Official ARoP Starting Requirement Discussion Thread

[Amerelium]

...primarily money and spellcrafting...

[Goriax]

In-game time requirements are really stupid. All you have to do is stay logged on afk. They were right to not have one.

The devs have said that experience and level are the ultimate gauge of how much a dragon's been played. Sure they can be powerleveled but at least you can't fulfill the requirement AFK for literally days at a time.

This is not about how much pain existing dragons have gone through. Ok, so you created your dragon on day one and have been through all the ups and downs.The ARoP is NOT your reward for that.

Presumably they're still thinking about the long haul -- how is this going to play going forward. They are right to think that way. In that sense, dragons who immediately qualify to start the ARoP the moment it's released should be a very minor consideration. They are hopefully a small fraction of the total number of dragons who will eventually become ancient. What should count is the overall gameplay from this point on. The most important kinds of arguments are those which pretty much ignore existing high level players, and ask how this will add to the fun of the game for someone who starts playing next month and who will continue to play for a couple years thereafter.

I realize some people posting here literally have no life and have in-game /played times well in excess of 100 days -- sometimes with multiple characters. HZ has never tried to cater to such people thankfully. It would be sad if the most important requirement for success in HZ was that you had no job, no family and literally nothing to do in your life except play games.

By the way, you DO know that this is supposed to be fun don't you?

[Jaraiden]

We all know a dragon needs to be level 100 adventure to have a chance to defeat the monsters. Not finishing the trainers' "Kill X of Y" tasks for better abilities is self-gimping (just like not seeking the Wish Giverfor passive statistic boosts).

These may be requirements to start the adult RoP to Ancient, but I seriously doubt TulgAE will have such finishing requirements:

* Hoard of 5 million (you know that stuff dragons desire to possess, that the Council should expect their kin to have)
* Days since creation of 230 (per DB's own words as adult dragons then fulfilled other requirements back in July 2004)
* Days since adult of 100 days (for that wisdom Ancients have, per the November 2003 video)
* Crafting level of 90+ (again, knowledge and yes TulgAE may wimp out with a dragon changing at his altar, but surely detracts from their established lore of Statue of your Adult Self and Phylactery - will the altar do both?)

So, going by what others have posted (and noting the subject line), we should wait for the "Official ARoP Finishing Requirement Discussion Thread"

[refuse]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]refuse wrote: Third example.
Say they just Leave themselves logged into the game as long as possible each day, so it takes only 30 days "in game" assuming no CTDs, or game drops. The requirement of 100 days is a harsher limit.

That's why most people who made REAL suggestions (not ones along the lines of the hyperbole crap in the rest of your post) suggested BOTH a "time since creation" requirement AND an "in-game time" requirement.

Sorry, didn't realise I had to agree with you or I posted crap.

Lets see 100 days since creation. Ok, easy.
Lets see 30 days in game. While at work, leave dragon logged in.

Oh wait, you actually had a point?

Nope, I was pointing out the "in game timer" can be bypassed just as easily as the time since creation timer.

But then again, you know it all so you knew that too.

Sure we can. Why can't we realistically expect it to be a year from the time you create your Dragon toon until he/she eligible for the ARoP, amongst other, similarly stringent requirements?

You can, sure.
Then again, I don't have to. Why not realistically? Because why should it be time based? Why not skill based? If they play andget the levels (say they play 24 hours a day and are done in 40 days). Sorry, you have to wait another 11 months.

Ancient is the end; the pinnacle of our progression. Yeah, there may be ancient-targeted content beyond that, but I really liked the notion (which I started out with since before beta) that I would have a nice, long wait while I levelled and enjoyed the existing content until that day, having plenty of time to prepare for it. It was to be representative of my long-term will and patience to persevere through the hardships of youth and growth to finally reach that pinnacle, and be judged worthy to enter that realm with the rest of my kind. Makes great story AND great gameplay sense to me! [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img]

Guess you misjudged the game.
Why can't a person rise to greatness quickly?

Doesn't fit your model?
Why can't a person play their own style?
Oh, again doesn't fit your model?

You liked the notion, other people don't. Then again, other's opinions are crap (always a good word to use when making a point.)

No, "everyone" doesn't want any such ******** thing. I don't care, make them even tougher so that no one qualifies right at release. Gives us something to work towards, a challenge to look forward to.

BUt make it a requirement you can't work toward except to wait?

30 days in game?
1 year since creation.
How do you work towards that?

Yes, make it something you can obtain through effort, not some "arbitrary" time requirement.

At the time when many of us made really stringent suggestions (and when we expected the ARoP to begin), we didn't even meet them. In beta, I fully expected them to make the RoP requirment to be 3-6 months since creation, and Ancient RoP requirements to be 1-2 years since creation. Of course, I also expected a lot of things back in beta that would come to pass by even this time to fill the interim time with good gameplay, but that's another issue.

Contrary to your ridiculous suggestions, I (and others) have proposed nothing but objective metrics that anyone with patience and perseverence could achieve, in time.

But why is even time in this discussion?

"Sorry, you only bought the game a month ago and played 24 hours a day while soloing through all the content, but you must wait until this arbitrary time limit has passed."

Of course they were ridiculous, that was my point. Just because you think it is objective, doesn't make it so. Metrics? What metrics? You feel that X is long enough? That doesn't make it objective.

Again, what does "time in game" have anything to do with readyness, value, or striving for to be in an AROP? I can imagine it now. Fields of dragons sitting there to meet this "time in game" requirement. Oh wait, I bet next we will have a requirement suggestion of "30 days in game where you have pressed a key every 5 minutes". Or better yet "30 days in game where you killed one mob every 30 minutes".

Again, how is some time since creation, or time in game even remotely involved with the game? Or objective?




[/quote]Uhhh, hate to break this to ya, but doing adventurer quests to kill mobs fits well within a PLer's normal activities. How anyone thinks this is even a minor bump in the carpet to a PLer is beyond me. "Ooo! I get XP for killing mobs, XP for talking to a trainer before and after I kill mobs, and an ability to help me kill even faster afterwards! Kewl d00d!".
[/quote]
Uh, hate to break it to you.
PLing killing Gritus Maximus wouldn't be much of power leveling.

The point is they have to do the quests. The object of power leveling (would be to? Ah, gain levels). Adventure quests to go kill 20 of this, and 20 of that kind of defeats the purpose of power leveling. Since you don't just sit and kill mobs for levels. Maybe it is quickly advancing the dragon through the quests.

Which brings up a point. Any dragons here do 100% of the RoP alone? No help at any point?

Hmm, wouldn't that fall into your above argument? Make it worth striving for (do it alone), make it difficult but do able? Make it so there is a value in doing it. Not some "Get help to get through the Rop" kind of deal.

Oh I know, I am just full of crap and I don't agree with you and your objective metrics.

I don't believe in the time requirement. Very silly if you ask me. I have been playing my biped for most of 8 months and have about 24 days in game. Seems silly that one of the defining abilities for becoming a dragon would be "how well you wait".

I much rather have the ARoP have no time requirement, while having a very complex (as mentioned above) set of tests to test the dragon's abilities. Shake out the dragon's abilities to those of legend as described in the quest fluff (intro).


My opinion. Have it a developing thing.And tough on the character, but as mentioned, no instanced worlds so no "individual" tests.

Then again, like I said, what do I know. I am not objective, and I am full of crap and only your opinion matters.

[Pharcellus]

You mean like banners?

Can still get them today. Nothing special about them.

Or vengence forms?

The ONLY thing that would currently qualify (except for Dryad event mob items, none of which are useful to a Dragon), and it has been more or less stated that they will be coming back soon. When they do, nothing special about them.

Or crimson scourge rings

Still drop today. Nothing special about them.

or scarab rings?

The forms drop off of mobs, and I believe they are still for sale on the NPC in the desert town. The only problem is the lack of scarabs, which makes having them useless no matter what.

Or haloween masks?

Event happens every year. Nothing special about them.

or festival candies?

Can still get the forms now, even 4 months after they reappeared again. Event happens every year where you can get them. Nothing special about them.

I think "items of mentions" should be through quests. If you participate you get it.

Fine, implement quests/events where we can get special this-time-only rewards that remain useful from then on out, and I will agree. Until then, I'll look for other sources for that "being here then was your reward" feeling.

3 monts is 93 days at most! [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img] And I am pretty sure there are not 3 31 day months in a row so the best they can do with 3 monts is 92 days. Not long enough to be an ancient!

Uhh, free month + 3 month sub = 123 days "at most". If you're gonna nitpick, at least get a clue about what you are nitpicking first, k?

Then again, if they play hard, do all the quests listed above, and are the right level.. . . . The requirements are done.

Yup. Done! Finite! Hasta luego! Renew? Why? I beat Horizons!

The problem is in game time is subjective.
How many hours a day do you play?
Why can't they just log themselves in, and leave the computer on for 30 days? Does that make it any more "difficult" to get to Ancient?

Sure, but if they just log themselves in, and leave the computer on for 30 days, then they aren't doing their quests, are they? It has been said before (how many times?) that any one "tough" requirement can easily be circumvented in an extreme case. However, the point is that multiple "tough" requirements make the "easy mitigation" cases significantly more extreme and more unlikely.

And for the bipeds?
Oh right, everything has always worked.
It is the "pump the game gimick" event that is all it is. Horizons has dragons, no one else does. Posting "you can't be the biggest dragon for a year" isn't going to work. I have never heard of a game requiring a "time before being able to do something" requirement before. Alone I think the 100 days is silly. Sorry, to me it is a ploy to make people pay for 4 months.

Worked? For the most part, it has. If not, preserve your time investment by switching classes for free to something else until it is fixed, then go back and gorge yourself on the new fixes.

I'm sure there will be people who see it as a "make you pay for months" gimmick. I think that there will be just as many others who will go "Cool! A worthwhile goal to work towards!".

I think the 100 days is silly, too. It really isn't a requirement at all, so why even have it? Just turn on the Gate of Embers and have Drulkar's dialog say "Welcome, my impetulent child! Click here for your final reward, then go away and don't bother me anymore."

[Goriax]

I earlier said that no instancing==can't force people to do an encounter solo but I may have been wrong.

Actually, they could force something to be done solo with a little coding. After all, they keep track of who does damage to a mob for experience allocation and loot rights. I doubt it would be a big deal to keep track of who heals or buffs the dragon.

Just not have it count unless you did all the damage andyou were not healed or buffed by anyone but yourself. The biggest weakness to that approach is not HELP from other players, but GRIEFING. Someone could camp a key ARoP mob and toss a heal on everyone who tries to fight it.

[Pharcellus]

Sorry, didn't realise I had to agree with you or I posted crap.

I don't give a ******** whether you agree with me or not, but I will feel free to call you on your BS just as much as you feel the need to call me and others on "ours".

Lets see 100 days since creation. Ok, easy.
Lets see 30 days in game. While at work, leave dragon logged in.

Cool, then add hoard requirements, quest completion, time since adult, etc. Let's see the "exanple" you come up with to beat all that.[8-)]

Oh wait, you actually had a point?

Yeah, that you don't read anything but what you want to and make up BS. Go figure.

Nope, I was pointing out the "in game timer" can be bypassed just as easily as the time since creation timer.

Sure it can, BY ITSELF. What part of this are you missing?

But then again, you know it all so you knew that too.

Yep. I know it all. Woo hoo! I know even how you will respond to this, too! I can predict the future and can shape it via my very thought.[:D]

You can, sure.
Then again, I don't have to. Why not realistically? Because why should it be time based? Why not skill based? If they play andget the levels (say they play 24 hours a day and are done in 40 days). Sorry, you have to wait another 11 months.

Why not both? Time represents growth in RP. Hell, what is the base meaning of the word "Ancient"?? HELLO??? "Been around a while" sounds pretty good to me.

Guess you misjudged the game.
Why can't a person rise to greatness quickly?

Yeah, it's a common problem with many ex-Horizons players. Who says a hatchling can't be "great"? Who says an adult can't be "great"? What's the point in having that 20-something miles in-between the start and finish lines in a marathon? Or having the other 499 laps in the Indy 500? Woohoo! You're great! You WON!

Doesn't fit your model?
Why can't a person play their own style?
Oh, again doesn't fit your model?

..and yours is supposed to be better than mine, eh?

You liked the notion, other people don't. Then again, other's opinions are crap (always a good word to use when making a point.)

Au contraire, some people like my notions, some people don't. Doesn't make my take on the situation any more or less valid than yours.

BTW, the "crap" reference was not to your opinions in general, but the silly red herring "subjective requirements" that no one ever came close to in their suggestions. However, I figured you would twist it into a more general attack on your credibility. Fine.

BUt make it a requirement you can't work toward except to wait?

30 days in game?
1 year since creation.
How do you work towards that?

Yes, make it something you can obtain through effort, not some "arbitrary" time requirement.

If the game offerred a way to model a known quantity of effort over time, then fine, make it all effort-based. However, since effort over time can be highly exaggerated in Horizons, dredge up a game mechanic to compensate. I hate it, too, but I hate worse the notion of 100-day old "Ancients" who don't even come close to fulfilling the meaning of that word. So, I choose the lesser of two evils.

But why is even time in this discussion?

Because it makes more sense than not having it. What's the point in having a legal drinking age? It's an arbitrary time limit, too. Your parents surely did right by you and made you into a responsible person who is well-conditioned to drink responsibly long before that age, right?

Of course they were ridiculous, that was my point. Just because you think it is objective, doesn't make it so. Metrics? What metrics? You feel that X is long enough? That doesn't make it objective.

No, what makes it objective is, once set, it is not a subjective mechanic, unlike your "color of your dragon / name of your dragon" hyperbole.

Again, how is some time since creation, or time in game even remotely involved with the game? Or objective?

Simple, it represents "age". Hence "Ancient". Objective because, once set, it doesn't require constant, individual judgment of another based on a moving target.

Uh, hate to break it to you.
PLing killing Gritus Maximus wouldn't be much of power leveling.

Never said it was; my point, thank you.

The point is they have to do the quests. The object of power leveling (would be to? Ah, gain levels). Adventure quests to go kill 20 of this, and 20 of that kind of defeats the purpose of power leveling. Since you don't just sit and kill mobs for levels. Maybe it is quickly advancing the dragon through the quests.

Seems to go right along with it. Killing a bunch of mobs in one area at one sitting. Hello? Elnath? OK, so we don't do Elnath today. We do the Arbotus in Feladan forest. What? A named Obsidian golem? Cool! We can bag him then go mass-killing the nearby opal golem spawn. Works hand-in-hand.

I am not saying doing quests IS powerlevelling by itself, but it is not the impediment to them that you seem to keep implying.

Which brings up a point. Any dragons here do 100% of the RoP alone? No help at any point?

Hmm, wouldn't that fall into your above argument? Make it worth striving for (do it alone), make it difficult but do able? Make it so there is a value in doing it. Not some "Get help to get through the Rop" kind of deal.

Yup. I even remember L100 Dragons who did all or most of the RoP solo the week it was released. Sounds good to me. I hope the ARoP is a major pain in the ****** to complete. I hope the rewards are worth it. However, the game engine and mechanics cannot be fine-tuned to that extent, so I seriously doubt that the Rite itself will be much of a challenge even for someone PLing a hatchling to Ancient. It ultimately will be a waiting game. Hell, even the ARoP itself is slated to be released in stages over a time period. So, people will do this week's chapter the day it is turned on, then wait around until the next chapter is released, and so on. I think that is cool. Gives us time to prepare and enjoy the content instead of rushing through it. However, I guess because it will have an arbitrary "rest period" between chapters you'll hate it, right?

Oh I know, I am just full of crap and I don't agree with you and your objective metrics.

From your lips to the devs' ears, bud.

I don't believe in the time requirement. Very silly if you ask me. I have been playing my biped for most of 8 months and have about 24 days in game. Seems silly that one of the defining abilities for becoming a dragon would be "how well you wait".

Patience is a virtue. Dragons are paragons of patience. Sounds like a great way to test that, eh? [:)]

I much rather have the ARoP have no time requirement, while having a very complex (as mentioned above) set of tests to test the dragon's abilities. Shake out the dragon's abilities to those of legend as described in the quest fluff (intro).

Yeah, I'd like to live in your perfect world, too. Unfortunately, the devs don't live in one, nor does the game provide one.

Then again, like I said, what do I know. I am not objective, and I am full of crap and only your opinion matters.

Yup. That's what I said. Sure thing. Whatever you say. Go go gadget Word-Twister![8-)][+o(]

[Amerelium]

you two jokers are missing the point of this thread - go and squabble it out in the rants section...

[refuse]

You mean like banners?

Can still get them today. Nothing special about them.

Or vengence forms?

The ONLY thing that would currently qualify (except for Dryad event mob items, none of which are useful to a Dragon), and it has been more or less stated that they will be coming back soon. When they do, nothing special about them.

Or crimson scourge rings

Still drop today. Nothing special about them.

or scarab rings?

The forms drop off of mobs, and I believe they are still for sale on the NPC in the desert town. The only problem is the lack of scarabs, which makes having them useless no matter what.

Or haloween masks?

Event happens every year. Nothing special about them.

or festival candies?

Can still get the forms now, even 4 months after they reappeared again. Event happens every year where you can get them. Nothing special about them.

Fair enough.

I had meant as examples. Yes, the number of "dragon" specific items is low (non-existant).

Fine, implement quests/events where we can get special this-time-only rewards that remain useful from then on out, and I will agree. Until then, I'll look for other sources for that "being here then was your reward" feeling.

Events yep.

Uhh, free month + 3 month sub = 123 days "at most". If you're gonna nitpick, at least get a clue about what you are nitpicking first, k?

:) then again 7 Days + 3 month = 99 days, perhaps that is what they are doing. 100 is pay for a fourth month.
And I have never seen the 1 free month. Unles syou mean this month, wihch is about 1/2 over.
Or do you mean buy the game (not free) and get 1 free month (so really not free either). So nitpicking, not sure how you get a "free" month. Unless someone buys you the game.

Yup. Done! Finite! Hasta luego! Renew? Why? I beat Horizons!

And we are there/have been there for some time now.

Making it an arbitrary time to performa an action is really just saying "we can't come up with anything, so wait 100 days".

I think your point (and mine) is that requirements need to be met, and they need to be doable. Time as a requirement is a cop out. "Sorry can't think up any good content so wait 100 days!" The game was over when they use time as a measure for in game "time". Now real life is a requirement for a game!

Sure, but if they just log themselves in, and leave the computer on for 30 days, then they aren't doing their quests, are they? It has been said before (how many times?) that any one "tough" requirement can easily be circumvented in an extreme case. However, the point is that multiple "tough" requirements make the "easy mitigation" cases significantly more extreme and more unlikely.

THey play when they are there, and they artificially age themselves when they are not.

Again, yes, "tough requirements" is a good thing.

"Time" as a "tough" requiremetn is lazyness. How does real life time, or even in game time, equate to "content" and tough requirements.

It is something that is a weak limitation due to the lack of a better idea.

Worked? For the most part, it has. If not, preserve your time investment by switching classes for free to something else until it is fixed, then go back and gorge yourself on the new fixes.

Make an alt.

I'm sure there will be people who see it as a "make you pay for months" gimmick. I think that there will be just as many others who will go "Cool! A worthwhile goal to work towards!".

And I think that everyone would agreee thatan "in game" requirement to accomplish, that was thought out to prevent "power levelers" or some other such thing would be better then "100 days since creation", or "30 days in game". How is that a "cool worthwhile goal?" Yeah, uh. So you have to have made a character, and waited 100 days. yeah, cool worth while goal.

Or you made a character, finished everything (an example) in 60 days. Now you goal? Oh to wait 40 more days. Yeah, I can really see how that is a cool goal.

Oh wait, what do they do for those 40 days?

I think the 100 days is silly, too. It really isn't a requirement at all, so why even have it? Just turn on the Gate of Embers and have Drulkar's dialog say "Welcome, my impetulent child! Click here for your final reward, then go away and don't bother me anymore."

Ah, sorry others already did that earlier.

Then again, waiting 100 days is a goal?
Playing for 30 days in game?
That isn't a goal either. It is a "poor excuse" to limit the ability to onlythe people who have been playing for awhile (whou should already meet the other requirements).

Real Life time being a requirement for a game is silly. Having to do something in game (not just be in game) is content. Waiting 100 days, or being required to be in game for 30 days.

Content through waiting. The new definition of "Dragons".

[Pharcellus]

you two jokers are missing the point of this thread - go and squabble it out in the rants section...

Really? Strange.. I saw the topic title contained "Discussion", and thought I would discuss it. How stupid of me.

Discussions can't contain dissent? News to me.

Maybe it was supposed to be short "discussions". OK, let me try this:

The "Requirements" suck. They are not sufficient (yes, in my opinion, duh). They should be raised. Further attacks on me and my opinion serve to only lengthen the discussion. >I< don't have a problem with that, if you are good with it, Mr. Amerelium.

[Amerelium]

...I'm refering to your'discussion' with Refuse - if u can't see why most of that doesn't belong in this thread...well...

[Bi Tor]

Since they have asked for it I will throw in my two coppers. Much of what I'm about to say will inflame most who read it.

The ARoP should be very hard to complete irregardlesss of the difficulty to start it.

If the starting requirement are set high the dedicated long term players that have been here since Beta will love it, as it will justify their persiverence with a badly realized race/class. However the PL'ers, casual players and new players will look at the requirements and many will decide that they are too difficult, they will flame the forums about the stupid game that is too hard to play, then leave taking their money with them.

If the requirement are to low the players that have been here the longest, playing a dragon since they got here, will flame the developers saying that it is too easy and it will destory the game for them. The PL'ers will cackle with glee at their ability to 'WIN' yet another game. The casual and new players will look at the requirements and say, 'Wow, I can do that, it may take me a couple monthes, but it can be done!'

We have been led to believe, by players mostly, that the ARoP is really designed to test the dedication of the dragon players and to reward them for their dedication. To do this you must first define what a dedicated player is.
Is it:
The length of time since they first created a dragon character?
The number of hours that they have spent playing that dragon?
The level of their dragon?
The amount of money that they have paid to Tulga Games to play that dragon?
It is none of the above. I could pay to created a dragon character, quit the game and come back in a year or so and reactived my account. I could created or purchase a bot that logs me in to the game so that I can meet the time in-game requirement as soon as possible. I can 'Power Level' my dragon and be ready in days, if not hours. I would like to pay my money up front and buy the ARoP from Tulga Games, or worse all the rent paid upon the game before Jan. '05 was paid to AE and not to Tulga Games and therefore does NOT count.

I think the whole dedicated player idea is missing the point of ARoP. ARoP, as it has been desribed, is more like entering a university for advanced dragon studies. It is there to teach the dragons the skills they need to be true dragons. Also it is an oportunity for the developers to feed us as much lore as we are willing to read about. Lastly it is an opportunity to recieve a reward, for playing the game and for demonstrating that were are successfully able to complete the challanges (quests) that the Dev see fit to give us. As such, the 'Starting Requirments' are basically irrelevent, any one can enroll in the university, it is passing the classes that is the difficult part. However, if people feel that they need to pay in time or money to start something that will bleed them of both, I suggest that it be something that every one will be willing to pay.

Therefore I suggest that the 'Starting Requirements' for the ARoP be changed to: Is an Adult Dragon.
I would also suggest the following price for the ARoP be implaced. While any quest that is part of the ARoP is active the 'Recall' button/ability be turned off. They are dragons and can fly to any point in Istaria and they are adult dragons that have learned the wisdom of retreating from a superior foe, why would they ever need to 'recall'. This will force player to learn how to use their dragon character or they will die many times before they ever finish the quests. It will also slow down the rate at which the quests can be completed. Also, as a test of skill, have each dragon complete BOTH RoP's SOLO. This means; never grouping while doing the quests - or that quest is failed and must be restarted, to complete a quest the dragon must the only player involved in the combats - no bystanders attacking the targets or healing the dragon, and lastly all of the player created items for the quest are to be turned in at the end of the quest and must be tagged as made by the dragon questor - no help from others, dragon or bi-ped.

This suggestion for the 'Starting Requirements' for the 'Ancient Rite of Passage' will go a long way towards limiting it to the truely dedicated player wishing to learn what it means to play a dragon. It will also limit the number of Ancient dragons or wanna be's that will be purchased on E-bay.

The difficulty for the ARoP should not be in the starting of the rite but in the rite itself!

Bi`Tor - impatiently waiting for the dragons to be worth playing.

P.S. Also waiting for the explosions and the flames to start.

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img] then again 7 Days + 3 month = 99 days, perhaps that is what they are doing. 100 is pay for a fourth month.
And I have never seen the 1 free month. Unles syou mean this month, wihch is about 1/2 over.
Or do you mean buy the game (not free) and get 1 free month (so really not free either). So nitpicking, not sure how you get a "free" month. Unless someone buys you the game.

Nooo. When you create an account, you get your first month free. I know for a fact you still get a free month, as I activated my third account a month ago, and its first month was FREE! [:D] If I signed up for a 3 month subscription, my first billing would be now, and the next 90+ days would be IN ADDITION TO the previous 30.

And we are there/have been there for some time now.

Making it an arbitrary time to performa an action is really just saying "we can't come up with anything, so wait 100 days".

Seems like a good time to change the status quo to me. I can cope with a time requirement to wait. I can find plenty to do in the game in the meantime. Hell, it's coming up on a year since I maxed out adv/craft. If I can wait that long, I think just about anyone can.[:P]

I think your point (and mine) is that requirements need to be met, and they need to be doable. Time as a requirement is a cop out. "Sorry can't think up any good content so wait 100 days!" The game was over when they use time as a measure for in game "time". Now real life is a requirement for a game!

Yeah, I said I don't like the time requirement, but there is no other way in this game to represent "been around a while" to become "Ancient". There's NOTHING "Ancient" about a 100-day old toon. Lots of people don't like the 21-year old legal drinking age, either, but it is what we have that does the best it can in lieu of a better solution. People still commit unintentional suicide from alcohol poisoning from "Power Hours" anyway. However, you can't protect people from themselves; you just can only hope to give them just a little bit more time to gain enough wisdom and experience to avoid stupid ******** like that.

THey play when they are there, and they artificially age themselves when they are not.

Again, yes, "tough requirements" is a good thing.

"Time" as a "tough" requiremetn is lazyness. How does real life time, or even in game time, equate to "content" and tough requirements.

It is something that is a weak limitation due to the lack of a better idea.

OK, then let us wait for them to deliver the ARoP until they can code the game engine/system to come up with something better. That'll make everyone so much happier in the long term, I am sure.

Worked? For the most part, it has. If not, preserve your time investment by switching classes for free to something else until it is fixed, then go back and gorge yourself on the new fixes.
Make an alt.

Hehehe. Thanks! I knew you would say that. I'm the "know-it-all", remember? Alts DON'T PRESERVE TIME INVESTMENT since DRAGONS CANNOT MULTICLASS. kthxbye!

And I think that everyone would agreee thatan "in game" requirement to accomplish, that was thought out to prevent "power levelers" or some other such thing would be better then "100 days since creation", or "30 days in game". How is that a "cool worthwhile goal?" Yeah, uh. So you have to have made a character, and waited 100 days. yeah, cool worth while goal.

Or you made a character, finished everything (an example) in 60 days. Now you goal? Oh to wait 40 more days. Yeah, I can really see how that is a cool goal.

Oh wait, what do they do for those 40 days?

Dunno, what have I been doing for the last year? New quests, exploring new lands, events (when we had them), helping my guild, helping rebuild community projects, crafting, chatting. Hmm. Nothing much, I guess. *shrug*

Prove to the game world that you have the patience to wait until you are "old enough". Patience is a challenge, too! It's definitely a cool and worthwhile goal to me! [:D] I waited. You can too! Let's go build / kill something together while you wait. Woohoo![:)]

Ah, sorry others already did that earlier.

Then again, waiting 100 days is a goal?
Playing for 30 days in game?
That isn't a goal either. It is a "poor excuse" to limit the ability to onlythe people who have been playing for awhile (whou should already meet the other requirements).

Sure, it's a valid and worthwhile goal to me. Maybe not to you. Fine. Where's this part of the discussion getting us?

Real Life time being a requirement for a game is silly. Having to do something in game (not just be in game) is content. Waiting 100 days, or being required to be in game for 30 days.

Content through waiting. The new definition of "Dragons".

Yup, I love it, versus the alternatives, the worst of which is to table the ARoP until the game supports the perfect set of requirements. But, that would be an "arbitrary time requirement" as well. Hmmm. Such a quandry.

[Goriax]

Getting back to the point.

I think as requirements for starting the ARoP they're good enough. Ok, I'd have had a longer amount of time since creation and measured it from completion of the RoP but it isn't worth getting all wound up over. Nothing is exactly the way I'd have done it but this is good enough.

Some people seem to insist that each and every thing be EXACTLY their way or they'll get into some hissy fit; such people are impossible to satisfy and I'd suggest not loosing sleep over them. They're going to be upset no matter what so why bother?

I did have some problems with the RoP requirements but it doesn't look to me like they're being repeated. My biggest problem with the RoP requirements was that every dragon hadto do alot of crafting -- the lowest crafting level you could have was ~31 (depending on scales and such). That was a bolt from the blue for me since I don't like crafting and had been under the impression that if you didn't like crafting there would never be a reason to have to do it (I've softened on that attitude over the last year).

I also had a slight RP problem with the RoP over the fact that a biped healer was pretty much required even for Lunus, but I wasn't going to throw a tantrum over it. Hopefully that won't be necessary for the Lunus ARoP. Assuming the ARoP HAS seperate Lunus and Helian tracks, which I doubt. Seeing as how Drulkar was so disgusted by the Great Schism as to leave the Prime Material Plane, I'd expect there to NOT be seperate tracks. It wouldn't be consistent with the backstory.

Admittedly the ARoP is a huge blow to dragons primarily interested in crafting who don't care about adventuring (assuming there are such). I don't recall seeing objections about thatthough. If the benefits of ancientonly help your adventuringmaybe the lack of a crafting aspect is fine. Lairs will be the feature which will really benefit the crafters, not the ARoP.

In summary, the current requirements are good enough. Yes I'm easier to please then some people posting here and I make no apologies for that. Some people are just plain too hard to please.

[Pharcellus]

...I'm refering to your'discussion' with Refuse - if u can't see why most of that doesn't belong in this thread...well...

Well what? Still perfectly on the topic of "ARoP Starting Requirements". What is it I am not seeing? That you don't like it? So? It belongs here no less than anything anyone else has posted.

[Pharcellus]

Some people seem to insist that each and every thing be EXACTLY their way or they'll get into some hissy fit; such people are impossible to satisfy and I'd suggest not loosing sleep over them. They're going to be upset no matter what so why bother?

I've seen NO ONE who has said any such ******** thing. Not in any thread anywhere on the subject.

I am entitled to my opinion, there is a thread here to express and discuss it, and continuing to grossly generalize about others does nothing but PISS THEM OFF.

Talk about the subject, not about the posters, or it turns into a flamefest.

People aren't willing to even acknowledge or try to understand other peoples' points, so I don't expect the atmosphere to improve much.

Admittedly the ARoP is a huge blow to dragons primarily interested in crafting who don't care about adventuring (assuming there are such). I don't recall seeing objections about thatthough. If the benefits of ancientonly help your adventuringmaybe the lack of a crafting aspect is fine. Lairs will be the feature which will really benefit the crafters, not the ARoP.

There are a few craft-only Dragons which have posted their concerns about it in the past. In response, they have done what they figured they would have to do, and level adventuring, which they didn't care for.

Lairs will benefit all Dragons; ARoP will benefit Adventurers primarily. However, the crafting side has always been kinda a red-headed stepchild anyway, so no surprise there.

Yeah, I am harder to please than some people here, and I make no apologies for that, either. In general, I tend to think that when they please me, they have really gone a long ways for a lot of people in-between, too. May not always be that way, but I am not particular in what I am hard to please over. People should NEVER doubt that my main intention is to improve the game for more than just myself; I am not a selfish person, nor am I interested in glory-hounding over anything.

[evilkarl]

I have a hatch on order.. Level 10. With these curent requirements I could get it ready for arop in less than a week.

These requirements are pathetic and insulting. There is no hoard req? there is no time in game req? ou asked they players previously what they thought about the requirements then ignored them.

Ancient dragon status is not something that is meant to be easy to get nor is it meant to be something that is handed to everyone when the start plaing the game. Call it Elitism if you will but regardless of the requirements all current dragons will be able to reach it in time (ancient kind of implies a time factor).

I have to agree with Kumu "CLICK HERE TO BECOME AN ANCIENT"

You state these are the starting requirements..will you require something else to finish it othe than completing the arop quests?

[Vahrokh]

That's the problem Evilkarl: the game facilities are very limited, the quest engine too and accepts just few "inputs", so I fear ARoP will have to be toned down (losing it's attribute of being that "pinnacle for a dragon") and becoming just a slightly harder quest than the others.


I.e. some who don't know the engine mechanics want for it to check for things he cannot do (and being ARoP in advanced development the "engine" won't be "updated" just for that task), like checking against worth parameters, doing feats etc.
All it can do last time I checked was to look at a character age. Even a basic thing like the "played in game days" could not be implemented for the first RoP and afaik still now is nowhere to be seen in a quest. I doubt that feature will be implemented for just one quest if it's not here already.

The account creation time requirements in the end are the only proven "available" ways the game provides, like it or hate it. And with the available means it's pretty easy to see that:

If ancient means of old age => days since creation should be greather than a given number. Usually "old age" pairs with a big number.

Other ways of checking for players eligiblity are not officially available so the time requirement, even if not considered good, is the only way to insure a dragon is aged enough. It's the same as having a car driver license: the state like Horizons has no way to thoroughly know and check every feature of citizens so it decides to analyze statistics that affirm that in average people older than XX years are responsible of their actions in an high enough percentage => that becomes the set minimum age accepted for a driver's license.

In the end, to return to Evilkarl's post: ARoP will be too easy for the few old dragons left which know their beast to the fullest. Ifyou couldattend at their battles, you'd see that they will not have to sweat too much and you'll understand that you could achieve the same if you were a dragon. This because you Evilkarl are ancient for real, like them old dragons, and as veteran know all the little timings and tricks of the trade.

Meanwhile many newer dragons that did not have to learn how to survive vs mobs 100 with tier IV scales, tier IV spells with techs III, reduced armor, little hoard (because once having more than 2-3 Megs was hard) and possibly not using hoard based skills will find it "of the right difficulty". Their life could go on more complacent than the old farts so they are less overall able to survive a fight.

Want a little proof? Look at how many complained (expecially before the latest patch) about how hard was to refill hoard so they could notgold rage all the time and are doomed to die. While in realty so far the only mobs I noticed that really demand full hoard usage are the high damage / high health ones like Mhedon or Arboreon. The rest are sadly pretty easy prey, except some WA that you are better dispatch fast else they are linked with a stunner or out heal your regular damage.

And of course Tulga will have to make it easy and watered down so even those who already die against a peer level golem willstand a chance (else they'll get complains and players quitting to no end). Even if there are some others who actually kill 5 golems 100 at a time with no hoard usage at all...
Call it adapting ARoP to the "minimum common denominator" aka levelling down.

Last and not least, the ARoP mobs won't be able to "adapt" to the spent training points or the equipment. So they'll have to make it feasible by the worst dragon build with the shoddiest scales, else once again you'll see flamefests about "the dragons who are poor and at level 100 use slate scales cannot do ARoP WAAAA", "Tulga listens only to the rich elitists who want mobs tailored for tier V scales" WAAA and so on and on forever.

So, while I hope that ARoP will be a truly epic quest in the sense of an hard trial, I fear it'll be a push over. With many screaming bloody murder anyway and to make it easier.
Like making dragons game easier and easier as time passes has already done in so many departments. Take as last example the disappointment at having worked HARD to raise hoard to full notwistanding having job, house etc. while now you can get 120k hoard in an hour. Or alternatively loads of cheapo explosive hoard. "Working around anything challenging" is the beloved mantra. And yes, it's an actualchallenge to endure enough to raise an hoard "the old way" and still have a life.

[Fireclaw]

Now that hoard drops have been significantly increased, I see no reason why hoard should not be a requirement for ARoP.

[Fireclaw]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:In a word... blah.

Now, for the REAL question. Some of those "quests" are new quests for the same old abilities. Will the old quests for the old abilities still count? IE, I didn't kill Tashka Lusa for Primal Mastery VII, but something else instead.

Quests completed is not a bad idea, but there should have been some more meaty requirements. I just hope the ARoP is really hard, like it has been touted to be. If people breeze through it, it will be a major disappointment.

Update: checked my quests.. looks like the quests just had their names changed, as I apparently killed Tashka Lusa to get Primal Mastery VII, even though I killed something else. Oh well.




I'm pretty sure your quest log should reflect the new quests and not the old even if you did them before the change


[And completing Expert tasks and other currently available tasks that cap at IV to VII]

what is meant by this? I don't know if it is just asking for adv quests or adv and crafting + the dragon adv task you would get dragon's edge from.

Having tested on Blight shard after the character transfer:
1. You need to have all adventurer quests completed to start. However, it doesn't matter if you did the new or old version of those quests. I completed them all in their original incarnations and had no difficulty starting ARoP.

2. I believe only adventurer quests are required. If you check the publicized list of ARoP requiremensts for the official website, it actually lists out each quest you need completed. Crafter quests are not among the list so they appear unnecessary. (note that I could not confirm this on Blight shard since I already had all crafter quests completed).