ToA watching Horizons??

[Pero Salmon]

As alot of people might know about ToA is going to be the next MMOG out in the market that will have playable dragons and other pretty cool playable races.

Right now, it have been nearly five years for ToA development. They still very hush hush on their development, including very limited screenshots. Also they have almost no plans yet on when they will do any kind of beta testing.

Is it possible the people who are working on ToA is watching Horizons especially on the dragon? Since the dragon havent never been done before in any MMOG game before, they might want to see how someone else is doing their dragon then see on proving or prevent any mistakes among with the dragon. The developers of ToA might actually starting breaking out of the shell once the dragons AROP is finished.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Sorry, I've no idea what ToA stands for. hehe So not a game I've heard of.

[Pero Salmon]

It means Trials of Ascension. I dont think could post a link here, but you could use a search engine and you could look at the website.

[Cobal]

Altough I am interested in the game I am slightly put of by several features, namely;

-Permanent death, die to often and its reroll time.

-all out free for all pvp. combined with the death system that seems gankers heaven (will attract the type that considers themself to be "hardcore").

-no crossworld communication, no tells, no guild chat, no nothing. there is only proximity chat.

-no social life for dragons and gryphons, I understand they can only group with their own race. Off all features I dont like this one actually makes the most sense but will still prevent me from playing with RL friends who have no intention of playing a dragon.

[Khoal]

As far as I'm concerned, ToA is vaporware.

The concepts sound nice, but I don't think they'll pan out.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

its not taken five years because they are watching HOrizons.

Their Dragon is NOTHING like Horizons dragon (ok maybe body wise it is...heh).

Its taken five years because they are a small, niche, company under their own funding. They are't backed by SOE or MS or even ATARI! :)

IF they are looking at Horizons dragons its because they want to know what they aren't doing, not what they are.

Its like apples and oranges - nothing in the lore much less the nature of that game is really comparable to how Horizons and Horizon Dragons work.

[Pero Salmon]

Having game developers play someone elses game isnt an old concept. It happens all the time. Even theCEO of SOE played WoW and he even likes the game. They often borrow from the success of the game they play. The developers from EQ2 haveadded a ton of solo monsters for soloers to solo, something that WoW have been doing since they released their game.

There is no doubt, the game developers in ToA know that having a playable dragon will aid them in attracting alots of players. Since that, they want to make the race perfect as possible even if better then Horizons dragons.

MMOGs dont have to have lore to be a big success. Its the quality of the game that attracts players, such ashaving good and lots of content.

[Nanain]

IMHO anyMMORPG that attaches too many limits to their gameplay is shooting themselves in the foot. Left SWG due to silly skill limits, same with WoW & EQ2 actually. The more freedom one has to play around with, blah blah...ramble...er..anyway u get the point.

(it's 6am, maintenance etc, cant think :p)

[Jaraiden]

ToA will have its own style of dragons based on game lore and game mechanics. Good design for immersion.

Hz has its own style of dragons based on game loreand game mechanics. Design of convenience.

I'm sure TulgAE and SP are watching each other.

[Ivy]

it would be interesting to try, even though it has limitations. Who knows, in the end its what makes it interesting ?

What is a greater problem in my eyes is that you cannot trust on it ever ever going beta or even gold when its been crawling in the dark like that for 5 years [:S]

[Illi]

Permanent death???? They're out of their MINDS! Yeah, I see millions of people signing right up for that.....

I'll be ignoring that game....

[Varangaard]

I agree with above, and Cobal's comment back from August. Permadeath and unlimited PvP is an open invitation to griefers. Expect to see certain types levelling like mad so they can get back to newbie areas and lay waste to people, in hopes of inflicting permanent deaths.

[Pharcellus]

-no crossworld communication, no tells, no guild chat, no nothing. there is only proximity chat.

Not only that, but if you TRY to use IRC, IM, whatever, the game client will REFUSE to run, by design. The game client also will refuse to minimize. So, basically, it is going to spy on your computer and refuse to function on most peoples' systems because they have MSN, AIM, ICQ, Trillian, IRC, etc running in the background. Like they are really going to be able to identify every chat program in existence.

Yeah, I can really see where they will be getting LOTS of customers from that "feature". What's next? Require a modem connection on your voice line to prevent people from coordinating via telephone?

Yes, it is less immersive to have an extensive chat system, but it really isn't that hard to implement one that is immersive, and at least functional for long-range communication so that groups can get coordinated.

It is a ******** sight wiser to provide for the needs of players properly than going to ridiculous and futile lengths to "disable" them.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

there are no levels

there are no newbie areas

there is no way to look at someone and know what their skills are, or even their name and class..

next complaint?

And no, its not a matter of knowing what runs on your computer they aren't doing spyware (ala WOW I hear lately....that's stopping people from playing there can't you see..;)). All they are talking of doing is making it so that if you switch to another Program while playign TOA, TOA Shuts down. Its that simple.

Do I like everything? no not at all. But I at least know enough about the game to know what could very well work, and what I don't think will work (wether I like it or not) - and what I don't like, but know does make sense.

So please, can we stop with the assumptions about the game that most of you obviously know nothing about. Stop bashing something you haven't even read the FAQ on.

(not speaking of anyone in particular, but as I keep having corrections for misassumptions, obviously people aren't paying attention)

Is it for everyone no? Do the devs apologize for that or do CEO Double speak making it sound like its for everyone? No never have. They outfront and upfront say "this game isnt' for everyone, and we like it that way." :)

At least they admit it. And say straight up "We're making a small niche game...not WOW, not EQII..." They aren't trying to make everyone happy...unlike what other gamers complain other companies attempt to do :).

[Goriax]

They put in the limiting of communication for a reason but it's so easy to get around. Just have another comp running.

Last I checked they were doing the OLD HZ approach to dragons (when HZ was PvP). Make them hard to play but make the old ones very powerful. Except ToA tossed in permadeath, limiting communication,and a few other nasty ideas too. While in theory I suppose it's a valid balancing technique, I think that in practice they've gone too far even if you ignore the permadeath.

Whereas the HZ dragons have their own highly developed society and lore, it looked to me like the ToA dragons are basically uncivilized barbarians by comparison.

Last I checked, they were saying only one out of 500 dragons created will make it to adult. Heh. People who want to play dragons don't seem to understand what that means. What it most likely means is that THEY will not make it. Most people have not beaten out 499 other people in ANYTHING yet now they think they're going to? Yea right.

Thosewho make it will be those who use every cheat and exploit there is. I predict that every single ancient dragon will have gotten there by cheating big time. The dragons who make it will have non-dragon friends, they will talk to each other and cheat constantly. They will hack the client mercelessly. If they have to run another comp to cheat they'll do it. If they have to have a second Internet dialup connection they'll get it. Most people won't go to those extremes but at least one in 500 will and those will be the ones who succeed. Most likely it'll be guilds; they'll want several dragons since they're eventually powerful and once they have those dragons they'll make the rest of the server miserable. They will find every cheat they can find and they will use it. Lets see someone say with a straight face there won't be any cheats.

Some of their limits will just put them into a neverending war with hackers -- a war they can't win since the hackers will have access to the comps involved and they won't. Heh, it's likely there will be far more people trying to hack their game then there will be devs trying to keep it from getting hacked. Most of the so-called anti-hack measures I saw were so niave I have serious doubts even THEY understand what they're getting into which makes it even less likely the game will turn out as they hope. The old thing about forcing the game to always run full screen and not be minimizeable was ALWAYS easy to get around and it's easier nowadays then when EQ tried it.

This whole game looks like the people who willreally love it and stick with it will be the ones who were banned from every other MMORPG out there. It's very doubtful it'll turn out the way the devs hope.

--------

Incidentally, all these games know about all the others. They steal ideas from each other all the time and I think theyfrequently have devs in each other's betas. In a way it's just doing their job. If you're building an MMORPG, you SHOULD be very familiar with the competition. You should belooking over what they've done and taken note atwhat they're good at, what they're bad at, and what you can learn from their game that you can apply to yours.

I'm sure that at some point someone involved with ToA made an HZ dragon. Likewise, I expect that people involved with WoW, EQ2, etc. all made HZ dragons too. Probably didn't stick around long but they would have at least checked out the dragons and the crafting.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Sorry, but "just have another comp running" is not "easy" just to get around the chat issue. In fact, I would have to shell out mega dollars to actually buy a second comp seeing as I only have the one. :/

Glad some *can* have a second or more comp, but please lets not assume that having a second comp is easy.

[Cobal]

Actually it is "easy" to have a second comp.
I assume you upgraded often over the years?
If thats the case by now you will probably have a box of elderly spare parts, probably enough to build a system just functional enough to browse the web and use chat clients.
You just need a mobo, some ram, a hardrive, a network card and a video card (the later two are possibly intergrated into a motherboard and if not, any old thing will do, an ATI rage 128 videocard goes for about 10 euros here and a network card could be even less, I assume its even cheaper in the US)
Use the cd drive of your main machine to load the OS and then stick your cd drive back into your main.
You could build the spare parts into a simple wooden box constructed of firewood, no need for an actual compter case.
One thing you probably wont have left over is a powersupply but you should be able to get one cheap.
Buy a Kvm switch (just a few euros, theyre even cheaper in the US)to connect both machines to one monitor and with a flick of a switch your chatting and planning with your mates.

This way you could have a junkyard machine for less then 50 dollars.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Actually, no Cobal. We haven't upgraded often over the year. You see, not all of us have that sort of cash to blow on upgrading. Some of us are on extremely tight budgets and are lucky to have the few luxuries that we do. Otherwise I wouldn't have outdated gear to begin with. :)

Nice try though.

[Illi]

LOL!!! "A small niche game...." Yeah....that'll be a REAL small niche. The ideas they've got going are so laughable, it's pathetic. After 8+ years of gaming, this is the most ridiculous game idea I've seen TO DATE. I checked out their site, that game will last all of.....12 minutes.

"Just have two comps running....." Not all of us are made of money.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

They put in the limiting of communication for a reason but it's so easy to get around. Just have another comp running.

Pretty much - but no I dont think its simple. IT would be out of reach for me.

On top of that, if they catch you acting your charcter in a way that would imply you're using that work around, they will suspend. (i.e. if you were way off somewhere and got ganked, and then all your guildmates 50 miles away dropped what they wer doing and started heading your way - not possible to do in game - workaround - kick).

At least so they have said.

Whereas the HZ dragons have their own highly developed society and lore, it looked to me like the ToA dragons are basically uncivilized barbarians by comparison.

No actually, TOA has more lore right now than HZ (heck I'd argue more than several other live MMOs) have in their entire history. Dragons are one of the more "unknown" races right now, but as they put out new lore bits almost weekly - I'm sure that won't stay so for long.

But you could play the uncivilized barbarian dragon if you wanted to :).

Thosewho make it will be those who use every cheat and exploit there is. I predict that every single ancient dragon will have gotten there by cheating big time. The dragons who make it will have non-dragon friends, they will talk to each other and cheat constantly. They will hack the client mercelessly. If they have to run another comp to cheat they'll do it. If they have to have a second Internet dialup connection they'll get it. Most people won't go to those extremes but at least one in 500 will and those will be the ones who succeed. Most likely it'll be guilds; they'll want several dragons since they're eventually powerful and once they have those dragons they'll make the rest of the server miserable. They will find every cheat they can find and they will use it. Lets see someone say with a straight face there won't be any cheats.

Well here is what they have in store to HINDER what exactly you said.

No now, they can't hinder all possible cheats and exploits until they are found, but talking your other points:

Dragons can't really have nondragon friends and be powerful - we stop aging around non-dragons for one, therefore you'd never become adult. Secondly, there will be other (formerly there was a disease that lowered your skill gain in the precense of others, they have removed it for more logical limitations) ways that will garentee that any dragon spending a lot of time around bipeds will be severly hamepred in growth and power. This is their stated plan.

It won't matter if you have a second dialup in your house - only one character per shard - PERIOD. You can't have an alt on a shard to help you out - its either a 2nd account you pay for (now that would be possible), or a friend you trust. But no bouncing stuff from characte rto character back and forth across a single account. One character per shard - four shards going live. That's it.

Any dragon that makes the rest of the server miserbble is going to have a very short life. Any guild that farms dragons, legally or not, will be actively hunted down and slaughtered until they are PD. Any dragon farmed will, as it stands right now, be automatically weaker than any "non farmed" (assuming it will even be possible) dragon, Course you wont know that until you try and fight them....;)

Not even couting the fact that 99.9% of the shard is going to be outright gunning for the death of every hatchling they even see coming into their vision range...with the idea that "Well if I leave it alone to get to adult, it could single talonly wipe out my entire settelment". The built in racial attitudes towards dragons is "Suffer not a Dragon to Live" In fact, there is a good size faction on the forums right now, of dragons who won't suffer DRAGONS to live who have been pampered and helped by bipeds. So if you decide to live that way you'll have bipeds, AND other dragons, gunning to kill you on sight (assuming they can identify who you are with no nameplates of course)

You are spawned randomly into a huge frickin mapless world. Sure, if you the dragon stay alive long enough for your friends to both 1-figure out where the heck you are and 2-run to you and live themselves - which could literally take days - then they might can help you out. Course if they are bipeds they are just going to sloiw, if not outright stop after a certain period of time, your development. Which would make the process moot.


I'm not saying it can't be hacked and cheated, all games can. Not saying noone wil make it - I know some will - and I knwo it will be hard as Hell (and I"m not saying *I* would make it). I am saying that the devs are very active in trying to take out any way for a dragon to easily "cheat" its way to adult by being fed by bipeds or a guild.

And they are fully supported by the majority of the very active forums, who really want Dragons to be rare, and powerful, and unhelpable. You shoudl have seen the griping when they took out the penalty of dragons just being around other DRAGONS. (though it isn't gone entirely for certain)