If the King is naked, make him clothes or should you?

[Vahrokh]

Ok, since we are to split hairs in 10, I'll point out at the Alchemy engine's software house being acquired by Activision and co-developing Doom III with ID Software for XBox or other several references.
I doubt ID software would use a piece of rubbish, don't you?

Or I could poing out that Miles Sound System is out since DOS times and has thousand games sporting it and a pillar in LucasArts music and sound rich games since years.


In fact, what I wanted to say, it's that at AE they made the "glue" tying all of those successfull and already made libraries together. Like many software house do nowadays.
And guess what? It's in the glue that live the problems.

[Phillip]

"If you are interested in helping to directly support this game, by submitting quests, suggestions, bug reports, constructive suggestions, then thats exactly what you should do. I for one appreciate any of these efforts and I'm VERY sure so do the developers."

i understand your view on this and you have been consistant with the concept. for me, and quite a few others, is that we need to point straight to the areas that's in dire need and not neccessarily be diplomatic about it, for that's been done already, and we already know the outcome.

i think it is best at this time to simply let the devs know straight up, that their product do have great potential, phenominal potential, enough to still keep some of us here, but that they have managed to take what may have been the greatest game ever, and &%*^ed it up BIG TIME. it's time to realize it, own up to it, and get it to work.

and it's also time to realize that the fanbois have lost. especially those who rejected, shouted down many of the great suggestions in the past that would have turned this game around.

[Aamer Khan]

All of what you say is subjective.

We no more know earlier suggestions would have turned this game around than we "know" what the outcome of any new ones will be.

Trying to be diplomatic is never a bad idea. However, are there problems? Sure, yes, ok, we ALL know there are. But what problems do you think they should fix first? The ones that affect You the most, or the ones that affect me the most? We can pretend to be able to fortell the future of any action, but thats silly. Horizons has proven to be the odd, once in a blue moon beastie that despite all predictions, slowdowns, layoffs, bancruptcy, and being sold, is still slowly improving.

It's too bad that we all don't get what we want. It's too bad AE made mistakes and bad choices. It's too bad we foolishly keep playing a game so obviously broken. It's really sad there are still players who login every day to enjoy this world.

I could not care less about pointing out things that are well known, or attempting to make someone "own up" to what has come before. I just want to see it continue to improve. We CAN be a part of that, if we choose. If you don't want to... just don't.

[Crazyfingers]

Over and over and over and over. Go back a month, two months, three months, 8 months. Its the same ******** thing! Same ******** people trying to defend the slackers and somehow blaming it on the ******** disgruntle customer. The only way us customers can be a part of the so called turn around is to keep on their asses.
OVER AND OVER AND OVER. We cant fix it, make it smurfy only they can. Quit putting the blame on us Aamer. Im not the one procrastinating. Same ol same ol, two different mind frames. People that post in disgust hoping the devs listen and their opposite sticking up for them reversing the blame.

NimKhazad

[LaughingOtter]

Nobody is blaming the customer base. You're quite correct - the customers did not make the decisions or the changes. That's not the issue.

The issue is, are you going to spend all your time and energy screaming about everything you dislike, or are you going to be willing to provide constructive, honest feedback about the issues that concern you?

Anger, threats, ultimatums, abuse - that's not a very good way to get your point across.

[Tryagain]

If you are interested in helping to directly support this game, by submitting quests, suggestions, bug reports, constructive suggestions, then thats exactly what you should do. I for one appreciate any of these efforts and I'm VERY sure so do the developers.

Exactly and that is all the playerbase should be doing. Such is done in most MMO's. Remember this one thing that holds true for everyone. Those that do not LEARN from history are doomed to repeat it. In Tulga's case they need to be reminded every once and awhile.

Oh and Zach do not change my words around. If Horizons is still around now obviously it doesn't need saving does it ;). If it does that its up to Tulga to see the obvious signs that it does indeed need saving.

[Aamer Khan]

Its truly amazing to post in these boards...

The fact that those reading and posting strong reactions to what I have posted, show that they no more listen than the evil Dev's.

I am NOT blaming the paying customers, I'm saying we can help as has been demonstrated. The only fault lays on AE. Now TG wants to help it turn around. They are listenting.

Appearently they listen and actually read what is posted better then some of the ones responding here.

[AZVladimir]

Its truly amazing to post in these boards...

The fact that those reading and posting strong reactions to what I have posted, show that they no more listen than the evil Dev's.

I am NOT blaming the paying customers, I'm saying we can help as has been demonstrated. The only fault lays on AE. Now TG wants to help it turn around. They are listenting.

Appearently they listen and actually read what is posted better then some of the ones responding here.

I am not taking anyone's side, but I have to question this last statement. Are the Dev's listening? Frankly the only posts by Dev's I ever see are in response to technical questions. There have been dozens of posts requesting that TG/AE just update us occasionally. What is being worked on, what is priority, etc. I have yet to see a cohesive and ongoing source of information from AE. In fact, the vast majority of information seems to filter in from the IRC in an informal fashion.

Crazyfingers said 'we have to climb on their lazy butts and beat them like a mule' (my paraphrase) and I don't exactly agree with it. However, he calls the Dev's lazy and frankly none of us can tell if they spend 12 hours a dayhammering overcode or they just eat donuts and kick out an update occasionally. The only thing we know for a fact is that they consitently miss their own self-set deadlines, and since we have no source of information we are left to our own speculations. Maybe that is how they have choosen to do business, maybe that is how they are forced to do business, but in the end they still need to relate that information. Either shut down the IRC, tell everyone 'sit down and shut up' and make it policy or they need to step up and give us a formalized source of information.

And statements like 'they are working hard' is just supposition. None of us know how long it takes to code and debug AROP. Maybe 50 man-hours, maybe 2,000 because unless you are a professional programmer who has actually worked on the HZ engine YOU HAVE NO IDEA (and don't get me started with all these armchair programmers who are busy redesigning the entire engine after 2 classes in Fortran and never having seen the working code). So we have nosense if they are working hard, working smart or just surfing Jobing.com


AZV

[Seikojin]

:o
If you REALLY want to change the game, all you have to do is be polite and submit feedback tickets...

The forums are looked at, but they wont be looked at forever... Just submit tickets... You may not know it, but they have to be responded to and looked at... Processed and dealt with...

We hear the same thing over and over in the forums... Maybe if the same numbers were put in feedback tickets, there would be some changes made...

All this bickering will get you nowhere... except maybe a hospital for a heart attack or stroke.

[Aamer Khan]

Az

I'm 48 years old. I got my first computer BEFORE there were pc's. I am a professional programmer, and work with MSSQL, Mysql, Pick, Unix, AIX, Linux and windows server everyday.

Unlike some here, I and others DO have a clear idea. My only fault with them is that they often claim an ETA they cannot in reality meet. At work in RL, we are in the middle of 5 total system conversions. I fully understand what is going on.

My patience come from 26 years of making a living programming computers, writing custom applications and managing databases. I can tell you from experience that what AE started, and now TG is trying to finish is a true accomplishment.

The thing is, communication IS taking place. Not to your liking mind you, but IS happening. My willingness to put up with what we see currently comes from years of working through problems, to finally see a fine product. I see this here with TG and Horizons. Some of the more resonable posters are also in IT and also see the problems, and possiblities.

[Kulamata]

The devs are asking for suggestions, and recent events have shown that they do indeed listen, and act on players' requests.

So, on the grounds that 200 heads may be better than 20, try to make useful suggestions. They may be picked up and implemented. We've seen a quest from the players implemented, and changes in AROP and lairs resulting from player feedback. Howver, ranting about how the management didn't listen in beta isn't going to help at all. Remember, these people had the good sense to conduct a survey not only of current players, but explayers as well.

One of the awkward rules of software development is that adding people to the staff may well result in things slowing down for a while as the new people need time and attention from the existing staff. Another awkward bit is the poor success rate of major software projects. About 30% fail outright, and 40% fail to meet schedule, budget, or performance goals. They're actually doing pretty well, although there seems to be a structural SQA problem.

What we can reasonably ask is that the efforts to improve the game are headed in the right direction, and I believe that they now are.

Let's not be so inflexible that we can't accept "yes" as an answer.

[Peter1968]

Az

I'm 48 years old. I got my first computer BEFORE there were pc's. I am a professional programmer, and work with MSSQL, Mysql, Pick, Unix, AIX, Linux and windows server everyday.

Your argument lost most of its force right there. How many people you know like the "I'm older than you and therefore know more than you" argument, or, for that matter, see it as logical?

So, you've managed to stay alive for 48 years; what of it?

[Rainbow]

My suggestion would centre on me, however, I feel sure, that my issue affects others too.

I would suggest that a smooth gameplay should be the top priority before anything else at this moment.

I am not technical minded and so have no clue how to achieve that or whether it can even be achieved at all. I know though, that I can log into WoW and even good old UO with ease and play without getting laggier and laggier and crashing. Same computer but different results for all the time that I was paying to play Horizons.

I do not want to log in and dread needing to make gates. I do not want to log in and dread going to fight some monsters that either never ever appear or suddenly a huge army of them has appeared on top of my head as I fiddle about hoping to start the spawn off. I do not want to log in and watch as my Elf gradually begins to run like a drunk until the game freezes and crashes even my ISP.

I could not care less for doors, furniture, blighted thingsor new monsters to fight anymore. What is the point of all that if thirty minutes into the game I am in freeze mode and unable to enjoy them anyway?

It just strikes me that the most logical step is to mend the broken whatever it is that causes the crappy game performance before attempting anything else. If it cannot be mended then I will not re-subscribe to enjoy snippets of a game when there are other games available that do manage a smooth time for me in game.

My hope is that the serious broken bit will be mended as although WoW offers an incredible game, and UO will never die, the Horizons concept at release is still very appealing to me.

So my suggestion is, please Tulga mend whatever it is that needs mending to allow me and probably others to have a smooth gaming experience before you add any more frilly bits.

And if they are unable to do that then surely they have reached a stalemate position.


Rainbow

[C`gan]

Crazyfingers said 'we have to climb on their lazy butts and beat them like a mule' (my paraphrase) and I don't exactly agree with it. However, he calls the Dev's lazy and frankly none of us can tell if they spend 12 hours a dayhammering overcode or they just eat donuts and kick out an update occasionally. The only thing we know for a fact is that they consitently miss their own self-set deadlines, and since we have no source of information we are left to our own speculations. Maybe that is how they have choosen to do business, maybe that is how they are forced to do business, but in the end they still need to relate that information. Either shut down the IRC, tell everyone 'sit down and shut up' and make it policy or they need to step up and give us a formalized source of information.

And statements like 'they are working hard' is just supposition. None of us know how long it takes to code and debug AROP. Maybe 50 man-hours, maybe 2,000 because unless you are a professional programmer who has actually worked on the HZ engine YOU HAVE NO IDEA (and don't get me started with all these armchair programmers who are busy redesigning the entire engine after 2 classes in Fortran and never having seen the working code). So we have nosense if they are working hard, working smart or just surfing Jobing.com


AZV

I know that they're working on things. For instance, over the past week and weekend, Amerle, Zideon, Amon, and who knows how many others who weren't doing the replying back and forth were working on my error ticket that had to do with the fact that I've not been able to patch on my home dialup since October. Every patch I've had to take my computer to work or to a friend's or somewhere that had either DSL or cable. Not only that, but the team is also on IRC fielding questions and trying to work through things there as well as getting new content, bugs fixed, more player-requested content, and new content worked on.

Personally, I want to thank the team. I have one more test I want to do tonight with deleting a LARGE file and seeing how the patching works. After that, I think the ticket can be closed for good.

[AZVladimir]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Aamer Khan wrote: Az

I'm 48 years old. I got my first computer BEFORE there were pc's. I am a professional programmer, and work with MSSQL, Mysql, Pick, Unix, AIX, Linux and windows server everyday.

Your argument lost most of its force right there. How many people you know like the "I'm older than you and therefore know more than you" argument, or, for that matter, see it as logical?

So, you've managed to stay alive for 48 years; what of it?

Lol. I don't know peter, staying alive 48 years for some people IS a feat. But your right, it doesn't mean much. My first computer was built from a HealthKit with a television monitor, a tapedeck (hard drive) and a big metal box. It had 8k of memory and you had to write your programs. I was on the Internet back when you had to scam an account from a college to do it (not even Unix, Vax/Vms). The only thing that it has taught me over the years is how much I *don't* know.


AZV

[Entilzah]

Spotting a possible derailmment, just a friendly nudge to get things back to the core of the topic [;)]

[Aamer Khan]

Actually my bad Entilzh...

[Rainbow]

I actually read Aamer's age comment as meaning he probably has mellowed and grown more patient as he has got older, not that he knew anymore than younger people.

But now I digress too - sorry - *slaps naughty self*

Rainbow

[Seikojin]

:o hehehe Aamer... Seems like his fuse hit the powder... I totally know where your comming from. I may not have the experience, or the knowledge you do... But I know quite a bit I hope, and know enough to see the process going on and the movements being taken...

Hence why I say submit feedback, dont swear, no flaming... These things serve to push people away... Yes the devs are people, and they get insulted when they come here like others do...

I know we all have days where something just sets us off... But its not a good idea to push the people whos attention you want away...

And on the topic... I believe the king knows hes naked, and is saying WTH?! I gotta get some clothes on!

Lots of feedback comming from devs, and balance efforts being done... I likey

[Alladania]

Well, whatever else Horizons has done, there sure are a lot of people passionate enough to tear their hair and rend their clothes - even when they're not playing anymore.

I've been playing since beta. I have two active accounts currently. My gaming time is fairly limited. I have an almost five year old daughter with autism so I have to be able to recall and go at a moment's notice. I haveno level 100 characters in anything. I believe my highest is reaver 83 maybe. I'm not blind to the faults of the game. I get frustrated with lag and invisible mobs as much as the next person, but the good outweighs the bad for me. I love the people in our guild. I enjoy the community (for the most part - you know how that is.). I like that I can putter. Sometimes I fight. Sometimes I craft. I'm not tied down. While I do have one higher level character, most of my people are in the low 20s. To the new players I would say, this game has a lot to offer. I have fun.

I don't think the king is naked. I think he's just dressed casual. ..Okay, maybe he looks like one of the Survivors after a week or two in their street clothes on the island.