The 'Focus' group

[Galem]

I think it is something that is being avoided when asked in other threads, so I will start a thread just for this.

I want to know who the people are who speak for all the players.

DAoC has Team Leads, all very public, all known.

WoW has Community Coordinators, also public.

SoE has similar systems in place.

Horizon's has a supposed 'Focus' group. I know nothing of this group or who is on it. Since these people are our 'voice' to the devs and their 'voice' carries more weight than us posters, I think it's fair to know who they are.

If you are on this 'Focus' group, then please speak up and tell us who you are. If you can't do that, then I have no faith in your ability to speak for the playerbase.

[Blue Hasia]

the devs listen to any one who can speak in a friendly, mature way. just join IRC And find out for yourself.

[Galem]

Thank you, but that's not an answer. There is a 'Focus' group according to a dev post. I'd like to know who it consists of and its function.

I know all about IRC, thanks. I prefer using the Official Boards for my communication since I don't have time to waste hours on IRC waiting for a response. (I've been there, and yes, between the chatter, you might get lucky and get an answer to a question, but you have to spend a long time to get any response at all.)

[Blue Hasia]

I prefer using the Official Boards for my communication since I don't have time to waste hours on IRC waiting for a response. (I've been there, and yes, between the chatter, you might get lucky and get an answer to a question, but you have to spend a long time to get any response at all.)

I dont know about you but 80% of the time when i go in IRC if i have a question for a dev they answer my question I have right away. if not just got to wait till a dev becomes present in IRC which is never to long.

[Galem]

Okay, I am not going to post my feelings on IRC. THis thread is not about IRC, so please don't make it about IRC.

I am asking about the 'Focus' group. Talking of IRC as being a means of communication is derailing the thread, so please stick with the actual topic.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

What focus group?

[Death-knell]

<bangs head on wall>

oops, just woke someone up.

The supposed focus group they keep talking about.

[Galem]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/user_IsOffline.gif[/img] Smeglor

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/rankicons/rankTop150.gif[/img]
Joined on 10-15-2004
Posts 153 [img]/Web/Utility/1x1.gif[/img]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/roleicons/11.gif[/img] Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/newpost.gif[/img] [img]/Web/Themes/default/images/quote.gif[/img] [img]/Web/Themes/default/images/spacer.gif[/img] This seems like a perfect opportunity for me to introduce an upcoming change.

Through discussions in the focus groups and IRC,




(Bolding is mine)

From the crafting change thread.

[Galem]

Also notice it says 'AND' IRC which puts it as a seperate entity from the IRC.

[oluviel]

When your asking somone for something it's best to do it without an attitude. Either in irc speaking to a dev or here looking for the focus group. You are much more likely to get a response if you are actually kind to those you are requesting something from.
In this case a few horizons players in a focus group. Of which we have no real idea who or what they realy do and where they play.

You saidthat you are either to answer me or i have no faith in you. Thisis just not a proper way to ask somone to willingly share information that they can just as easily keep to themselves.

These are notmen and women of congress,maybe it's best they remain unknown otherwise they are treated differently and realy don't know what the community wants.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

These are notmen and women of congress,maybe it's best they remain unknown otherwise they are treated differently and realy don't know what the community wants.

They might have signed NDA's too.

[Death-knell]

When your asking somone for something it's best to do it without an attitude. Either in irc speaking to a dev or here looking for the focus group. You are much more likely to get a response if you are actually kind to those you are requesting something from.
In this case a few horizons players in a focus group. Of which we have no real idea who or what they realy do and where they play.

You saidthat you are either to answer me or i have no faith in you. Thisis just not a proper way to ask somone to willingly share information that they can just as easily keep to themselves.

These are notmen and women of congress,maybe it's best they remain unknown otherwise they are treated differently and realy don't know what the community wants.

Well in his defense there are quite a few people who are getting fed up with this supposed "focus group" making very unpopular decisions. I know I wouldn't admit being in it, I'm not sure what they're focusing on. But it ain't fun [:P] they're focusing.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

Well in his defense there are quite a few people who are getting fed up with this supposed "focus group" making very unpopular decisions.

Seems most of the people with a problem don't really understand the changes at all.

[Deth]

My problem is in Smeglor post, no where does it say THE FORUMS where most of us get our infomation and post our thoughts. Some of us can not get on IRC due to work and such what about our option?

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

My problem is in Smeglor post, no where does it say THE FORUMS where most of us get our infomation and post our thoughts. Some of us can not get on IRC due to work and such what about our option?

Amon and David (David happens to be the CEO) both watch the suggestions forum religiously. If you read posts like David's "Wells and Sand Piles" or noticed that "dead mice now stack" is in the patch notes for blight you'll see this demonstrated. If you have a suggestion, and it's a good suggestion, post it in the suggestions thread, it will be read.

I'll mention that you do not get that level of interaction with developers in almost any other game. It's really saying something when someone like Amon has more forums posts than me.

[AA0]

Whoever is in the focus group is really none of your business. Are you mad that you aren't in it? Are you upset that your brillant insights haven't been recongized?

If you notice, the devs don't post too much. They keep quiet about things, calm and only post when necessary. I would take a guess they would choose members that are not irrational, and people that tend to think things through. Maybe look for those people.


My opinion on the focus group. I was very suspect when the mithril change was announced, the changes made no sense at all, but this group obviously knows more then just the forum lackies do. The changes work very well with the new crafting system and all of recent additions and fixes have really started to shape the game up.
They are doing a good job, and the recent changes seem to have most of the angles covered, creating fewer problems and exploits than in the past.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I don't think the focus group repesents classes or points of game play, rather I think they are sounding boards for developer ideas and discussions not fit for open boards were someone would jump to ranting over something.

I think people are over reaching if they think there is some "Player Cabal" that is directing TG on what they need to focus on next. The focus group isn't some "star chamber" - atleastI would hope not.

Bulgrim

[Seranthor]

Whoever is in the focus group is really none of your business. Are you mad that you aren't in it? Are you upset that your brillant insights haven't been recongized?

Actually, it currently is none of our business because I feel that if the membership of this little focus group were to become public we'd see exactly who they are and learn just how they got there. :) Am I mad that I'm not in this 'focus' group? not in the least, but if I were there I would be strongly against these ill-advised changes. Brilliance cannot be attached to this focus group because we (you know, the little people) have no way of determining IF this alledged focus group speaks with our voices or that of their own personal agenda.

If you notice, the devs don't post too much. They keep quiet about things, calm and only post when necessary. I would take a guess they would choose members that are not irrational, and people that tend to think things through. Maybe look for those people.

Rabidsupporters doesn't equal 'rational', but you might want to look that one up if you want to quibble on the definitions.

My opinion on the focus group. I was very suspect when the mithril change was announced, the changes made no sense at all, but this group obviously knows more then just the forum lackies do. The changes work very well with the new crafting system and all of recent additions and fixes have really started to shape the game up.

Blaming the players thatare upset about the changes without giving them a reason to want to accept them is blaming the victim and that wrong on so many levels, even you have to agree with that.

They are doing a good job, and the recent changes seem to have most of the angles covered, creating fewer problems and exploits than in the past.

Each and everyone of these is subjective and open to wide interpretation, clearly what is a problem to one person may or may not merit any attention at all in your way of thinking.


more later

[AA0]

You think the devs put only rabid supporters in their focus group? That'd be mighty stupid of the devs really. I would guess there are a few critics in there, but critics that are rational and thoughtful.



There are players that are rightfully upset, and people that are upset over changes just because of fear and lack of understanding. Currently, the second group seems to be the vast majority, which means the focus group is doing pretty good. A perfect solution is not going to be available.


Your last comment really doesn't make much sense to me. All changes are subjective, sure, they have been for the greater good of the game overall. Things are changing, they are looking up and there is a far tunnel off with some light.

A person's problem with a change is important, but if that person is just ranting/babbling then it loses its importance. Those people need to stop acting like children and saying "I hate this change", "it sucks", "I'm going to quit", and start telling the focus group/devs why they don't like it. They need to know a reason, and few have given them one as far as I can see.
A couple people made very valid comments/arguements that the brief post by smeglor did not cover, and I'm sure the devs will accept them. What they can not do is say "oh it sucks, we'll just abandon it"

[Goriax]

I get nervous if a small clique of players is being set up to speak for me with zero input from me -- and they may not even like the things I like. Look at the polarized arguments which occur on these boards. Now imagine that one side has far better access to the devs then the other side because that one side has a member on a focus group and the other side does not. That could be bad. At least for the unrepresented side. Of course, if you happen to be one of the ones with the dev's ear, it could be pretty good I suppose. It would be bad for the game since it would tend to disaffect players who's views aren't represented.

IRC is not a great answer. I can't run IRC at work (because of time, company policies, and firewalls). I doubt I"m the only one. When I'm home and have time for gaming I'm in-game so again I wouldn't be in IRC. I can't see myself ever doing much with IRC.

I'll give an example why spending too much time listening to tiny cliques of players can be bad. Dragon riding. I have heard that, due to input from IRC, the devs have decided that most dragons founddragon ridingdemeaning and thus it would be given lower priority. Yes some dragons do feel that way, but many (including myself) don't consider it demeaning at all and think it would be a blast. Unfortunately, it appears that those who liked the idea weren't in IRC at the time. If that was indeed a reason why dragon riding has a low priority I'll be pretty pissed.

Now perhaps you are the one who doesn't want dragon ridingso see nothing wrong with that. What about other questions?Basically, it's just pot luck whether the things you consider important will be represented at all. It's a sure bet that, unless you're on the focus group yourself, eventually things you think important will be relegated to the back burner because nobody on the focus group considered them important.

Whoever is in the focus group is really none of your business. Are you mad that you aren't in it? Are you upset that your brillant insights haven't been recongized?

Well, ifI wanted to be equally sarcastic, my response might be "are you in a focus group but don't want people with other opinions to get equal attention?"

I'm not so concerned exactly WHO is on the focus group as I am that it represent all player viewpoints if it's going to have a major impact on game direction.Unfortunately, I won't be satisfied it represents all player viewpoints unless I know who's on the group.

I've heard a couple people mention they were in the focus group and grumble that they weren't told anything. The ones who said that were not what I'd call typical players although they were well known players (no I won't mention names even if I could be certain I remembered correctly-- it's been awhile and was spoken in confidence). It's probably safe to say they spent a lot more time playing the game then you're average Joe Smoe gamer.

In response toanothersarcastic comment, I have no desire to be in a focus group unless it was the only way to inject some variety of outlooks into the group. Sinceit would eat into my already inadequate HZ playing time I really don't want to get into it if possible.



In summary, the thought that a very small handful of players with their own agenda can have that kind of influence on the direction of the game is scary as well as being a good way to destroy the game in the long run. A small arbitary group of players isunlikely to give a representative cross section of all players' views.Some viewpoints will be given too much emphasis and other equally popular viewpoints may get ignored altogether when decisions are made.

There's no really great answer for getting balanced player input other then extensive opinion polls (which would be difficult and expensive to set up). The boards are probably the most democratic practical way of getting ideas to the devs, if only because they're the most accessable.

The devs need to get player input whenever and wherever they can. However, they MUST MUST MUST stay aware of the limitations of the way in which they get input. Focus groups, and to a lesser extent IRC, are not a good way to get a representive sampling of player opinion. It would be a horrible mistake to make a major decision based on input from those sources.