Your opinions on Dwarven Toughness and Damage Shields?

[Dvergar]

Let me get this straight: You are complaining because Dwarven Toughness is too WEAK??? Make a human and use Human Magical Apptitude and then keep on saying Toughness is too weak. I don't think Apptitude is too weak; I think Toughness is way to strong.

The question here is not, whether DT is too powerfull or not, but the stealth-nerf (or bug?) of disabling the effect of the damage shields while using toughness. Due to the missing conecpt for the races, many players didn't choose a race bcause of the race, but because of the ability. Dwarves for the toughness, Sslik for the regen, and dragons for the flying. They didn't choose the race, but the ability, and that was he mistake AE made. And regarding humans: well, humans are only humans, and dwarves are special (as race, not regarding the ingame ability) [:P]

There are a couple of unlogic changes (like, why would the empire build smelters in the field, but ignore the need for anvils, or spiders as tall as a group of gnomes dodging an attack), that are just there to make the game easier/harder.

If someone is using cloak of thorns as damage shield, that means that this one is covered in thorns. So, these thorns will damage anyone *hitting* this person, no matter how much damage is dealt to the cloaked target. Same goes for the dragons spiked scales. If a lvl 100 dragonwith spiked scales would be in the middle of some lowlevel mobs, that hit, but deal no damage due the thick armor scales, they still are to be damaged by the spiked scale.

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]gopher65 wrote: That's not true Macro. When my lvl 98 ranger goes and casts Dispirit on a lvl 10 golem, it attacks me and is killed by my damage shield, even though it is doing 0 damage to me. Or that's how it was aseveral months ago. Maybe it was changed.

It was definately changed, as it did not act that way one year ago.

I don't know, if it was like that exactly one year ago, as I was busy on crafting that time, but half a year ago, this was exactly the case. As a tank (Paladin) with socketed swords and pulsing spectrum II crystals (lvl 55)I know this pretty well.Get aggro from a group of mobs with the pulsing spectrum activated (2h timer by that time), choose toughness, and see them crumble to half their hitpoints while you don't get a scratch.

And ok, maybe harden shell doesn't affect spirit spells that much, but I don't have such a high spiritist to compare it yet. On the current level, the spirit damage is equally zero as the melee one...

[gopher65]

Maybe it is as Macro says: at release damage shields would only do damage if you were being damaged. Perhaps AE bugged the system that would set the damage shield to 0. Then a couple months ago they fixed it again. That seems logical to me.

What do you all think? Maybe we could get a dev to post here.

[Vesuvius]

i think swinging your axe (or any other weapon) should work while Dwarven Toughness does it job.. and an even simpler thing dealing damagepassivley with a damage shield i can't see why this should not work.

The same reason a dragon cant fly midair and cast things on the mobs below.DT is overpowered, even in its current state.

The ability is clearly a defensive one, not offensive. You combine DT with a high level multicast/burnout + an AoE chain and its devastating, making damage shields work with it again is even more overpowering.DT blows the other racial abilities out of the water by a longshot.

[Fireclaw]

Due to the missing conecpt for the races, many players didn't choose a race bcause of the race, but because of the ability. ...and dragons for the flying.

That may apply to those whose dragons are low level adult-alts, but most of the players I've talked to whose main characters are dragons chose dragon for the race, not for the ability of flight.

Flight is merely part of being a dragon... but I play a dragon so I could be a dragon. If I had the choice of playing a dragon or a winged biped that had all the flying ability of a dragon, I'd still pick the dragon.

[Vahrokh]

Me too.

It's a lifetime I wait to play a dragon. Even if he did not fly at all.

[Jaraiden]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Jaraiden wrote: Are you sure Dwarven Toughness is working?

Dwarven Toughness:
When used it allows the dwarf to ignore the next melee attack of the monster they are fighting. This special ability has a delay value of 40 and a recycle time of 5:00

http://www.istaria.com/page.php?pg=c...mp;mid=Dwarves

^^ the next melee attack

You are making it sound like its duration is over 1 second (or the length of one melee attack).
That is an old description, Dwarven Toughness no longer works this way. Dwarven Toughness prevents all physical damage for 30 seconds.

The description is a current one posted on their website - thus the duration should be reduced to 2 seconds. We all know some fights END in 30 seconds, clearly not the intent of Dwarven Toughness to be used in such an offensive manner. For the fun of it, I created a Dwarf to see the IG description and it said "has the ability to shrug off blows that would kill others" or such wording That sounds defensive.

Anyway, as Ves pointed out, and confirmed by a player,this is overpowered.
Order market chat, 11-28-04: primal - "haha lol 3 big packs of wolfs spawned i hit dwarf toughness multi cast and droped bombs on them 14k exp each what a joke"

Are you sure, as a player looking at the game as a whole, that 30 seconds is too long for its intended purpose? And you want to add a Damage shield over it? Sure, for a 2 second duration, NOT for that 30 seconds of offensive invulnerability to melee monsters (mainly beasts like golems and wolves).

[Crissa]

Obviously, Dwarven Toughness cutting out the damage from the user's damage shield is a bug... As it also should not block the target of the user from using damage shield effects, either.

...Lasting for thirty seconds may be over balanced, but that's another issue entirely.

'Harden Shell' seems to give a large bonus to Etherial Armor, which blocks just about everything - including Spirit and Etherial damage types. It cuts all my damage in half, and makes all my Damage Over Time type spells do nothing - And Coordinated Spirit Bolt do 0 damage.

As an aside, I'm finding it annoying that I can do more damage (per hit) with Cloak of Thorns I than any other ability - Including Spirit Punch.

-Crissa

[Vesuvius]

It would be fine if it prevented spellcasting under the duration.

[Xydrik]

And you want to add a Damage shield over it? Sure, for a 2 second duration, NOT for that 30 seconds of offensive invulnerability to melee monsters (mainly beasts like golems and wolves).

Please note I am not implying I wish to add anything, I am questioning whether others feel this is working as intended or if this is a bug.

The ability is clearly a defensive one, not offensive. You combine DT with a high level multicast/burnout + an AoE chain and its devastating, making damage shields work with it again is even more overpowering.DT blows the other racial abilities out of the water by a longshot.

I think defensive and offensive is in the eye of the beholder. Isarea spellbindmore useful forassaultinga group or finishing them off? Is high armor better for sitting back and tanking or rushing in. I think how you use your abilities determines their combat value.

Let me get this straight: You are complaining because Dwarven Toughness is too WEAK??? Make a human and use Human Magical Apptitude and then keep on saying Toughness is too weak. I don't think Apptitude is too weak; I think Toughness is way to strong.

Please note no where in my original post did I complain that DT is weak. I am questioningwhether it is functioning properly and looking for others opinions on the interaction between dwarven toughness and damage shields. If it is intended to prevent damage shields it should be documented, but it isn't whichleads me to believe it is not functioning properly. If dwarven toughness is meant to prevent damage shields, what is the lore/logic associated with the reasons that counter my originial arguments? Whether it should be functioning properly is the true dilemma... In either case it needs some reworking or rewording.

[Fireclaw]

I guess many are thinking that even if DT is not functioning properly it should be left as is and not "fixed" so that damage shields stack with it. Even now it is overpowered compared to other biped abilities. No need to make it even stronger.

[Jaraiden]

Please note no where in my original post did I complain that DT is weak. I am questioningwhether it is functioning properly and looking for others opinions on the interaction between dwarven toughness and damage shields. If it is intended to prevent damage shields it should be documented, but it isn't whichleads me to believe it is not functioning properly. If dwarven toughness is meant to prevent damage shields, what is the lore/logic associated with the reasons that counter my originial arguments? Whether it should be functioning properly is the true dilemma... In either case it needs some reworking or rewording.

I agree. So to match the website description and IG character descriptionthe duration of Dwarven Toughness should be vastly shortened. An oversight by AE and I am happy you brought up.

Next would be a support ticket to shorten its duration and as another avenue to AE of how Dwarven Toughness (invulnerable to a melee attack or very few attacks) should work with a damage shield (to that deals melee damage).

[Crazyfingers]

hehe, Non-dwarves complaining that the ability is overbalanced. Well Im a dwarf and I gonna complain that Dragons can gatherobsidian faster thanI cause they can fly and i cant. Its not fair wah wha wha.

For the original question, yeah I think its kinda tweaked not to allow the ability to work when stones/thornsare equipped but in the grand scheme of things, its about #40000003432 down the list of things that need to be fixed.

[Dvergar]

nice to have so many non-dwarves "knowing" perfectlythat our ability is overpowered... Didn't we just recently have a thread from Dangit regarding your wheaties? [:(]

There might be a lot to say about the balancing of races, and some abilities have already been changed to reflect what AE thinks about this (like the new gnomian prowess, the DT-nerf back then, and more).

But this thread is about DT in combination with damage shields, and the brokeness of them since some time. Would be nice to keep on track [:)]

[Jaraiden]

You can't artifically limit a thread to just "Dwarven Toughness + Damage Shield" without knowing the intent of each. As you have read . . .

Dwarven Toughness:
When used it allows the dwarf to ignore the next melee attack of the monster they are fighting. This special ability has a delay value of 40 and a recycle time of 5:00

If you disagree with that then alert AE to update their site to match the game mechanics. And you have read the IG character creation description and description of the Dwarven Toughness.

There is an inconsistency between all three. Should that not be addressed THEN inquire about Damage Shield type spells? Personally, I think Dwarven Toughness and Damage Shieldshould stack, as long as Dwarven Toughness is used PER the game lore intent (duration of that "next melee attack of the monster they are fighting.")

If you have a problem with game design and game mechanics based on game lore, AE should be alerted to the inconsistency. Monk and Dragon players are doing it. In the case of Dwarven Toughness alone . . . well you read how primal said it was a joke.

[Korial]

It seems some people just can't stay on topic.

The problem being highlighted is not limited to Dwarven Toughness. If any mob hits you successfully and does zero damage, then your damage shield will not fire back. I've seen it many many times, and I'm not a dwarf. So the problem here is "Damage Shields do nothing when you get hit for Zero damage", and Dwarven Toughness happens to be one situation where you get hit for Zero damage.

Maybe if you want to argue over Dwarven Toughness itself, you should start another thread?

[Helcat]

It seems some people just can't stay on topic.

"Damage Shields do nothing when you get hit for Zero damage", and Dwarven Toughness happens to be one situation where you get hit for Zero damage.

There. You have your answer.


Damage Shields are just that. They are not offensive weapons.
You take no damage = your damage shield dishes none out.
Seems fairly obvious this is working as intended.

=^.^=

[Vesuvius]

nice to have so many non-dwarves "knowing" perfectlythat our ability is overpowered... Didn't we just recently have a thread from Dangit regarding your wheaties? [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-6.gif[/img]

You dont have to play a dwarf to know how MMORPGs function and what is and isnt overpowering. It doesnt take a genious to figure out game mechanics, especially considering they are all fundamentally the same from one MMO to another.

But this thread is about DT in combination with damage shields, and the brokeness of them since some time. Would be nice to keep on track [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

At the end, the thread starter states:

So what do you think... Should or shouldn't dwarven toughness prevent damage shields? Is this a bug? Would it be unbalancing? Does it go with or against common sense/your gut instinct?

And I think that damage shields shouldnt work with DT because DT is an overpowered ability to begin with.

Explaining why it is overpowered to support why damage shields shouldnt work with it is no less on topic.

[Xydrik]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Korial wrote: It seems some people just can't stay on topic.

"Damage Shields do nothing when you get hit for Zero damage", and Dwarven Toughness happens to be one situation where you get hit for Zero damage.



There. You have your answer.


Damage Shields are just that. They are not offensive weapons.
You take no damage = your damage shield dishes none out.
Seems fairly obvious this is working as intended.

=^.^=

Nowhere is it stated that when you get hit for zero damage a damage shield does not retaliate. Dwarven toughness is not some barrier that surrounds you preventing damage exchange, it makes you resilient to attacks, which has nothing to do with your ability to return damage.

Furthermore, consider glaring quills,a damage shield that lasts for X number of uses. When dwarven toughness is used in combination with glaring quills the quills aredepleted up even though they are notreturning damage. This indicates the ability is being activated, but having no effect. This does not sound like it is working as intended.