ToA watching Horizons??

[Varangaard]

I don't know, but I think I couldn't play a game where the devs are actively seeking to hinder my enjoyment. A few observations on the above passage.

It appears the ToA devs did read about Istarian dragons and liked what they saw. They've seemingly created a similar environment of dragon feeling of superiority and will ensure mutual hatred by fomenting witch hunt mentality against them. Enforced solitarity naturally makes them suited for not dragon lovers, but powergamers who have hours and hours to pour into grind, ensuring they are ahead of the pack and heighten their survival rate.

Further, it doesn't exactly work to make existing guilds feel welcome with no guild chat and sprkinling them randomly across the world when they start. Then again, ToA seems to be content to exist as a niche game.

[oluviel]

the major point of toa as a niche game is not dragons at all.

It's pvp/perma death and many more hard core elements.They arenot going to deviate from these hard core elements on any of their servers either.

progression as a dragon in toa will be very different that horizons. I'ts mostly based on aging and just staying alive for the 1-3 year(real time) it takes to reach that point. And until you reach it you'r pretty weak and being hunted by both pcs and npcs for your.....ummm...natural components.

Unless they tone down their image of the game much like horizons did due to development costs and time toa is just going to be totally different than horizons. Especially their dragons.

theiridea in this area is thatbasicallyif you can reach a point of power you deserve to be overpowered, and you deserve to do what you want with it, but expect consequences

[imported_Frith-Rae]

Exatly Olo...

And in the end, should any of us be putting down ANY game that is at least a little bit innovative from the EQ clones (that includes SWG, WoW, HZ, etc).

These small niche games, who aren't trying to appease everyone, who are working with smaller budgets, are the companies who are going to bring about change and variety in this genre..


And IMO, this genre seriously needs some...

So as far as I'm concerned, even if I had no interest whatsoever in this game, at least its trying to be a little bit different - and for no other reason, would have my support.

Because I"m so sick with the same-thing being released all the time, and the no-risk attitude of some of the companies. They know what has worked, they arent willing to alter it one iota, even if it might even make it more popular.

The genre needs games of change...or it will fade into mediocrity - where we'll have the choice of 20 games of the exact same thing - ultimately no choice at all.

Just my little alter-rambling on it. Its not about TOA in the long run to me, wether it has dragons or 436 other races. At least its trying something no other game is really trying. And actually its trying a few things no other game has really done justice to. Not just open PVP and PD, but the whole way the world is constructed and how players are forced to survive off each other - it could really pave the way for bigger and better things.

Just please god, something different...

[evilkarl]

I been wanting to play a skill based mmorpg for some time so despite the open pvp (not a fan) I am gonna give it a shot. The idea of killing dragons is appealing to me thats mainly because of the hz players who play dragons of which I have noticed a few over on the ToA forums heh.

I also like the idea of being able to play as a gargoyle so I'll check it out

[Bori Grimbattle]

<peers at Zodias>

Ayup! Not much to be changin' to have ya look like one of them gargoyle beasties.....! [:D]

<scurries for the door laughing>

I am taking a hard look at Vanguard....hopefully I can get into the Beta.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

I been wanting to play a skill based mmorpg for some time so despite the open pvp (not a fan) I am gonna give it a shot. The idea of killing dragons is appealing to me thats mainly because of the hz players who play dragons of which I have noticed a few over on the ToA forums heh.

I also like the idea of being able to play as a gargoyle so I'll check it out

oh aye they got a few races I'm also interested in checking out, since I"ll probably be playing...

Definitely a Gargoyle (far second favorite, but it is second, to my first love of dragons), I'm also interested in Centaurs (just always liked them) and gryphons are a pretty cool fantasy race for me as well.

That's one thing, their racial choices for the most part really are unique - and even their "cat" race or "lizard" race isn't just a biped anthroform. The Cats are four legged sphinx looking things, and the lizards dont look like ssliks.

And then you've also got snake and spider which are totally unique and have nothing really anthro about them :). (no biped spiders..rofl)

So yea, I am liking what htey are doing with the races period. I really hate the dwarf/human/elf/gnome standbys...ugg

[Vizharan]

Just read the thread for the first time...wow. Almost makes me think of a very, very hardcore version of Diablo II. Hardcore in Diablo II was a perma death, but not quite as many limitations.... Can't help but say wow. I'll definatly keep an eye on it, even though I wont play it. Can't help but be curious now.

[Velat]

i agree with Frith, ToA is not for everyone, but I will give it a try.
I just remember hearing about it, checking out the site, getting all excited. even with the perma death, weather that can hurt you, food that can poison you, NPC out to get you. that sounded neat and different.
so i get on the ToA forum and BOOM, everyone out to get you! they threatened, attacked, and totally discouraged me from wanting to enter the world.
"Cant wait to see you Velat! So I can kill you and steal your body parts!" <exagerated> Not good with perma deth!
Ok so i thought that was roleplaying a bit. but as time went on and the threads spread these people werent kidding. so much for making friends and joining groups to play a GAME together. about the only positive responses i ever got were from other dragons.
i just didnt know what to think about that. how am i going to enjoy my GAME when i will spending every logged on moment running for my life or trying to kill a rabbit so i can eat. because apparantly from birth we are no stronger than a rabbit.
but then someone told me how vast the world will be so it will be much easier to hide in. and although i dont want to spend alot of time hiding, i will have to progress my character as much as possible to be able to stand a chance. this means that if anyone wants to be able to survive when the game is released they better get into beta so they can build their character up.
its a love hate situation, but i WILL give it a TRY, no doubts there.

[Pharcellus]

Not interested for many of the reasons cited above, and some of the silly things the developers have said.

It will be a niche game that will draw a niche crowd, and not the kind of crowd I really want to "fall into".

[Pero Salmon]

I should point out by reading a few old posts about open pvp on this game and including permadeath. This isnt a for sure thing on what the devs are doing with ToA. Alot of developers in other gamesare actually making pvp limited since they know that they do attract griefers. They also know these griefers will cause a large turn over in player attendance. Developers willhave to understand thisand adjusttheir game so it could be successful. The game is still under development how the gameplay works will not beknown until at least a month when it is released. Pretty sure once it goes into beta testing alot of players will ask for this and that. One area that would be changed would be the pvp. Setting areas or zones with in the game that is for pvp only is probably what they will be going. Since alot of other games that are release now that have pvp do have the same feature.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

no sorry, the devs have stated several times that if they can't put the game they want into live - they will pull out and quit the process.

The game going live (if it makes it) among other things WILL Have entirely open PVP and WILL have Permadeath - they are building the entire game on these facts, so I'm pretty dang sure, these won't change.

Perhaps other aspects, but those two things won't be changing :)

[Pero Salmon]

We will see when open beta comes around. Im sure everyone there will complain about the permadeath system they have there. Once it goes live, be sure that there will be a high turn over rate because nobody wants to spend two months or longer then end up having to start over. Permadeath sounds great on paper, but realisticly its not going to fly with paying customers.

I know by reading from reviews from players who have played Lineage 2, which is another game that provides open pvp. If ToA become open pvp, they will be players who will protect their farm locations by ganking anyone who comes near it. Same thing for any locations for resources. No doubt the game will be filled with bots who will farm 24/7.

The devs in ToA have very tough problems on their hands before they want to make their "perfect" game. They might have actually have to give up the idea of permadeath and open pvp for their game to survive and bring lots of customers. If they dont, I doubt this game will last longer than six months after its release.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

did ya read at all what I said about how the PVP and PD system works..

Comparing it to LII is bullycrap - its nothign like that system.

Its nothing like any system that is live to date..

You can't reliably protect any "farm"locations, there are no "farm" locations, you can't even reliably gank anyoen with any assuridity.

And they've already said they have no interst in having the game survive if certain core ideas can't happen. They dont care about "lots of customers" actually, they know they'll bea small niche game *(like HZ or EVE)* and are perfectly happy with that. As I..just stated.

Like WISH - they will pull the plug if the core ideals of the game they want aren't viable. And those are certainly the core to the core ideals -t he entire gaming system is built upon it. FOr them to go to beta and throw that out, they'd have to redo the ENTIRE game - and start over.

Sorry but, its not going to happen that way.

It will either go live with the system of PD and PVP as it is (no levels, no identifiers on players, no way to tell if you can or cannot beat someone at all - you dont even have NAMETAGS! and a "wanted" bounty hunter system). Or it won't go live at all.

But you seriously can't compare to a single game on the market that has PVP - because they are implmenting it in an entirely new and original way that has literally never been experienced.

All bets are off. We just have to wait and see if it works. If it doesn't, well no game, and the genre can continue its setcourse for the sun and explode.

[Goriax]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Goriax wrote:

They put in the limiting of communication for a reason but it's so easy to get around. Just have another comp running.


Pretty much - but no I dont think its simple. IT would be out of reach for me.

That's the point. Many peoplewill playtheir dragons by the rules (at least for awhile). They will have a tough time of it and probably won't make it. Some can and will cheat. They'll have a much easier time of it and are much more likely to make it. The cheaters are going to stack the deck against people such as you.

And this is an easy cheat. MANY people can dredge up some crappy old comp which is still good enough to run IRC. More likely it would be Skype for the kinds of people who'd be doing the cheating -- why bother with typing to your buds you're not supposed to be communicating with when you can just talk?

if they catch you acting your charcter in a way that would imply you're using that work around, they will suspend. (i.e. if you were way off somewhere and got ganked, and then all your guildmates 50 miles away dropped what they wer doing and started heading your way - not possible to do in game - workaround - kick).

It's been my observation that if enforcement requires staff members be monitoring the game this closely, the result will be the rules won't be enforced. Look at the recently concluded (hopefully) epic messwith Ruina on the Order shard which you can see in the thread there. I'd think that if he ever tried that with a dev the whole episode would have been cut short right there.

Cheaters aren't dumb. If they think there's a reasonable chance they're being watched they'll make it really hard to tell what's going on. The result is the staff will end up suspending a lot of innocent people for every guilty party they catch.

TOA has more lore right now than HZ (heck I'd argue more than several other live MMOs) have in their entire history. Dragons are one of the more "unknown" races right now, but as they put out new lore bits almost weekly - I'm sure that won't stay so for long.

But you could play the uncivilized barbarian dragon if you wanted to [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img].

I'm mainly basing that observation on all the players who talk about what they'll do when (yea right) they become ancient. It usually revolves around killing other players and frequently around killing dragon hatchlings. Often especially dragon hatchlings. Any species which preys on it's own young is not very advanced in my opinion. Or admirable. Maybe they'll eventually make up some dragon lore, but either it'llbe at odds with what players are saying they're going to do, or it'll be pretty barbaric.

HZ dragons on the other hand are far more refined, and even went to some lengths to avoid open conflict (i.e. Lunus vs Helian and the founding of Chiconis). Whereas ToA dragons feed on their young, HZ dragons nurture their young. Look at all the NPC dragons who teach the young the skills they need and who helpthem along in their RoP and ARoP. I can identifywith and admire HZ dragons FAR more then I can ToA dragons.

Well here is what they have in store to HINDER what exactly you said.

No now, they can't hinder all possible cheats and exploits until they are found, but talking your other points:[

But that's the whole point! Hindering isn't going to work. It would work in other situations, but not when you're trying to FAIRLY eliminate 499 out of every 500 dragons. Lets be optimistic and pretend that 75% of people would play fair and not cheat (I think it'll be FAR lower after a couple months but lets just suppose). That means out of that initial group of 500 dragons (of which they want only ONE to make it) ONLY 125 will be cheating. Since nobody cheats except to get an advantage, those 125 will have an advantage over the non-cheaters. The one who makes it (assuming they're able to keep it to one)will be a cheater. If you play a dragon in that game, the only way to survive will be to cheat.

With permadeath and a very low success rate, they've pushed the stakes so high as toENCOURAGE people to dig out their old computer, to set up another account under a different name, etc. Normally doing that kind of stuff just speeds you on your way a bit. But when it means the difference between success and failure you can bet a lot more poeple will do it.

Dragons can't really have nondragon friends and be powerful - we stop aging around non-dragons for one, therefore you'd never become adult. Secondly, there will be other (formerly there was a disease that lowered your skill gain in the precense of others, they have removed it for more logical limitations) ways that will garentee that any dragon spending a lot of time around bipeds will be severly hamepred in growth and power. This is their stated plan.

Oh but they can. So you keep your distance from you buddies (who you're talking to constantly via IRC, TeamSpeak, Skype, or whatever on your other comp). No problem there. You take your dragon to some safe secluded hunting spot and your buddies just *happen* to be hunting not very far away (but far enough to not trigger any proximity based problems for the dragon), perhaps making occasionally /say comments along the lines of "lets find that dragon and kill it" for the sake of the ToA worldmasters (or whatever they're called). But for some odd reason that dragon manages to elude them (an odd reason encouraged by the fact that dragon and buddies are constantly coordinating their actions). However, they DO manage to find all sorts of other characters and kill THEM, thus *inadvertantly* making things much safer for their pet dragon.

It won't matter if you have a second dialup in your house - only one character per shard - PERIOD.

Umm that's one character per shard per account ASSUMING they're able to figure out both accounts are yours. And anyone who works at it can make it real hard for them to figure that out. Also, you can have buddies -- who don't even have to be in the same state or even the same country and most of these cheaters will be in uber guilds and have played together in many other MMORPGs. You might be able to manage a second account (although that may require a second IP address, but that's no biggie nowadays). Using other credit cards of course. I could, for example, open a second account under my wife's name with her credit card, give my business address, and buy a cheap second dialup line. MOST people wouldn't go to those lengths,but out of every 500, and if it meant eh difference between success and failure, many peoplewould.

its either a 2nd account you pay for (now that would be possible)

Many people have second accounts in HZ, when the only benefit is a second plot and 4 more characters. Imagine how many would in that game when it can mean the difference between success and failure. Ifthe devsdon't allow for multiple accounts they'renever going to make it.And, as I said, the cheaters won't make it easy for them.

Any dragon that makes the rest of the server miserbble is going to have a very short life. Any guild that farms dragons, legally or not, will be actively hunted down and slaughtered until they are PD.

obviously they'll have to be careful not to have too many people ganging up on them. But at this point we're talking about cheaters hurting other cheaters and I just find it hard to care who wins in such a situation.(ok, non-dragons might not be cheaters, but I would only play that game for the dragons).

But the ones who will give the server grief will be the uber guilds. The ToA equivalent of FoH. It won't be loners. Ok, so the dragons may not be OFFICIAL members of those guilds, but they'll all be in the sameSkype channel. They'll be buds from many previous games. How much they go about hurting everyone on the server is admittedly unknown (perhaps I was a bit hasty in that part), but it's pretty certain they'll have no compunction about cheating.

You are spawned randomly into a huge frickin mapless world. Sure, if you the dragon stay alive long enough for your friends to both 1-figure out where the heck you are and 2-run to you and live themselves - which could literally take days - then they might can help you out. Course if they are bipeds they are just going to sloiw, if not outright stop after a certain period of time, your development. Which would make the process moot.

Again,cheaters aren'tnot going to be dumb about this (perhaps the fundamental flaw in all of the devs' anti-cheat measures -- they think cheaters will be stupid). People will start drawing up maps the instant they're in the world (if beta uses the same world as release they'll start then -- I was navigating the EQ world for YEARS before SoE actually gave us maps and even then I vastly preferred the third party maps.) The dragon isn't created until several bipeds are up and running. Even if they have to make a few false starts (create dragon -- decide they can't meet up quickly enough -- destroy dragon, create a new dragon rinse and repeat until it clcks) it'll eventually happen. Anyone who isn't put off by a week long camp (and many in EQ were not) isn't going to let a little thing like that stop them.

You could drop me in any random spot in Norrath and I could usually figure my approximate location (certainly the zone, usually what part of the zone) within in less then a minute, usually within seconds. Perhaps the uber-guilds will have one particularly experienced member who will navigate the new dragons (i.e. log on with that account) to a meeting spot (er, an ALMOST meeting spot, never close enough to other guild members to trigger suspician);

I'm not saying it can't be hacked and cheated, all games can. Not saying noone wil make it - I know some will - and I knwo it will be hard as Hell (and I"m not saying *I* would make it).

As I've said, even if most players don't cheat, it's the ones who cheat who will probably make it. My personal opinion is you won't make it. Not even close. You're too nice and you don't think like a no good scummy cheater. You'd do things the hard way rather then cheat and when you're battling 1 in 500 odds, refusing to take advantage of any edge at all can spell the difference between success and failure. Personally, I hope you don't change (nice people who don't think like cheaters are too rare in this world) but, unfortunately, to succeed in that game as a dragonnice isn't going to cut it.

I am saying that the devs are very active in trying to take out any way for a dragon to easily "cheat" its way to adult by being fed by bipeds or a guild.

Likewise, I don't think their game will make it either. At least not like they're representing it now. Their so-called anti-cheat measures are just too easy to get around. It's probably not possible to write a game such that the one out of 500 who makes it didn't do it by cheating. The devs also appear to be far too naive and either don't have the mind of a cheater, or can't come up with effective ways to really curb them. It might work if the elimination rate were better then one in 500. If one in 10 made it, then there would be enough people who made it legally that cheaters would be in the minority. But with one in 500, and without a far better way of curbing cheating then they've displayed, I just don't see it happening.

---------------

You have mentioned in other posts that they have said that if the game doesn't turn out like they want, that they'll kill it. Like was done with Wish. We'll see. Unlike Wish, they won't know until it's been released a few months. At least Wish could test their issues in beta. With ToA, because it involves player cheating, it won't become obvious until after release. The cheaters will be very careful to NOT cheat during beta, although they'll definately be taking notes on ways to cheat to be used after release. So, the question is, after spending millions of dollars and after they have a few thousand players, will they have the integrity to kill it? Or would the investors just insist on getting new developers?

[Talitha]

I've been lurking in ToA's forums now and then, checking things out. Interesting game concept, it seems, and I'm not opposed to giving it a spin. I'm no active PvPer, but open PvP is not unfeasible in a world with consequences. "You can do it, but it'll cost you." (And I don't worry so much about griefing; in my MMORPG experience, I get "ganked" by mobs as often/more often than players, regardless of PvE/PvP.)

I'd love to try a dragon there, and see how that goes. Other races hold an appeal for me too, so it's not solely a matter of dragon preference. I'm worried to introduce myself in the forums there since there's a heavy anti-dragon sentiment as well as the inter-dragon politics. Though I suspect the forum board of ToA is much worse than the actual in-game community will/might be, especially since there is no open PvP on the boards. [:P] No loss of life counters, and nobody gets eaten for being rude.

Bit of elitism going on there too, it seems, especially among certain Dragon parties (not just the "We Will Hunt You Down!!" bipeds). I caught a definite air of "If you don't play your dragonmy way, you're just a waste of airspace so I'll hunt you down and eat you."[:S] If the rest of the game is as open as the PvP is, nobody's going to know the "right" or "wrong" way to play, dragon or otherwise....

(My personal opinion is that those outspoken bad-tempered, town-razing,hatchling-eating dragons will in turn be eaten by me and my three or four pals who've minded our own business and grown up. [;)])

So despite all that, I'm going to withhold final judgement until I see more of this game than hearsay and forum-rants. Especially whenmost of those "I Gonna Eatchu!" rants seem like a lot of testosterone and smoke-blowing [:S] (no offense to those who've gone over there and posted like rational, civilized beings). As long as I'm free in the gameworld to play "my way" (consequences included! [:)]) I'll feel good about evenutally getting into the game. As long as I'm having fun, I don't mind the bumps in the road.

Not that I would ever run off and abandon Istaria! [:D] Heck no! HZ would be a great way for some dragons to keep in touch...hm.....

^_^ More of my 2 coppers. Good hunting, y'all!
~Talitha


PS: If Mister You-Must-Be-This-Kind-Of-Dragon-To-Ride wants to eat me for lending the occasional helping claw to a younger hatchie or neglecting to slaughter a passing biped, he's welcome to try to find me somewhere in that vast gameworld. If he can. [:P] And then he has to deal with me, my sis, and all our friends. Hehe.....

All in good fun! [:D]