So, what's wrong with grouping?

[Jah]

All classes are not equal at soloing, nor should they be. Some classes abilities are group oriented vs other classes whoose abilities are stronger but self only. Just as some mobs are group oriented and not meant to be soloed [ linked leader mobs like Kwellen ].

"It's true that we all need comps."
Definately, techs are a big boost to skills/attributes. I do think some are confusing the line between 'want' and 'need':

"Wiped off all 3 by energized kwellen and co....They require generous group with uber multiclassers....Isn't it a bit elitist as a requirement? Considering I still need more hundreds of those drops? I calculated that I need from 7.5 to 8 gold to buy them off Vielos."
"Right now, I just need the very rare comps for my t5 armour and jewellery... the total is 1.9g off the veilo."
I am sureall playerswould like to have every piece ofT5 equipment 3xTech5. I don't think anyone 'needs' that much teching. If it is that much of a hardship make due with Tech4 on the hard to gather reagents. Unlike 1 implied; tech3 is not useless on Tier5.3xTech3/Tech4 on your Tier5 equipment is far more valuable than0xTech5s you don't have the components for.

[AA0]

I went out hunting the WA again last night, if a dragon could kill poorly there before, they will be pretty incapable now. The WA mobs now group, yes... AE turned them social, if they weren't hard enough solo. You pull one mob and the 3 others around it comes running (they aren't grouped, just social).

There are lots more zombie ogres though...

If you didn't need t5 teched armour before, you sure do now. WTG AE

[Anikitos]

I went out hunting the WA again last night, if a dragon could kill poorly there before, they will be pretty incapable now. The WA mobs now group, yes... AE turned them social, if they weren't hard enough solo. You pull one mob and the 3 others around it comes running (they aren't grouped, just social).

There are lots more zombie ogres though...

If you didn't need t5 teched armour before, you sure do now. WTG AE

For a very long timesome of them travel in group and others alone.
Those mobs in group, if you attack one the rest will attack you.
The mobs that walk solo you can pull safely if you are little carefull.

So now you saying that now they aggro, even though outside group.
Have not seen this in Unity yet but even that happens i cant say I object.
If you attack a mob that is near another mob it should aggro you imo.

Anikitos




EDIT
This is a good change that makes sense. WA mobs should not be stupid sheep.
Good work AE.

[AA0]

The WA shouldn't be stupid, but fighting 3 or 4 at once for a person isn't possible.
Plus all the WA have a HoT and a few other stuns which are unbalancing.

I have no problem taking a few in a group, but they have to be fair, as they stand now... its not possible to solo out there, you have to sit and wait until one is far enough away from the others, so your attack doesn't get noticed by the other mobs. Then you have to run in, pull and run back to the shore (if you don't have a ranged attack)

[Larus-Fel]

i can agree to the unbalancing on the WA mobs.. was doing teir IV comps for a set for a good friend.. and from 1 maruader. .IE guardian.. he used petrify on 4 seperate counters.. was using it every 12 seconds.. which is completely..... *fill in word here* rediculous.. never got a hit/claw off on the mob. and died before i could get away or do anything

[Gunnyr]

Aamer,
There is a main difference between community and forced grouping. Community is a built trust making friends and newfound family...this happens both in guilds and in normal gameplay. Forced grouping is just lumping alot of players with different playstyles together for a common cause more often than not. Forced grouping causes problems quite often due to the lack of trust not being there.

Mostly I hunt with my GF and with our guildmates due to them being people I trust with a very similar playstyle.

As for mobs, I have a belief I find in common with quite a few people I have spoken with of late.

A single player should always have at least a 50% chance of defeating a mob his own rating and level. That chance should drop as more monsters are added to theequation but not so much as to make it an impossibility to survive. As pointed out earlier, the WA mobs in the Western Blight are a prime example of this. They not only force grouping but can kill opponents twice thier level in seconds. They are far from being the tier 3 creatures they're claimed to be.

Some may say that you don't need to face these mobs or that you can always get thier tech components off the Vielo but for many of us that's just not the case. Some of us have never seen a gold in our long lives here [;)] 11 months now here for me.

[Aamer Khan]

ok... I see that point and can agree.

However, I have return to the topic, and say further, that the problem in not the game but what players do with the game.

All that those of us with a slightly different view are trying to say is that the way around this "problem" has been provided. It's like those that don't like to craft, complaining about how the crafters have all the money. What stops them from doing the same besides their own actions? It's hard for many of us that craft AND adventure to have much empathy, when the solution has been in game all along. If you choose to not take advantage of part of the games natural play, then should you not have to deal with the consequences of that choice?

As an example: My wife does NOT adventure. She only crafts. So far, after playing a bit over 5 months, she has made just over a gold. Her highest craft level is 58 fitter that she reached only recently. She does have to limit where she goes... and it does take longer than in the easy to mine areas. So it is possible with crafters.

And I can say that if you are a adventure player only, there are MANY places to hunt mobs solo and make plenty of cash. Yes, at lower levels its not vast sums, but you will easily afford what you need. Treandalar ice blights, lesser meatblights, etc... drop money, and comps, and forms and techs. Abandonded Island mobs as well, and mobs on newbie islands.

It is doable. Grouping is NOT forced. But learning the game, and where resources are, is whats forced, just like in any game.There are choices to make and consequences.

[magius]

hope this isnt to off topic but I find the biggest problem with grouping is finding a good group.

[Vito]

ok... I see that point and can agree.

However, I have return to the topic, and say further, that the problem in not the game but what players do with the game.

All that those of us with a slightly different view are trying to say is that the way around this "problem" has been provided. It's like those that don't like to craft, complaining about how the crafters have all the money. What stops them from doing the same besides their own actions? It's hard for many of us that craft AND adventure to have much empathy, when the solution has been in game all along. If you choose to not take advantage of part of the games natural play, then should you not have to deal with the consequences of that choice?

As an example: My wife does NOT adventure. She only crafts. So far, after playing a bit over 5 months, she has made just over a gold. Her highest craft level is 58 fitter that she reached only recently. She does have to limit where she goes... and it does take longer than in the easy to mine areas. So it is possible with crafters.

And I can say that if you are a adventure player only, there are MANY places to hunt mobs solo and make plenty of cash. Yes, at lower levels its not vast sums, but you will easily afford what you need. Treandalar ice blights, lesser meatblights, etc... drop money, and comps, and forms and techs. Abandonded Island mobs as well, and mobs on newbie islands.

It is doable. Grouping is NOT forced. But learning the game, and where resources are, is whats forced, just like in any game.There are choices to make and consequences.

Agreed. I am a solo crafter and enjoy a group when adventuring. I have found nothing I can't gather because of mobs. Do I have to gather smart and be aware of what is around me while crafting? You bet! When Hurl Chunks and Avalanche abound and the sky suddenly turns gray with thunder and lightning; me thinks danger is nearby. It won't make me quit gathering but it sure uhhh makes me think about a different spot.[;)]

[Aamer Khan]

Exactly friend!

[Bori Grimbattle]

They can design the game so every MoB can be taken solo.
They can design the game so every MoB needs a group.

Or they can try and balance it with a bit of both. In each of the first two casesthey will have fewer that will wish to play such a game whereas in the latter casethey will draw more to play.

Yetthey will never satisfy everyone and should not be expected to. There will always be those whose pride dictates that they HAVE to be able to solo the Vorpal Bunny of Doom for bragging rights and then complain "I had the Singing Sword of Porky Pig and Quintuple tech'd Armor of the the Coyote and I could not kill it."

On the other hand there will be those that will hide under their beds and moan and gnash their teethif they cannot get a group just in case by the slightest possible chance they should stumble across the Vorpal Bunny.

If I cannot kill it solo I die or move on.
If I cannot get a group I kill what I can solo.
If I cannot find the comp I need solo I group or barter/trade/buy it.
If I cannot kill it grouped then I run......fast.
If I am still unhappy I find another game.

All choices. All mine to make so I can live with those choices. I made them. [;)]

[Jah]

This is a good change that makes sense. WA mobs should not be stupid sheep.
Good work AE.

Most definately.

The WA mobs now group, yes... AE turned them social, if they weren't hard enough solo. You pull one mob and the 3 others around it comes running (they aren't grouped, just social).
If you didn't need t5 teched armour before, you sure do now. WTG AE

The following is not meant as a boast or flame,it reallyboggles my mind why you cant solo them. We have similar char builds, though you have a fewmore levels. I am not liveing on drains [ don't use ToL ]. I just use my bolt and paroxysm from spirit line. Youseem far better set up [ class wise ]to solo than I:

Healer 97 / Bloodmage 90 and some stuff under lv20.
I have lv61 armor with T3 techs, use Tier3/4 jewelery with T3 techs, use Tier4 heals with T3 techs,my lv90 imp spiritbolt5 has T3 techs, etc..
I ownno equipment teched with tier4/5 techs and have 1 spellthat is [ Bloodbolt4 ]. Can solo crimson scourge and eliteWA in east blight..
Could solothe current WA at deadlands at lvs 90/84.
[ noroot/stun/snare/mez/multicast ]

Youcan castroot/snare/stuns/multicast/growth2 and if in Ranger classstun arrows/energize/cloak of thorns/growth3. I realise your nature is only 7/lv, but you only need crowd control when things go bad and I assumeyou haveperfect spell [ if not that is an easily fixed problem ]. With base 1000str you should be doing decent archer damage. 9 bow/xbow skill per lv and 8 dex per lev, butwith trains and techs I am guessing that you have 1100+ current skill?

Some suggestions [ most of which you likely do already ].
*Always pull with Dispirit foe when adds to your pullmay be an issue [ no damage - doesnt alert others as easily as an attack ]. Always use it in1 on 1 combat regardless of how you pull.
*Assumeing that you use a bow as Ranger and an xbow as healer...untrain bow/xbow and train the other when changeing classes[ unless for short period ].
*Take conjuror up 4 more levels (44) and receive a +10 weapon damage buff as well as engulf2 which can keep healing adds concerned with themselves and not your target [ minimal dot damage is a major distraction to most healing mobs ].
*When soloing WA in deadlands don't do it from north side [mostly groups] solo on south side. There are large no spawn zones you can stay at the edge of and pull to.
*use evasive style as often as it is available and get/use foresight if you don't have it.
*hit growth when you pull.

You obviously know the core conceptof pulling "wait until one is far enough away from the others, so your attack doesn't get noticed by the other mobs". If youwait on the mob with reagents and ignore others, I suggest picking off strays to thin area.

[Aamer Khan]

Wonderful post Jah!

Not only do you acknowledge a problem, but offer very constructive ( and informitive ) solutions to work the problem.

Well done Sir!

[thefatone]

Can anyone direct me to theVorpal Bunny of Doom? [:D] I have an explosive carrott for him.

[AA0]

I don't think you know enough about rangers and fightin in the WA, that besides the point... I am not talking about me... everyone ALWAYS assumes that, just because everyone else here only talks about themselves, doesn't mean I do.
I can solo there, but now its is VERY VERY slow and deadly with mobs grouping.

A ranger doesn't pull with dispirit because a ranger uses their lightning arrows and range to stay alive. We do not do well without those arrows and keeping them out of melee range is very important. The effect of lightning arrows is similar to dispirit anyways, no need to put it up twice.

I know about taking conjurer up to get inflix, it will be done soon. Later to get inflix 2/multi2 and flame/ice attack V.

Evasive style on most of the mobs out there is a joke, the mages make no difference, and there are a few with low melee skill but high dodge, if I use evasive style there my CoT hits less, and there is no other way to hit them. If things get bad, we use flurry to live, usually its an offense ability, but out there you need to save it for when stuff goes bad, evasive style and flurry are on the same timer.

Using growth when pulling seems smart, but in a 2-3 min fight, and only low tiers of growth the results are craptacular. A smarter move is to pull from max range and hit with lightning arrows to slow them down and not reach you as long as possible.

Casting roots is good when you pull multiple mobs by accident, but since they have ranged stuns you are pretty close to dead by the time you get out of them. Not to mention waiting for perfect spell to hit first because you don't often hit a mob with 7/lvl magic skill.

And finally even with 1000 base strength, I do horrible damage out there. The mages I might hit for 95, but the shamans are more like 45. I guarantee you, in healer or bloodmage you do a tremendous amount more damage than I. A ranger without my fitter levels would not do 45-50, they would do under 20 damage a hit... cloak of thorns and healing is the only way to beat those things.

That pretty much sums up why a elar or ranger will have problems there. I am first to admit that ranger is probably the best soloing class out there, but if I have problems with a character designed to be durable and survivable, others have it worse.
I can imagine a dragon and monk giving up after many DPs. A caster class probably does fine out there, as magic seems to hit a bit easier to most mobs.

[Pharcellus]

I can't hunt in the deadlands or on the Satyr islands solo. Not that I think that is a major problem in and of itself, it goes back to the broken nature of my race/class. I have hunted in groups out there, and most of the time we are hunting bugs. We have tried hunting vetern undead in a small group, but I don't last long without a healer. I can kill some of the mobs solo, but I am almost always near death with one, and an add usually will kill me unless I have the chance to escape with a breeze up (ie, not stunned/mezzed out of my gourd).

As such, Veteran Skeleton Sternums are bought off of the Vielo, since they are rare to begin with, used in popular techs, thus no one ever has any to sell. The last time we went hunting specifically for them, a 6-hour hunt netted 7 between all the group members. I don't think they are worth spending weeks and weeks of hunting time in a forced group. I can make enough money in one day to buy all the ones I need, even at the Vielo's ripoff prices. God help me when Nadia dies or goes on walkabout like Seldon.

[Finduilas]

Disclaimer* rather long, but don't reply if you skimmed it, no point really.

Soloing Vs Grouping:

Why solo?[*]Some people solo simply because they want to, they prefer it, perhaps they don't like working in a team, or are simply anti-social.[*]Others solo through necessity. If you are of school/college age you will probably have lots of spare time to play. I have read of 1 person that is physically disabled hence they have plenty of time at home to play online. But if you have a full time job, 10-12 hour working day when you include travel time, a house to run, cleaning, cooking etc, then you may be reduced to 3-4 hours per week night. If you are married andhave children you can reduce this even further. You might not be able to commit to a group when you need to look after children, you could be called away at any moment. You might not have time to get a group together;it can take 10-15 minutes for guildies to all stop what they were doing and port to staging point;and more time to get to the mobs (WD is quite a run from anywhere).[*]You may have a social life, circle of friends that don't play computer games, a variety of hobbies; a film you want to watch on TV, a book you want to read, somewhere you want to go, a girl/boyfriend to visit. Logging in may be just one of the things to do in your spare time. Perhaps you want to login for an hour, kill some mobs, before going out for a meal, or something.[/list]

So why play a "multiplayer" game when you can't group that often?
[*]Single player games have more depth, better stoylines, more personalised development, but they are also static, rigid, dead.[*]MMORPGs have a dev team that doesn'tjust write one post-release patch to fix bugs, but whole rafts of new content. This gives the game life, a sense of evolution, change, growth.[*]Add in the players that provide a level of interaction that game AI can only dream about. Compare the group you control in Baldur's Gate to one you join in an mmorpg.[*]Having others in the same game world adds to the immersion, gives you a sense of purpose, someone to share your experiences with. Not just by grouping, but by "dinging" your guildies when you level, or by linking that new item you just made, or bought.[*]Even if you always solo to are still linked to your guild, can join in the chat, answer questions from new players, trade with other players, buy/sellfrom/to the general community. You can contribute to your guild with advice, money, items, or by joining events.[*]THAT'S why casual gamers play multiplayer games instead of singleplayer.[/list]

So, what about forced grouping?

SOE loves forced grouping. In EQ2, once you get pastthe baby levels pretty everything is designed to need a group. What solo content exists at about lvl 15 onwards consists of a few solo mobs in a few locations. I would say that about 85-90% of the content (mobs, quests, droppable stuff) requires you to group; this means that as soon as you login you must start looking for a group, or otherwise not bother playing, cos soloing, although possible, is far too frustrating and slow.

That's fine if you have 5-6 hours ahead of you to look for a group, then stay in it, grinding out mobs in dungeon like it's doom 3 or something. But if you want to pop in, play a bit, then log off and go cook dinner, or spend time with the kids, then you can forget it.

That's forced grouping, and I hate it.

Horizons however has always had lot's of solo content. If the game now needs group-only mobs, because some players (those with more time to play) have become extremely powerful thenthat's a shame, but a natural game development. But I don't see why content for powergamers/groupers cannot be added, to give them a challenge, and not impact too heavily on casualgamers. There is a difference between content that a casual gamer can eventually enjoy, just much later than a powergamer, and content thatONLY a powergamer can do.

In Everquest you had epic quests. To complete the quests you needed to kill at least 4 different godlike mobs, all of whichrequired a raid-sized force. Since a raid would typically last 4-5 hours a casual gmaer could only try at the weekend, and even if they kill the mob it might not drop what they need. A great deal of the content in EQ was like that and no matter how long a casualgamer played they'd never complete the quests.

That is different to being able to solo a mob eventually and get what you need, although a powergamer will have done it months earlier.

The nearest thing to epic gear in HZ incurrently triple teched T5 stuff.If it's the intent of AE, and the will of the players, that this gear be rare, then forcing people to group toaquire it is perhaps acceptable. But, from what I read, there are still class imbalances, meaning some classes can solo the mobs, others can't.

I write all this as a casual gamer that soloed during the week (1-2 hours per night spare time) but grouped with the guild at the weekend. I enjoyed both styles of play. If I had my wish though, I'd prefer group specific content, related to quests, because hunting for reagents, or merely exp, is way too much of a grind in HZ, bashing on the same bunch of mobs for ages.I'd like to see:[*]Raidsfor guilds.[*]Quests, and mobs you need to kill with a group, thatdo not just reward one player. They have those in EQ2[*]Guild quests, to earn something for the guild; guildhouse add-ons, guild buff items, like the old banner quests.[*]Group only areas that you port to, with bonus exp in those places and unique challenges, such as multi spawns, waves of mobs; in EQ you have a clickable war event, kill a boss mob and his minions charge into town to ransack it. Youneed to protect the town, and a reward isgiven for success.[/list]

My biggest gripe with the current game is the lack of regular mobs due to spawning problems and the difficulty of soloing the WA. At level 75 the deadpool is too easy and gives no exp, and the WD and aug battleground is just too tough cos the mobs are same level but fight as tho 20 levels higher. I wouldn't mind the WA being group only if I could find eonough solo mobs.

[Phillip]

nothing wrong with grouping except those who wish the game to cater to just that.

most are EQ rejects who's been brainwashed to love forced group. they usually use the "it's a MMORPG" mantra, which is senseless.

combat, is only a fraction of what a MMORPG is.

[Korial]

Go play an archer, go join random "pick up" groups, and after a few kills ask the meleers if they're willing to give you a chance to loot. For the NA players, imagine there's different languages in the mix.

That's one thing that's wrong with grouping. I'm designed to kill at range, but (rightly so) looting at range isn't possible.

[Vahrokh]

I second that.