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Thread: Checking the rampant multiclassing

  1. #1

    Default Checking the rampant multiclassing

    The thread on chat > general about strong multiclassed 'überpeds' got me thinking. Obviously, this will raise lots of angry objections, but it seems clear to me that HZ's unlimited multiclassing is creating an unbearable strain on the game.

    The ramifications of extreme multiclassing are obvious. It creates hybrids that have no weaknesses, that feel unchallenged and ultimately, bored. They are of not one class but an amalgam of everything that is inheritable in their collection of trophies. This blurs the meaning of pure adventure schools and renders them meaningless.

    There are two inbuilt restraints already in the system, which unfortunately have proven woefully inadequate.

    Firstly, there is the inheritance of abilities at half the achieved level in the school. This somewhat limits the gathering of super-abilities to the lower half of the collected classes. (However, some of the low-level skills are extremely powerful in their own right; multicast being one of the primary 'offenders'. But i digress) This limit is, as it is now, a good start. The next step would be to limit the inheritance of both statistics and skill to no more than 75% of their achieved effectiveness. A statistic or skill built up to 1000 in one class would inherit as 750 to other classes.

    Secondly, we have the class-defining skills that are not inheritable ('cannot be mastered'). The amount of uninheritable abilities needs to be increased drastically, both to cut down the accumulated strength of an 'überped' and to better define pure classes. Inherited abilities should not be inherited as-is, especially across the major divisions of melee-ranged-mystic-arcane. Their recycle timers going up a certain percentage would be one remedy. This would increase the importance of classes that straddle these divisional borders; battlemage (melee-arcane), paladin (melee-mystic) and elemental archer (ranged-arcane) for example.

    Next, I would propose locking down the character's 'primary class'. This is the first class where he/she achieves level 21, changeable afterwards only by questing. When playing in this primary class, the above inheritance rules apply. When playing outside this primary class, even a stricter set of inheritance rules would be applied. Certain skills would 'inherit to primary class only', rendering them unusable when not playing in primary class.

    Hybrids that approach rating 200 should be made redundant: first through a extremely daunting task of adding enough lateral content so a player would never feel the need to grind their 10th class to 100 - because there is nothing else to do. Second, by balancing the above restrictions so a pure classes would still compare favorably to a hybrid. It is a well-known fact that it is not so much about attributes or skills as abilities, so their masterability should come under especially close scrutiny. At the same time, classes in dire need of powering up or even finishing *cough*conjurer*cough* would be brought up to par.

    It is possible that hitting all of these restrictions on multiclassing might in fact choke it too much. It is a common strategy in negotiations for both sides to pull into extremes so the middle ground lands into palatable position. This is one such extreme, from which one can step downwards to achieve a more moderate, and hopefully efficient, solution.

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  2. #2
    Member Seranthor's Avatar
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    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Are you willing to forgo the massive upgrades that the dragonkin want to accomplish this? or are you wanting to only further limit bipeds?

    Most certainly you can see the ramifications of such severe limitations on multiclassing, you'll most likely only hasten the exodus of the biped playerbase.

    With limitations as you propose then TG will not have a need to further progress on any dragon balancing... :) They will be able to focus more on bringing in more players because they'll have to do something to replace the playerbase that has fled.


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  3. #3

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    I think i disagreed with everything buta fraction of a sentence...

    "first through a extremely daunting task of adding enough lateral content so a player would never feel the need to grind their 10th class to 100 - because there is nothing else to do."

    I agree that they should add content so this feeling doesn't exist.

    Now for some disagreement...

    1.) "but it seems clear to me that HZ's unlimited multiclassing is creating an unbearable strain on the game"

    For good or ill, multiclassing is one of the things keeping this game afloat. The rampant leveling is a symptom of Hz's problems, not the problem.

    2.) "The ramifications of extreme multiclassing are obvious. It creates hybrids that have no weaknesses, that feel unchallenged and ultimately, bored. They are of not one class but an amalgam of everything that is inheritable in their collection of trophies. This blurs the meaning of pure adventure schools and renders them meaningless."

    a.) All characters have weaknesses. Multiclassed "uberpeds" are not gods. Being smart and careful make you invincible, not stats or levels or skills. I don't die cause I never enter a fight I can't win, and yes fights that I can't win do exist.

    b.) There are plenty of challenges in this game. Challenges are what you make for yourself.Most of these unchallenged players are farming pathetic WA Livestock. If they really want a challenge they can go take a wraith group. Too easy? A wraith and a kwellen group then. Still To easy? A wraith and a kwellen while killing an anchor.

    c.) I had a section in my thread, which i believe you're referring to, refuting this.

    3.) "Firstly, there is the inheritance of abilities at half the achieved level in the school. This somewhat limits the gathering of super-abilities to the lower half of the collected classes. (However, some of the low-level skills are extremely powerful in their own right; multicast being one of the primary 'offenders'. But i digress) This limit is, as it is now, a good start. The next step would be to limit the inheritance of both statistics and skill to no more than 75% of their achieved effectiveness. A statistic or skill built up to 1000 in one class would inherit as 750 to other classes."

    This makes multiclassing for skills other than Life, Augmentation essentially useless. Every body would be X or Y uber class + Healer/Cleric then.

    4.) "Secondly, we have the class-defining skills that are not inheritable ('cannot be mastered'). The amount of uninheritable abilities needs to be increased drastically, both to cut down the accumulated strength of an 'überped' and to better define pure classes. Inherited abilities should not be inherited as-is, especially across the major divisions of melee-ranged-mystic-arcane. Their recycle timers going up a certain percentage would be one remedy. This would increase the importance of classes that straddle these divisional borders; battlemage (melee-arcane), paladin (melee-mystic) and elemental archer (ranged-arcane) for example"

    I'm not inherently against looking at which abilties master and which do not. But such a drastic change is not needed. And I'm curious why you want to make playing a Hybrid more important. Most multiclassers already play hybrids as their main, are you trying to increase diversity or reduce it?

    5.) "Next, I would propose locking down the character's 'primary class'. This is the first class where he/she achieves level 21, changeable afterwards only by questing. When playing in this primary class, the above inheritance rules apply. When playing outside this primary class, even a stricter set of inheritance rules would be applied. Certain skills would 'inherit to primary class only', rendering them unusable when not playing in primary class."

    That kills one of the best features of the HZ multiclass system. That of being able to switch your classes at your convience. Without having to jump through an absurd pile of skills

    6.) "It is possible that hitting all of these restrictions on multiclassing might in fact choke it too much."

    It wouldn't choke it too much, it'd stab it in the heart repeatedly. Why multiclass for skills if they don't buff up old skill gains or grant new skills that transfer enough to function against a mob. Why multiclass for abilities if none that transfer are worth anything?


    The rampant multiclassing is a symptom of problems not the problem. People are bored with nothing to do, so they level more and improve their characters. Yes it sucks for dragons not beging able to do this, but that's no reason to destroy one of the few things to do in this game. Multiclassing would still exist but your way destroys any reward for effort. Multiclassing does take time and effort and money. Maybe it has become too easy with the merge. Hell I've argued for limits to the exp gain myself dozens of times. But multiclassing still takes effort. What doesn't take effort is having other people earn your levels for you.


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  4. #4

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor
    Are you willing to forgo the massive upgrades that the dragonkin want to accomplish this? or are you wanting to only further limit bipeds?
    Some of those wishes are by and large the product of seeing the überpeds in action and the carnage they can produce so effortlessly. Dragons aren't so much after 'massive upgrades' - and frankly I don't see any coming even with ARoP - rather than balancing themselves with bipeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by PJ
    (snip)
    Long post, so I'll summarize instead of going over every single point.

    Multiclassing is a symptom but also a problem of its own. I greatly doubt the developers intended the game to cater for characters that possess most every ability worth multiclassing for, and the current content really isn't. However, me and you seem to disagree greatly on what type of opposition should be considered a suitable challenge. The 'WA livestock' should be, under all circumstances, a suitable challenge even for veteral players. The groups that gather around bosses (kwellen, wraiths) should be nigh impossible to take on without a team backing you up.

    About limiting skill inheritance; you forget about training points, they give a max of +200 to any one skill. So in theory, the inherited skill would be 950 at tops. Not everyone would be an 'überclass+cleric or healer', because limiting the multiclassing and stat inheritance would not make that combo a very good arcane caster or warrior.

    All characters have a weakness, yes: we have but a limited amount of hit points to lose before we bite dirt. Multiclassing to achieve best armor, top out all your skills and stats, and maximize your defensive and offensive abilitites will diminish the chances of your weakness ever showing up. Enough, in fact, to make you laugh at but the most massive amount of opponents bearing down upon you.

    I'm unsure what you mean by hybrids. To me, hybrid is a heavily multiclassed character. I'll assume you are referring to my mention of pure classes that get abilities from several main 'schools' of combat, like paladin. I am not wanting merely to make these more important. I am wanting to make all pure classes more important. Once common complaint about battlemage for example is that it is not good until you multi with mage and warrior. By balancing what abilities these classes earn naturally, versus what others get by multiclassing, they can be made more desirable. A prestige school should not be only good worth your while when you multiclass it into greatness, but by itself as well.

    I agree that multiclassing is one of the great points of HZ. When taken to extremes however it will start breaking down. I am proposing with limiting the viability and desirability of taking almost ten - or more - classes by diminishing the rewards the further you go there and making pure classes stronger and more viable. Heavy multiclassing kills diversity as well. Everyone who is into it full-time is after the same set of highly desirable abilities. At the end of the day, their row of hotkeyed abilities would be near identical, plus some incidental abilities from their current class.

    A short aside about experience gain. When I came to HZ a year ago, I was astonished at how mild the exp-per-level curve is here. The amount of experience each level needs rises very, very gradually. This means the time spent moving up a level never increases drastically, not even at the very top. There's no 'top' in HZ though as when you reach 100 you simply move on to next class... the exp curve should be reconsidered.

    The reason I am posting this is, I myself am convinced that heavily multiclassed characters are too powerful. Blurring the class lines into oblivion and allowing the birth of heavy hybrids is, I feel, a disservice to this game.

    Dragon adventurer 100 | Dragon crafter 100 | Dragon lairshaper 84

  5. #5

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    The whiney dragons never will give up, will they?


    And well put, PJ.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter
    The whiney dragons never will give up, will they?
    And for the record, I have multiclassed biped characters. As put in another post in here, it can be put either way, whiney capped dragons or überpeds unwilling to give up their godhood... so let's not go into there.

    edit:
    And well put, PJ.
    Which is why I replied to his post. I am interested in reasonable discussion, not flame threads... which is why I initially debated whether I should respond to someone who just comes in to troll.

    Dragon adventurer 100 | Dragon crafter 100 | Dragon lairshaper 84

  7. #7

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    My opinion.

    Again, this isn't the problem it is the problem people focus on.


    XP spent to XP spent a dragon is better then a biped (until the dragon maxes on levels).

    HERESY you say.

    Lets put it this way.
    A biped spending all their XP (i.e. staying single class) on a single class can do one thing well. Say Mage, or Fighter. Can only do their single class ability.

    A dragon (having only one class) is a dragon. But can fight, cast spells, heal, and possibly fly.

    A biped multi-classes to allow them access to the other abilites they need. Healing, magic, armor, and are limited in many ways to the class they are currently, the level of the class they were (to use abilities) and the level of the class they currently are (to use spells, armor, weapons and such).

    So, taking away biped mastererable abilities is really trying to remove multi-classing. Which has the whole point of letting the biped be as versatile as the Dragon, but at the cost of Rating XP waste.

    Lets take 100 levels of Xp.
    A dragon would be level 100.
    A Biped could be level 100 in one class. This may/may not be as effect as the dragon. A 100 level cleric is alot different then a 100 level mage.
    A biped could be level 75 in two classes (the rating differences would soak up XP)
    A biped could be level 50 in three classes (again, now more rating hits)

    So the Uber biped isn't so uber when there is a cap on XP (100 levels worht of XP).

    Also the above "uber" biped would be limited to abilites 1/2 his level in the non-current class.

    Now the real problem you want to complain about is once we go past the point I was making. Once a biped gets to spend more then 1 point more then a dragon, we have an obvious problem. And the problem isn't that Bipeds can multiclass (see the above example) it is that bipeds can spend more XP. As bipeds spend more XP, they get better, (same as if a dragon was spending it). So the real problem isn't multiclassing, it is the cap on Dragon spending XP. The fact that if dragonscould continue to spend XP for levels, there wouldn't be this problem. ButBipeds can, and thus there is aproblem. Now thequick out of the box jump upand downvision will be that it is multiclassing! That isn't the problem.

    If the Dragon could spend as much XP as a biped who was 100th level in 2 classes, the dragon would be 200th+ level.And be on par with the biped. But dragon's can't, and that is the problem. Not multiclassing.

    Try it some time. Figure out how much XP is wasted in rating when a biped is multiclassed. Figure out the limitations on getting 1 class to 50, and then starting a new class as a biped (not power leveling). It is very difficult.

    Powerleveling to avoid, bypass this is only an issue as dragon's can't spend the Xp, regardless of your feelings on powerleveling.
    -Digit Dryad
    Chaos

  8. #8

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    First off, I fail to see what dragons have to do with problems inherent in multiclassing. They cannot multiclass, so that kind of removes them from the problem's equation entirely.

    Now, allowing dragons to multiclass is not a solution to anything. As I have explained above, and others have done elsewhere, it is a flawed system. Were a developer to suggest opening the multiclass system to dragons - allowing us to become healers, zerkers, knocs and whatnot - I would adamantly oppose it. Certainly, it might be interesting to bring some variety and specialization to dragons, but the current multisystem is no the way to do it. Ultimately it brings neither 'variety' or 'specialization'.

    (Then again, since there is a demographic group that loves to bash dragons, perhaps the only way to bring limits to multiclassing was to allow it to dragons, then have this group demand for nerfs on the system. [:P])

    Finally, I don't see how comparing dragons to pure class bipeds relates to problems in multiclassing either. Those comparisons have been discussed elsewhere, as well as relative (lack of) power of dragons themselves, so I won't extrapolate on the subject in this thread - it is off topic enough already.

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by walter
    The whiney dragons never will give up, will they?
    If you dont have anything constructive to say...
    Just dont respond...
    Whining "I never played a dragon except maybe a powerleveled adult dragon" biped.

    The real problem is not that dragons are weak, because we are not...
    The problem is that when bipeds learn more schools they get more and more skills and abilities that can be used by various other schools...
    Which at some points and in some combinations makes the balance tip over too far in favor of the bipeds...
    As an example I never heared of a warrior fighting better with magic then with his own trusted melee weapon...
    Untill I was playing my biped alt...

    Either Dragons need a very much higher lvl cap...
    Or certain changes should be made to the multiclassing system...

    The game is doomed anyway the way it is going now so let them all leave if they dont like it...
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonboy
    Which at some points and in some combinations makes the balance tip over too far in favor of the bipeds...
    ********, I must have missed the place that they stated Dragons and Bipeds are supposed to be balanced in comparsion to eachother. Could you possibly point me to where that is?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    i missed it tooo.

    [:|]

    where is it?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Varangaard
    First off, I fail to see what dragons have to do with problems inherent in multiclassing. They cannot multiclass, so that kind of removes them from the problem's equation entirely.
    The point I made with dragons, are dragons are a multi-class to start with. They are Warrior, cleric, and mage all together.
    So by default, they are multiclassed.

    Now, allowing dragons to multiclass is not a solution to anything. As I have explained above, and others have done elsewhere, it is a flawed system. Were a developer to suggest opening the multiclass system to dragons - allowing us to become healers, zerkers, knocs and whatnot - I would adamantly oppose it. Certainly, it might be interesting to bring some variety and specialization to dragons, but the current multisystem is no the way to do it. Ultimately it brings neither 'variety' or 'specialization'.
    Never said it was. Then again, I didn't think multi-classing was wrong to start.
    Never said dragons should specialize. There should just be an understanding that a biped Xp/XP with a dragon is more specialised or lower leveledd.

    (Then again, since there is a demographic group that loves to bash dragons, perhaps the only way to bring limits to multiclassing was to allow it to dragons, then have this group demand for nerfs on the system. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img])
    Not bashing, unless you were talking to others.
    I am trying find a balance, or at least a point they equitable.

    Your original statement was multiclassing was rampant, i.e. it needed to be controlled.

    Finally, I don't see how comparing dragons to pure class bipeds relates to problems in multiclassing either. Those comparisons have been discussed elsewhere, as well as relative (lack of) power of dragons themselves, so I won't extrapolate on the subject in this thread - it is off topic enough already.
    If you read above, and in my original.
    Dragons are multiclassed to start with. Fighter, mage and healer (self) to start.
    But they are supposedly not rampant.
    Reason being, the cap for dragons.
    -Digit Dryad
    Chaos

  13. #13

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    The real problem is not that dragons are weak, because we are not...
    The problem is that when bipeds learn more schools they get more and more skills and abilities that can be used by various other schools...
    Which at some points and in some combinations makes the balance tip over too far in favor of the bipeds...
    As an example I never heared of a warrior fighting better with magic then with his own trusted melee weapon...
    Untill I was playing my biped alt...
    Exactly!

    Thank you.

    Removing the cap, even for a linear advancement after 100 would quickly make a difference.

    Upping the cap to 120 won't do much, except move the roof to 120. The ability for dragons to continue to spend XP, much like bipeds can do (bipeds by changing a class) will balance alot.
    -Digit Dryad
    Chaos

  14. #14

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    STOP THIS!!![:@]

    If you don't like the multiclass system... don't use it and let everyone else alone!![:#]

    The game would not have stayed/come this far without themulticlass feature!!!

    You all have blue faces and I am turning purple from your incessant blah blah blahblah blaaaah!!![:O]

    As Larch said in another thread... stop the communistic 10 year plan!!![B][pi][B]
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    or kill you trying!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Walter
    ********, I must have missed the place that they stated Dragons and Bipeds are supposed to be balanced in comparsion to eachother. Could you possibly point me to where that is?
    And by the same token, nobody should ask for more power to monks, bow users or conjurers. It isn't stated anywhere that they should compare favorably with other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by refuse
    The point I made with dragons, are dragons are a multi-class to start with. They are Warrior, cleric, and mage all together. So by default, they are multiclassed.
    This was already replied to in another thread. I'll just add that our healing especially is more like a bad joke. Also, Fireclaw did not mention that we do not get any of the abilities your typical arcane casters get, like multicasts or perfect spell, nor any equivalent of fusion burn. The diversity is also lacking; no stuns, no mezzes, no roots, no nukes.

    Never said it was. Then again, I didn't think multi-classing was wrong to start.
    Never said dragons should specialize. There should just be an understanding that a biped Xp/XP with a dragon is more specialised or lower leveledd.
    As a concept, multiclassing is an interesting idea and remains one of HZ's strong, more unique points. It however has holes that you could fly a dragon through. Although these threads have provided some interesting points of view, I still stand by my initial post. Also, I am not accusing people of blatant min/max multiclassing, though I suppose that happens too amongst PLers.

    Not bashing, unless you were talking to others.
    Wasn't referring to you. Most people are able to remain civil while discussing this subject.

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  16. #16

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    If dragons were allowed to spend xp to buys skills/stats/abilities would it be capped or uncapped?

    The reason I ask is because at present all biped skills/stats are caped at 1080+racial as a highest possible base no matter how many 100's you have its impossible to exceed that amount.

    While I don't propose the same cap for dragons I was wondering if anyone had considered that?

    On the flip side.....
    If the option was available to all and not restricted it could curb people multiclassing a little because they might want to focus on building up stats.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Heh I'd propse the same base caps. Giveanice health dose of equality to dragons.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Well actually the max is 1280+racial (half of ones tps) for skills and 1150+racial for stats but thats restricted.




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  19. #19

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Well I guess if we're getting technical, for stats the maxes are actually 1140 for strength, dex, power (99x10 (Classes don't gain stats for the first level in a school) + 150) and 1102 for focus (19x8+80x10+150). And disregarding training points 990 and 952 respectively.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Checking the rampant multiclassing

    Quote Originally Posted by Varangaard
    This was already replied to in another thread. I'll just add that our healing especially is more like a bad joke. Also, Fireclaw did not mention that we do not get any of the abilities your typical arcane casters get, like multicasts or perfect spell, nor any equivalent of fusion burn. The diversity is also lacking; no stuns, no mezzes, no roots, no nukes.
    True,
    But the dragons are not a pure caster, they are multi-classed, or a partial of all three.

    They get a tail whip attack.
    There heals are abilities not spells.
    They get abilities that mimic many spells (such as spiked scales).

    They are not the premire spell casters, mages are.
    They are not the premire fighters, Warriors are.
    They are not the premire healers, Clearics (ok healers) are.

    But they do get a good sampling.

    They get debuff abilities like Shamans, and Blight users.
    They get self heals like many of the classes do.
    They get stuns in the form of Tail Whips (if I remember correctly)
    They get area attacks as breath weapons.
    Ranged attacks as dragon reach.
    And this is regardless of their "specialization" assuming they choose to specialise (which is really just spending TPs admittedly).

    But they do get many abilities that simulate other abilities/spells. Spiked Scales mimicing Cloak of Thornes. Debuffs (winds of something or other).

    The closest single biped class would be Druid, as druid has some fighting, some healing, some attacks. But lacks many of the abilities a dragon has.

    Again, I think it is the artifical cap on Dragons that causes the "bad" rep for Multiclassing.

    Not saying some "balance" isn't needed for dragons. But all in all there are some very nifty abilities dragons have, that bipeds never will. Again, depending on your view/play style depends on how useful they are.
    -Digit Dryad
    Chaos

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