Your Thoughts on Exploiter Punishment

[Tantalyr]

There have been several threads over the past few months on exploits and the punishment handed out by AE to those taking advantage of them. The posts in those threads have ranged between (a) WAAAH! I was caught exploiting and I'm canceling my account(s), and (b) MWAHAHAHA! You bastages deserved what you got and more!

Me, I think there is a middle ground. So my question is this: What punishment should be meted out to those who knowingly exploit glitches in the game? Some rules:

(1) Player banning or suspension is out of bounds
(2) Blaming the developers and thus no punishment at all is out of bounds

With those two extremes not in play, what would you, as God-in-Charge do to punish expoiters?

I'll start off with my view: exploiters should have all gains (whether gold or xp) removed entirely plus 1/3 of their previous gold/xp wiped out as a "fine".

Your thoughts?

[evilkarl]

I'm inclined to go with something similar to what you suggested but it would vary based on the exploit.

At a base though ill gotten gains should be removed and what they should face some penalty.

BLK exploit for example I would be inclined to take twice what they gained as "punishment"

[PJ]

Gain removal: Necessary
Punishment: Necessary, but should be proportional to the crime

Plus In my game i'd make exploiters wear a Giant Scarlet E for 2-4 weeks.

[BKBanzai]

hahaha...that one I like....

I think punitive definitely deserving.

However, it should fit the depth of how much they exploited.

Senseless exploiting, such as the case with someone that supposedly "legitimately" earned 80 mil of *something* but, felt the need to exploit another 20 mil....

There's greed...and then there's GREED.

As such, there should be punishment and PUNISHMENT, including a scarlet letter.

[Akuluxtraxas]

Exploiting is exploiting plain and simple

If one gains 18 million and another 9 million neither is any more guilty than the other. Not only do time limitations etc play there but just choosing to use the exploit multiple times is no better than more multiple times.

I was one who gave in to temptation and wish i hadnt not because of any punishmet AE handed out but because im usually honest and very against any such acts.

I think losing all gains is a must, some other add like losing another % and a warning that next time you will lose the account.

While i may have given in to a dumb temptation many others did too and all are equally wrong in that pursuit if they chose knowing the exploit to use it. Bashing anyone for using it more or using it wirth x already is exactly the wrong way to do it as people who used it less get the message i can pull it off but have to limit it under others.

any amount of exploiting by intention is as bad as the next and all should be punished equally and without long delay.

If a bank roober steals 10 grand and another steals 5 grand is one more right because he only took 5 grand? as said all should receive swift and equal punishment and a warning if they dont learn the first time and reexploit they likely wont.

just my thoughts.

[Brio]

I think we really need some better guidelines and/or warnings if the punishments are going to be so severe. The xGenerate hoard value was obviously not intended, but what about other items that give irregular hoard values? Is it an exploit to hoard the piece of armor, for instance, that gives the best hoard per resource? There is still a great deal of variation between items for hoard value. How do we know whether these variations are intentional or not?
Some people in the other thread have called hunting Purple Necroflies an exploit. I have hunted them quite a bit and gained many levels, but I never considered it an exploit. The flies are noticeably underpowered relative to most other mobs around the same lvl, but they don't seem to be bugged in any way. You hit them, and they hit you back. Maybe not as hard as other mobs would, but I know from experience they are still quite capable of killing high lvl, heavily multiclassed characters.

Where is the cut-off between normal variation and an exploitable mistake?

[Peaches]

I firmly believe that how the issue of punishing exploiters needs to be handled directly with ae and the exploiter. There is a confidentiality process that needs to be adhered to when dealing with exploiters, I believe anyway.

What we don't know won't ever hurt us. I say let AE deal with them the way they see fit.

[Gunnyr]

Well with all the bugs still in the game and no real logic to how certain things are performed I'd say there actually are levels of exploitation. Sometimes it's possible for the term exploitation to get thrown around like a baseball by players with a different idea of how the game should be played than you. I think the Splinter "exploit" was handled the closest to fair and sets good boundaries...

1. All players who performed the "exploit" were given a chance to come clean. Those who did were promised leniency.
2. All profits/gains were removed from the exploiters accounts.
3. Appropriate action was to be taken against people who blatantly abused the exploit, which means those who inadvertantly "exploited" were not attacked for thier accident.

Myself, I agree that all profits/gains being removed shouldn't be limited to what moneys the character has on hand. If they "earned" 2 gold and only have 1 gold now, put that character at -1 gold and be undeletable until the debt is paid back.

[Vahrokh]

I am a firm believer that good old practices that flawlessy worked for centuries should always be used (in stead of the hypocrital leniency of our days).

Some sane Hammurabi Code [:O] and some sane Dante's Divine Comedy retributions [:|]would do [H][H][6].

The former decrees that who thieves (and exploit is more or less that... undue appropriation of something, often gold) has to have his right hand chopped. In a MMO that would translate to force for a set time the exploiter to wear a mask / scale of shame using the technology used in Harvest event. That would be purple and would reduce stats by 20%.

The latter talks that when you in life did X, you'll be punished with -X or even -Xy. In Horizons that would translate in removing the exploited stuff and then do it again till the dude has lost 5 x what he / she did. Including going under zero.

[gusi]

The former decrees that who thieves (and exploit is more or less that... undue appropriation of something, often gold) has to have his right hand chopped. In a MMO that would translate to force for a set time the exploiter to wear a mask / scale of shame using the technology used in Harvest event. That would be purple and would reduce stats by 20%.

LOL

The latter talks that when you in life did X, you'll be punished with -X or even -Xy. In Horizons that would translate in removing the exploited stuff and then do it again till the dude has lost 5 x what he / she did. Including going under zero.

I think this is the 'practice' which happens to be the most commonly mentioned, or most popular.

[Shaw Moking]

In the middle of Dalimond, there are 'stocks'*. When the exploiting player logs on, they are bound to these stocks.
Next to the 'stocks' is an NPC, where you purchase rotting fruit, to throw at the unfortunate player. Each hit could lower a stat.

After 15 mins of public humilation they are free to go, but with EXPLOITER after their name.
This could even extend to other players in their Guild, as to encourage Guild intervention, if they know someone in the guild is exploiting.




*stocks are those medieval wooden devices which the crooks, arms and head go through.

[Vahrokh]

Update of shame [:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]

The retribution on exploiter was not intentional and nothing will be done to them (see dragons forum for more details).

A bug in a tool chopped hoards to 999,999 not a AE employee decision, so the hoards of the exploiters are being upped again to pre-exploit values.

This means exclusively one thing:

Exploit dude. Exploit much. Exploit hard.

In the rare case you get caught, the worst is that you lose what you gained and nothing more, not even 1% of "tax".

BOO SHAMEEEE

[Jazmyn]

I'm a little hesitant to reply to this one, because I've heard such a wide range of stories concerning that gen spell. I didn't hoard any of them with my dragon, so don't have a personal reference to hoard loss per spell hoarded. I'm not sure exactly how the hoard decrease was calculated. but stories I've heard seem to indicate a base penalty, plus value of spells. So, on the one hand there were those who ran out and hoarded a lot of them on purpose, and got a lot taken away. On the other hand though, I've heard from at least one who got handed one of these spells and asked to check what the hoard value was, and then hoard it. He did, and .. he had a lot taken away also. It was an exploit, yes, but not one that necessarily everyone realized was an exploit. In addition, I heard that this was a spell that came from a drop form only, not a form you could get from a trainer, so it wasn't really something that people might have had a base for before.Now if flame bolt I suddenly was worth that much, that would obviously be a bug! I've picked up hoardables from sandstone pebble golems that hoarded for over 3000. Was that an exploit? My understanding is that hoardables from T1 mobs shouldn't be that high. But it was a silver crown I think, which is supposed to hoard for that much.. isn't it? Or is it? Now you'll have players questioning if they should hoard something or not if there is no forewarning that such-and-such is not at correct value. So, I would suggest a warning first on the log in screen. X item has been detected as having a bugged value and exploiters will be punished. There, now they know what to watch out for. This would prevent a lot of unhappy players I think. I know fixes aren't instantaneous from discoverytime to application of patch, but the log in page seems easier to update and faster ;)

Anyways, just my two coppers ;)

[Dvergar]

The posting from Amon is justmiserable. All dragens get their original hoard refunded, no matter how much they exploited. And what about the cash made with these spells?"We reserve the right [...]" means absolutely nothing. [N]

WoW just banned a few hundred accounts for using cheats. AE doesn't seem to be interested in a strict non-expoiters-policy, most likely due to their financial situation. No surprise Amon locked his own thread [:#]

[Vahrokh]

It was not drop only. It's well known since beta of game and was for months available on any trainer as random pick.

But it was a silver crown I think, which is supposed to hoard for that much.. isn't it? Or is it?

First of all tier I mobs drop brass items and not silver. Which is dropped by level 20 mobs+.

Then, getting a 3000 from an item you get once a (lucky) day is one thing.
Being able to craft thousand of 7777 value spells all day long has a different dimension of value. A spell that is so old that only high level players have it and they are hardly ignorant about what they handle and went to catch purposedly (i.e. you had to be well bent on getting it, else it would not drop on your head alone nor was dropped by mobs).

All the miserable excuse of people not knowing what they handled is just that: demonstrates how much they are unworthy of any faith.
Don't try tell me that a 10-12 months old character does not know what he/she obtained by camping lore masters for random formulas and spending 170 tokens just for that. And since it costed little material (was very efficient at just 4 shards and 4 orbs) it was hoarded a lot, so a sudden change from 144 to 7777 is hard to oversee. Expecially when the "oversight" lasts for several thousands of such spells done. Expecially when it becomes preferred (i.e. there is a conscious choice to do A and not B any more) to doing mithril scales (the product such old people does).

To me it all smells of a gigantic "presa per il culo". Don't know the exact English translation for it. Maybe "grab people by the as.s".

[Korial]

(1) Player banning or suspension is out of bounds

And with that rule you make exploiting an acceptable action. AE have consistently failed to get the message across that exploiting is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. The only message they have gotten to the player base is "If you exploit, and if we catch you, we will remove your exploited gains."

On something non-transferable, such as hoard, a hard reset of hoard to 0 is about the only non-banning/suspension punishment that will get the message across. With previous cash exploits, setting their accounts to 0 cash isn't as harsh a punishment, because by the time they are caught, they have used their exploited cash purchasing items, forms, techs etc.

I have no bias towards WoW or Blizzard, chances are I'll never play WoW. But one thing they got right was banning accounts. 400 had the off switch activated on them for using a client-side speed hack, and another 300 were terminated for using a bot.

[Demelza Flameclaw]

/me looks at ban stick

nuff said!

[gusi]

So in other words you're slapping them on the hand?

No punishment has been given - very unnerving to watch from the 'sideline'.

[Tantalyr]

A bit of a modification to my initial thoughts on exploiter punishment . . . .

In addition to wiping out all gold/xp/hoard value gained, plus a 1/3 penalty, I think there should also be a "three-strikes-and-you're-out" rule. That is, the first time a player is caught exploiting he/she would be hit with the gain wipe and penalty. If the same player exploits again, his/her account is suspended for 3 to 7 days. If the player still hasn't gained a clue and is caught exploiting for a third time, then the mighty perma-ban stick comes out.

It further occurs to me that the punishment I advocate here does not cover non-gain exploits. To use an historical example, early after launch a certain guild used an exploit to walk on water therebyreaching otherwise inaccessibleisland plots which they promptly purchased. Though the developers took their plots away from these folks, no other punishment was meted out to them (admittedly, that guild certainly earned the enmity of the player community and was nearly completelyostracized).

So, what punishment should non-gain exploiters receive? Should they be subject to immediate suspension, followed by banning if caught exploiting again (i.e., a "two-strike" rule is applied)?

[IndyMan]

Thanks for the info