Observations on were wolves

[Kwinn]

BTW, fighting the werewolves reminds me for fighting undead T5 caster types. The more ya jerk in yer direction, the more you can expect to be visited by stuns and mezzes. Granted the T5 seem uncoordinated and have longer recycle times so 6-8 at a time is doable with care and a sound plan.

The werewolves act like they are better coordinated and their recycle seems partically non-existant. Energy Ward and Energy Resist seemed to help some though. Tried two without the ward/resist and was able to kill em but, it took a while. With ward/resist and fighting 2 I was never stunned more than a cpla seconds and was unstunned long enough to get a few spells off before next stun hit. Fighting 4 with ward/resist was far harder, stayed stunned longer and therefore had less time between stuns to cast.8 was suicide, although they knew I was there, I got off a couple of bombs before hitting the deck. Went back and just for fun and tried 12...can you say permastun? Their damage per hit was so low that it took a while to die. Had a nice conversation while waiting to hit the deck though so it wasn't a complete waste of time

Kwinn

[AA0]

One funny thing is that devs have clearly stated to us that evasion is fine, and isn't unbalanced, but just about every player can see it very very broken. The whole combat system is broken and hacked to little bits in an attempt to stop power levellings and farmers.
The percentage based evasion penalities may work based on armour type, but I feel a class evasion cap would probably be the best solution. Give classes that use evasion as a type of defense proper evasion stats, and no real limits, while the tanks, and other low evasion classes be capped at a reasonable limit.
It is far past the time that evasion remain such a useless and screwed up stat.

[Vahrokh]

study the stats for techs and scales to determine what works, what doesnt, what enhances etc. You can bet most multiclassed biped spent considerable time determining what techs to put where, what tactics to use when.

Well, with my alt I did place targetted techs to improve single points of weakness, but with me I cannot. 10 slots are a severe limitation to freedom. Take away one for the usual vengeance scale and that you are more or less forced to always use only armor scales (even after the AC improvement there is still no room for fancy advanced combos).

Anyway this is the aspect of Hz that made me go adventure in WoW.

In Hz the mobs are basically dumb, stupid, AI-less. To cope with that they are given extra powerful specials and powers and recycles, mezzess, debuffs. Imho a broken fixto a broken thing does not make a good thing.

Since the fight to me is not fair I play where I feel I am against a peer level and fair opponent.

[refuse]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Korial wrote:[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Kumu Honua wrote:Yup.

Stuns are the only thing that can kill MMC's, so you can bet that everything added will be doing that. Welcome to mudflation caused by rampant and unchecked multiclassing.


Unfortunately for TG, stuns turn the target into a spectator. Last time I checked, mobs don't pay subscriptions, and don't get bored of spectating a combat whilst wondering when they will get a chance to do anything.

I'm starting to get really... tired... of the design decisions being made recently. Not to mention the rampant multiclassing-hate...


*shrug* welcome to our world. We've BEEN tired of it (multiclassing and its effects on game balance) for a long time. Personally, I think the island is great. Time to put the fear back into the game. Uberquilts don't like it. Wah, too ******** bad.

Yes, lets not discuss what is broken, lets bring it back to Dragon vs biped.

[Tryagain]

its basic game balance 101.

In every MMO out there that has a monk class the following is true. its also true in just about every fictional piece of writing on a Monk type fighter and with Martial artists in the real world...

You can't dodge didly squat in heavy armor.

With that FACT in mind Monks have always been restricted to cloth and light leather type armors. THis sacrifice is rewarded with HIGH evasion and dodge skills. It makes no sense for someone to take monk to 100 to get evasion and then switch back to a metal armor wearing class and get the same benefits as a monk wearing cloth armor. In fact it is stupid and why there has not been an evasion cap BASED ON ARMOR ( not class) is totally beyond me.

Fine take monk to 100 but if you switch back to a class that wears metal armor you SHOULD EXPECT to take a hit in your max evasion skills. Doing this simple thing could allow the devs to stop ubering up mobs to deal with plate wearing classes with 1000 plus evasion. Therefore the monks would still then get the bonus to evasion they SHOULD have. Thats what they sacrificed a weapon and heavy armor for.

[AA0]

While evasion caps per armour type is fine if you really don't look at thing closely, it doesn't work when you get down to some details.

The whole combat system, mechanics and equations need an overhaul.

Places it won't work:
A scout needs evasion if they can not parry or use a shield, nor do a significant amount of damage with a 2 handed weapon. A scout has 2 defenses, range and evasion, and with the way mobs move now (with most having a starter ranged attack) range is a very small defense. Their armour is subpar for virtually melee combat and low damage output. Limiting what evasion they have would harm them even farther.

IMO, a caster should not be able to use a high evasion while they are concentating on casting a spell, even if in cloth armour.

Keeping an armour based evasion penalty would just keep the same uber multiclassed people running around, everyone would still be able to do it all. We really need a purpose and refinement for the classes in the game.

[evilkarl]

Wow did this get derailed or what.

The original intention of the post was to point out observasions and possible design flaws with the new werewolves as well as make mention once again of mobs trampling evasion (and weapon skill for that matter 1500+ unarmed barely a parry).

If you want to start Yet another multiclassing is over powered whine please do it in your own thread rather than hijacking a valid one

[Tryagain]

Wow did this get derailed or what.

The original intention of the post was to point out observasions and possible design flaws with the new werewolves as well as make mention once again of mobs trampling evasion (and weapon skill for that matter 1500+ unarmed barely a parry).

If you want to start Yet another multiclassing is over powered whine please do it in your own thread rather than hijacking a valid one

They go hand in Hand.

The WW are as they are because tulga wanted to make one place in istaria a real challenge. They also had to do it quickly as well. if they dumb down the WW's and reduce their stuns the high rated powerhouses of the game will simply walk right through them. So they must fix other issues first before resorting to the standard lets either uber up a mob or dumb them down. For if your combat and class system is balanced you never have to touch mobs at all.

[evilkarl]

The two don't go hand in hand.

If the mobs were balanced they would be balanced against level 70 player.

If the mobs were balanced they couldn't hit someone with 1300 evasion.

I assure you T6 WA and een T5 wa pose a challenge to even multiclassed players

[Vlisson]

i dont think that evasion is broken

only some type of monsters have 1500+ to hit skill :(

if new mobs enters the game then 2 things can happen

a) they are too weak and all farm then
b) they have powers like a demi god and they arent interesting anymore

[Pharcellus]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:
*shrug* welcome to our world. We've BEEN tired of it (multiclassing and its effects on game balance) for a long time. Personally, I think the island is great. Time to put the fear back into the game. Uberquilts don't like it. Wah, too ******** bad.


That's funny, I thought my post was mainly about stuns, with only a passing comment about MC-Hate. Or do you like spectating an automated process with no user input?

If it was ONLY about stuns, you should have not ADDED the stupid jab about "MC-hate". You said it, I responded to it. If you didn't wanna talk about it, don't bring it up. What part of that is SO HARD to understand? [8-)]

[Pharcellus]

I have to agree with ya Korial, it seems some dragons want to take every thread and twist it into a rant about their pitiful state and take a few shots at the multiclassed bipeds.

I wasn't the one who brought up the "Multiclass hate" garbage, so lay off.

Welcome to their world? How about join ours? Learn how to play your dragon, study the stats for techs and scales to determine what works, what doesnt, what enhances etc. You can bet most multiclassed biped spent considerable time determining what techs to put where, what tactics to use when.

I think I know how to play my Dragon better than ANY ONE OF YOU that "claim" to know how to play your uberquilt. >I< don't have a problem with the werewolves, outside of knowing why they are so tough. What is wrong with you all?

I know more thana few dragon players with very powerful dragons, while not quite on par with a multiclassed biped, they still hold their own within their limits. And bipeds have limits too.

So? Where did I claim otherwise?

Large size, a billion hoard points and the ability to fly does not make one a God. Get of yer hobby horses, spend so time figuring out what you can do to improve yer dragon and quit expecting it to be easy. Building and playing a multiclassed biped may seem easy, in places it is, other places it most definitely is NOT. Why should dragons be any different?

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. My Dragon main is tricked out to the max in most ways. The only thing he doesn't have is the latest teched heals (which we're gypped with anyway) and 10 more sets of adventuring scales to deal with every conceivable foe. He has troubles with the werewolves, too. Moreso than your average uberquilt. However, if there's going to be a challenge for the UQs out there, they have no choice but to make super-charged mobs, as has been predicted.

Uberquilts are easy-peasy. I'm building one now. Started off as a Pure Healer / Confectioner, but since being true to your class is meaningless in this stupid game system, I'm now in the "if ya can't beat em, join em" club.

As I said before, if people don't want threads derailed, then don't post inflammatory bullshit in your messages that others will latch onto.

[Vlisson]

hehe Pharcellus you draw the attention to the weak dragons which cant multiclass so i see you "guilty" to be a MC-Hater

im a MC-Hater too but this is not the topic of this thread

i dont know who knows the old satyr mobs, they have been very strong too

the lvl dont show their real power (rating) like the old alco golems, but it had been corrected and i think the same will happen to this werwolfes

[Pharcellus]

The two don't go hand in hand.

If the mobs were balanced they would be balanced against level 70 player.

If the mobs were balanced they couldn't hit someone with 1300 evasion.

I assure you T6 WA and een T5 wa pose a challenge to even multiclassed players

No, because it doesn't work that way.

Since when has rating EVER been a meaningful indicator of mob difficulty? Answer: Never.

They simply are not going to put in common 140-200+ level mobs in to "balance" out UQs. Most mobs are going to be single-shooled, and in the same level range as the game engine currently supports for players, so they have to "beef them up" to provide a challenge, since being single-schooled is a disadvantage.

Personally, I think the werewolves are just fine as they are. If you want balance, you're playing the wrong game. Try gin rummy or euchre.

[evilkarl]

Hmm perhaps I wasn't specific enough


Evasion does very little to protect one.

And please before you start "WAA i'm a fat dragon and I can't evade" stop. You have far more armour and HP than most who would rely on evasion.

/END

[PJ]

On the evasion issue:

Personally I feel the effects of High Armor on dps reduction should be lowered, but the effects of evasion should be raised such that for maxed out bipeds there is no change, but classes wearing light armor get a dps reduction due to the increased effects of evasion.

[Silvanas_starlight]

Went to WWI last night, died twice but it was fun!
I liked how challenging they are. Only thing I found wrong was, as PJ mentioned, their use of several tiers of ripclaw, one used I,II,III on me, and of course the lovely showing alive when they are dead bug, but that is on most monsters.
I like the werewolves, regardless of dps :P

[Senkeleron Fell]

My monk char has no problem seeing that evasion works quite well. What people don't understand is that it only works on the mob you are attacking. Any adds are not hampered by your evasion at all. So I will be fighting one golem and it misses continuously. Second golem arrives and beats the crap out of me if I'm not careful. Maybe there should be a monk ability chain that allows your evasion to work against all attacks for a short amount of time.

[Pharcellus]

Hmm perhaps I wasn't specific enough


Evasion does very little to protect one.

And please before you start "WAA i'm a fat dragon and I can't evade" stop. You have far more armour and HP than most who would rely on evasion.

/END

Don't know who you are talking to; I don't have a problem with crappy evasion. In fact, AS YOU ******** WELL KNOW, I campaigned FOR Dragons to have crappy evasion, and more armor. Well, we have crappy evasion, and now more armor. I hope to get more once we hit Ancient status, too. I'm happy for that, at least.

I'm all for game systems that make sense, but I am on Tulga's side with this one. "You want to multiclass to oblivion? You don't want anything nerfed, and everything buffed? OK, here ya go; just what you have been asking for. We know we aren't going to make all of you happy, so don't expect us to."

You can't have your cake and eat it, too; despite any fervent desire to the contrary.

[PJ]

My monk char has no problem seeing that evasion works quite well. What people don't understand is that it only works on the mob you are attacking. Any adds are not hampered by your evasion at all. So I will be fighting one golem and it misses continuously. Second golem arrives and beats the crap out of me if I'm not careful. Maybe there should be a monk ability chain that allows your evasion to work against all attacks for a short amount of time.

Now see here's where you're wrong. Evasion and Magic Evasion work against all mobs. Dodge, Block and Parry work only against the engaged mob.