If the King is naked, make him clothes or should you?

[Tryagain]

it is not up to the playerbase to save and develop a game any game. Its up to the developer.

The boards as they are here and in other places exist as they do purely due to Horizons progress or lack there of to date.

Remember people play the game to have fun. This isn't a religion.

The minute it becomes a job you have issues.

To use your analogy, the king has over taxed his subjects and spent the treasury. He needs to send his knights out to find the holy grail. For it is their quest to heal the land not one that belongs in the hands of the kings subjects and courtiers.

[imported_Zayin]

it may not be the player base to come up with in game lore but so what who really cares does it matter where the lore comes froms as long as it comes along?

[Tryagain]

because the average MMO player will not put up with this. The people left in game now are die hard loyalists. Some but not even all would like to take a proactive approach. Unfortunately Tulga needs sheer numbers to start turning a profit. Those sheer numbers won't take kindly walking into such a hornets nest.

The most the playerbase should be involved in is submitting quests via contests as already done and keeping up the discussions with constructive ideas on the discussion forum. Asking anything else is asking for trouble.

As said this quest lays in their hands not that of the players.

[LaughingOtter]

Do we get a discount for helping them do the job they get paid for ?

To quote Tonto'squestionto the Lone Ranger, "What do you mean 'we', white man?".

You aren't subscribing or contributing anything constructive, yet you continually ask for discounts & concessions. Players who contribute content to the game do so because they enjoy having a hand in the evolution of the story, not for a price break or any special favors. If the people who are are actually contributing don't get any financial reward, what makes you think you're entitled to one?

[Tryagain]

you misunderstood the sarcasm mr Otter.

Aemar loves the game. It has some fine qualities even if I do not think much of the man running it. But the sarcasm to note was that should the playerbase be in fact doing a job that the developers are paid to do and more importantly paid to do by the playerbase? Free investor money only goes so far before the game should be relying on subscriber dollars.

Then one can ask the question if you want to take a proactive approach how much faith and confidence do you have in Tulga Games to be able to pull this off ? Note that the last couple of patches though heradled by some do not instill much faith at all. I am not meaning to slam but its a logical deduction to be made here.

People like Aemar want the game to survive so they seem to be recognizing that Tulga can't do this. So then he wants the playerbase to take over Tulga's job ?

As said quest submissions are ok and something that has been done in MMO's. But how much more are we talking about above and beyond the quest submissions and the threads occuring over at the dicussion forum ?

[imported_Ssilmath]

Everything that we can...I for one, though I cannot speak for anyone else, am willing to write lore, come up with quests, make suggestions and provide feedback to my fullest capablities...I'll do whatever I can to make this game better, and expect nothing in return, just that I will be able to log into HZ for a long time to come...

I'm a fanboi...sue me

[Tryagain]

Everything that we can...I for one, though I cannot speak for anyone else, am willing to write lore, come up with quests, make suggestions and provide feedback to my fullest capablities...I'll do whatever I can to make this game better, and expect nothing in return, just that I will be able to log into HZ for a long time to come...

I'm a fanboi...sue me

yes lets hope Tulga is worthy of that kind of loyalty.

[LaughingOtter]

I think the kingknew he was naked quite some time ago- he just kept making bad fashion choices. [;)]

Seriously, though, a number of the issues that have been more frustrating & annoying than challanging have been removed recently. We are seeing new hiring, new content, a new promotion, and rumblings of epic spell quests, racial quests, new crystals, and a new tutorial & starting island setup, among other things.

I see the game and the company as emerging from 'survival mode' and working on the many things that had to be set aside in order to focus on keeping the game going. Now it's time to focus on making the game successful and fun.I like being a part of that - it's fun to meet new players,help them get going, and see the world we know so well throughnew eyes.

We can't change the past, but we can help shape the future. That's where our focus should be.

[X900BattleGrape]

I don't know how far this goes and i'm speaking as a complete noob here, but a reasonable portion of the gaming experience is social interaction. Part of the enjoyment will depend on the people behind the avatar, and their attitude. Moods are contageous, and personalities as well. Don't mean to suggest a lot of work does not need doing on Horizons, and that issues should be blindly ignored, just saying don't let them keep a rain cloud over you becaus each user's experience is to one degree or another dependant on other user's behavior, thoughts, and all that jazz.

[Phillip]

Aamer is simply doing his best to help the game which he's so loyal to. He's doing this possibly because those like him are becoming endangered species, and he knows it.

We know it too.

[Seikojin]

:o

We can't change the past, but we can help shape the future. That's where our focus should be.

That's my reasoning... And I think it makes not only perfect sense, but it is applicable as well...

Having the players contribute anything to the game can only be positive. You take the time and effort to create something for others to enjoy, and then reap the rewards by witnessing the fruits of your labor being consumed by others...

This is where introducing quest (or task) creation in game would be very useful. Intigration of the scripting tools makes it more interactive and drives more incentive for players to get involved in the process... Lo and some others have seen my suggestions... So its not inpossible...

The king is nakid, he knows it, we know it... He just is just a nudist and we seem to be perverse voyures (sp) :P

[Aamer Khan]

tryagain, your comment " People like Aemar want the game to survive so they seem to be recognizing that Tulga can't do this. So then he wants the playerbase to take over Tulga's job ?" is just another example of your twisting things to fit your mold.

First off, by carefully misspelling my name your showing distain for what I'm saying. Then you twist what I say into me recognizing things like you do. Then you pretend to understand my desires so as to make it seem that what I want is a counter to what should happen.

I'm don't normally respond to your comments, but what you say above illustrates your tactics and since you feel free to misuse my words, I feel free to clear up possible misconceptions.
Out of respect for the other players that DO enjoy Horizons and want to help it along, I'm not going to get into a debate with you in this thread or in the future. But I do feel that posters like you seem to want to destroy instead of construct. So, I felt the need to respond this one time.

What I recognize is that Tulga Games CAN make the game survive, and is working hard to do it. I don't think the playerbase should take over TG's job, but see the player made quests as a way for us to contribute to a recreation we all love. MANY of us are more than willing to contribute time and effort. I have made it very clear that I fully understand whats happend to get us here, and yet fully believe that TG can "pull it off".

You see, I'm not a blind fanboi. I have been around the block a few times and can clearly see that this can ( and as far as I can tell, ) IS getting better.

[Phillip]

many of us have been trying to help shape this game for the longest time, guys. threads such as this one is a normal occurence.

[Tryagain]

You see, I'm not a blind fanboi. I have been around the block a few times and can clearly see that this can ( and as far as I can tell, ) IS getting better.

Please get off your high horse. Honest to god you have some kind of " I personally am going to save Horizons " complex or something. Sorry I am much more direct to people I hold in disdain and would not stoop to levels like purposefully misspelling your name.

Do you actually believe that you are so omnipresent that your carebear posts here haven't been done before ? 10 months ago we had many prophets such as yourself getting up on the soapbox asking what we could do to help AE. We also in vain look to AE for leadership to help our cause. As with any religion where the gods do not listen these prophets and clerics to the cause lost hope and went away. It could be that they were labeled ambulance chasers and monday morning quarterbacks. Is that what you are being now ?

My point is thus and you can take it or leave it really. It is NOT UP TO THE playerbase to save a game. It is up to the developer to save the game and develop it properly. Cause I can tell this with much certainity THE ONLY way this is going to happen is if Tulga goes open source and I sure as hell can bet all my bank that they aren't going to do that.

So once again I ask what is it you want the playerbase to do ? Other than submitting quests ideas and having CONSTRUCTIVE discussions over at the discussion board there is NOTHING else that the playerbase should be doing. Cause it has all been done with this game before and nothing ever came of it. Your idea and stance is CERTAINLY nothing new arorund here.

[Zarcharien]

My point is thus and you can take it or leave it really. It is NOT UP TO THE playerbase to save a game. It is up to the developer to save the game and develop it properly. Cause I can tell this with much certainity THE ONLY way this is going to happen is if Tulga goes open source and I sure as hell can bet all my bank that they aren't going to do that.

Well according to this phrase the onlyway the game will be saved is if they go open source, which by your account will NEVER happen. Therefore, in your words this game CANNOT be saved right? So, those of us die hard blinded loyalist fanbois (or so we are often called [;)])should just pack it up now and move on? I'm guessing your a prophet too, just on a different side [:O].

I think you are correct when you say that it is"NOT UP TO THE playerbase to save the game". ThisIS Tulga's job andONLY THEY CAN DO IT!

However, I believe Aamer is correct also, the playerbase, atleast those that are willing, can make a difference in many ways in the game and it appears to me that Aamer is only looking for ways to accomplish this. If players want to hold shard wide player run events, then let them. If they want to enter into contests to write quests, then let them. If they want towrite up lore and stories and submit it to Tulga for possible use in game, then let them. If they want to stand around the New Isles all day and welcome new players, then let them. Believe it or not, many people enjoy doing things like this, so let them.

Maybe the King is not listening, or atleast listening as much as he should. And maybe the king is not making appearences to his audience like he should either (Hint to Tulga! [:D]). But. I find it really hard to fault others for trying to be constructive and positive. Sure, negativity has its place and value justas much as positive does, but overall it is whether it is constructive or not that makes the difference. But I think themain message here is that Tulga could do much better incommincating with its players, so lets hope the King takes notice once and for all.

[X900BattleGrape]

Isn't going open source implying that the user base is a key componet in saving the game?

[Phillip]

i think the only way to save this game is to bring in someone who can truly see what's wrong with HZ and make changes necessary. this means changing the game model, direction, some concepts, possibly the engine itself.

the devs we got now don't see things for what they are, as we do. they may claim they do. they may acknowledge they do. they may have made some changes here and there to make us feel they do. however, the big picture, of the things truly missing, things exciting, things fun, things essential that's been thought of, disected, spoken for and beaten to death are largely ignored.

the game model is flawed, the economic model is flawed, the concept of fun is flawed, for the bulk of MMORPGers out there. the devscan't see this. they proved it for a long time now. they have proved that since beta, for threads like these have existed since even back then.

we are all truly, ambulance chasers and Monday morning quaterbacks.

[Vahrokh]

What I find odd, it's listening since a year about the "bad engine".

So far there's the link to 400 games using it.

http://www.radgametools.com/gragames.htm


Notice the little presence of titles like:

Neverwinter Nights 2
Guild Wars
Ultima Online: Age of Shadows, Ultima Online: Lord Blackthorn's Revenge, Medal of Honor Pacific Assault, Ultima Online: Samurai Empire, Ultima Online 7th Anniversary Edition
Evil Genius
Age of Mythology for Windows, Age of Mythology: The Titans
Stronghold 2
EverQuest II, Planetside for Windows, Planetside: Core Combat for Windows
Middle-Earth Onlinefor Windows, Dungeons & Dragons® Online for Windows

Now, some of these games are planned, many are done.
How many are slow, ankward, buggy, choppy and troublesome like Horizons?

And notice how Horizons - the online part -does really little besides forwarding (with no tampering check) a player position to the nearby ones or spawning and doing some pretty basic AI with the mobs (plus it saves some of the timers status).

And notice how that while the engine would probably be fixed one day, I fully agree that the developers could be geniuses in programming, but as for gameplay...

I suggest they take an extensive course in:

-Baldur's Gate II (yes, there's an official Tulga announcement about they reviewing single player games, so it's pertinent)

- Planescape: Torment

- Arcanum.

- Morrowind.

- Many others. For the suspence and the involvement I cannot forget KotOR I and II even if they are not medieval placed (still they are roleplay with stats, levels etc).

- Wow. Yes, look at the competition. That game has many limits but gets the numbers and shows that who planned it knows what gamers want.

[Aamer Khan]

Part of what I'm saying in this thread, has indeed been said before. Equally, the same dire predictions and attention to who has done what wrong, has been around since beta.

And yet, here we are, a year later still playing this game, still having fun, still "hanging on".

If you are interested in helping to directly support this game, by submitting quests, suggestions, bug reports, constructive suggestions, then thats exactly what you should do. I for one appreciate any of these efforts and I'm VERY sure so do the developers.

[Pharcellus]

Umm.. Granny is NOT "the engine". Granny is nothing more than the animator. That's it.

The "engine" is a combination of several different things, including Intrinsic Alchemy (the renderer), Granny (the animator), Miles (the sound system), DPVS (part of the renderer pipe), the Evolution client, and a bunch of custom code to glue it all together and provide the UI.

Pointing at Granny3D and saying that over 400 games use it is like pointing at a spark plug and saying 400 models of car use it.