they are too low then its thier fault not the players. When people go out and verbally attack someone for "leeching" it makes me sick, you cannot blame someone for trying to get the quickest exp they can, its not thier fault that they CAN do it.

You may think its wrong, but they may just be having some fun. think of it this way, your talking about them "ruining" it for you, well when you ********** about it at them, you are RUINING thier gameplay, does that make you just as bad? i guess not eh.

Sure there are some people out there who are jerks about it, there will always be people like this in every aspect of everything....

The funny thing is, is that if there was a "nerf" to which a lower lvl player cant gain from higher mobs, you would find people like my wife and I hunting in low lvl mob areas with me being a low lvl adv and her being a high lvl adv. My wife would then proceed to clear out the entire spawn, why? because we are selfish jerks? no, because it would be the only way for me to gain....then everyone will be btiching about there being no low lvl mobs in thata rea because we have killed them all.

Whatever you do people are going to be unhappy, cant keep us all happy, sucks doesnt it...

Me personally, i dont care if they change it to the suggestions above, aslong as i can still play im happy, we'll find a way to keep having fun, i just pity the people who are playing this game and are getting more frustrated than having fun.

All im saying is please dont ruin it for the people who aren't "abusing" the system and just want some fun...

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

Well, looks like my gentle hint about the spelling has been ignored

No offense...but seriously...what is with people's need to dictate proper spelling to other people??

The thread is about leeching. It is not about spelling and grammar, and also take into mind that for some here, english is a second language.
I think it's rather inane to point out someones spelling errors, not to mention slightly insulting to them if they are trying to spell correctly but a language is hard for them. Also some people have literacy issues and don't need them publicly pointed out on a forum.

[Levity]

Please do me the grace of quoting the parts where I say it is not a big deal, just distracting to me. Note that I put some smilies in. And that I gave an object lesson in the confusing variations in possible spellings via that silly poem. And that I conceded it was a brief hijack of the thread (to which I have already contributed an on-point response).

I did not point at anyone in particular, nor did I ridicule anyone. Not everyone is a great speller, some even have literacy issues or dyslexia. Yet spelling and grammar happen to be things I do well, although I will deliberately depart from them sometimes, especially in emails and online postings where I am trying to sound more like I am conversing. So mistakes in them grate on me the way my singing grates on anyone with any sense of pitch or key :).

Those who are congenitally unable to spell -- that's not their fault. Those who simply don't know the correct spelling but wish to learn -- I have provided them with the information.

I am sorry if anyone thought I was laughing at them. Clearly you, Silvanathan, *do* know good grammar and spelling. Thus you should feel no personal insult. It is mighty nice of you to take up the gauntlet for those you think *might* be offended, but perhaps preemptive.

Yours,
Levity

PS to stay slightly on topic, I will reiterate that I don't mind how others play. The impact of "leechers" on my enjoyment of the game is so minimal as to be nonexistent.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

Someone wishing they were moderator perhaps, so they could play the role of grammar police?

Look, since you're too insipid to understand my post; it doesn't matter what your intent was, it was rude of you to police the thread pointing your finger and shrieking about grammar, regardless of whether you put smilies in or not, your input was not welcome nor needed since it did not pertain to the subject matter at hand; which was LEECHING.

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

Those who are congenitally unable to spell -- that's not their fault. Those who simply don't know the correct spelling but wish to learn -- I have provided them with the information.
.

Hmmm...well, my dear, since you're so bent on giving grammar lesson, why don't you start a new thread in OFF TOPIC, called grammar lessons 101 by Levity; and all the tons of people who you think desire your input can be taught how to correctly articulate themselves on forums.

;)

My apologies to Jayle for somewhat hijacking his thread.

[Lachewpacabra]

Might I also suggest we get this thread back on topic? Thanks!

...and if you do see fit to discuss grammar policing, and can do it in a manner that is relatively non-confrontational, by all means start a new thread and explore this topic.

[Kulamata]

I do agree with Bori and Poony. This is not a good time to be forming vigilante posses, to root out playstyles we don't personally care for. We are a small community, under siege, and we need to pull together, not finding reasons to dump on someone.

<whispers> And I injoied the humerus spieling lessen.

[LaughingOtter]

At some point or other, we're all going to do something that annoys someone else. It's the way of things.

I remember, sometime back, reading a comment that Frodo had gotten twinked out with a magic sword & uber armor at first level, then Gandalf & Aragorn took him to Moria to PL him.

Xena was obviously letting Gabrielle leech off of her, and that turned out ok. Indiana Jones once PL'ed his own father a couple levels of warrior, after Dr. JonesSr. decidedthat he was sick of levelling scholar and wanted a break.

Killstealing & spawn camping happen all the time without leeching being involved. It doesn't make a difference if the person pulling every mob in the area is PLing people or hunting solo - they're being fundamentally selfish, regardless of reason. Likewise, just because someone got PLed to a high level doesn't mean they're going to get bored & quit. Set a good example and tell them what they're missing. After all, there wouldn't have been much of a trilogy if Elrond's response to Frodo had been "I don't group with n00bs."

[Silvanathan Shadowbane]

Set a good example and tell them what they're missing. After all, there wouldn't have been much of a trilogy if Elrond's response to Frodo had been "I don't group with n00bs."

LOL!

[:D]

[Peaches]

Please stay on topic, which is leeching, remember, reread the roc if you need to refresh yourself on conduct for posting. Thread locked

[Vesuvius]

This is really starting to sound like it should be in rants. So far, it hasnt been much more than people griping over 'leeching' and those who state they dont really care.

Powerleveling, leeching, instauber - call it what you will, it isnt something that game mechanics are meant to solve nor is it an issue the devs should waste time trying to. So far, there have been nothing but complaints about various issues people have with it that either a) Have no real impact on the person griping or b) Could have been avoided completely.

Saying "XXX pulled all the monsters and killed them so there was nothing for me to kill as he let someone leach off of him" - Regardless of someone being there to leech experience, it makes no difference. This is an invalid point.

Saying "XXX is high level and has no concept of the game whatsoever" - So what. What does that have to do with you? You dont have to group with that person and them not understanding how to play their own class only hurts themself. If they quit after a month because of it, thats their loss. This is another invalid point.

Saying "XXX was leveled up to 100x5 in a month and I had to do it the hard way" - Big deal. You have the satisfaction of actually playing and progressing your character, that person does not. Claiming that this ruins your playing experience is just being spiteful, lacking any real tangible impact on you.