Re: Log of Community Meeting 10 August 05

[imported_Leannae]

[Community: Staloth] Quick comment on RP and New Player: Helping trumps RPing. If your CHARACTER can not be polite or helpfull, don't RPP there, even though it is allowed. Doubt anyone here needs it said, but wanted to say it. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[Community: Staloth] *sits*
[Community: Plink] Again. Worth noting, and well said. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]


So, now we're going to be told HOW to Roleplay on a Roleplaying server? Doesn't that go against what Zideon stated earlier about RP being personal and they won't define style?

The more I read of these community meetings, the more I read about the push back of things promised in December of 2004 FOR 2005, the more I seriously rethink my choice to play Horizon's.

[imported_asteral]

So, now we're going to be told HOW to Roleplay on a Roleplaying server? Doesn't that go against what Zideon stated earlier about RP being personal and they won't define style?

Zideon has said that new-player is NOT roleplay enforced. People are coming onto the lines, getting snappy with the newbies who AREN'T roleplaying, because they are unaware of the rules reguarding the room. That is what wasimplied by the comment you quoted. AND had you read the discussion thread we had going on about the incidents prior to making a snap judgement about the comment you may have seen that.

And quite frankly if i roleplayed my lunus dragon in the newbie room, we wouldn't HAVE any newbies. She would run them all off. To be honest with you I don't see a room designed to help new players get aquainted with the game to be the most appropriate place to roleplay. But, no line in the game is prohibited from being a roleplay line and Zideon isn't going to make it that way. But we are simply asking people to either be Nice and courtious in the room, or don't join it. If you want to help new-players thats Great! If you want to rag on them and badger them for not roleplaying or if your character is just mean spirited by nature I'm not sure WHY you would be in such a room.

If you want to be helpful and roleplay at the same time, feel free. If not, new-player is not the appropriate room forthemto be in. There are plenty of other roleplay channels for them to go to.

THAT is what that comment was about. Take and twist and apply however you like. But anyone who was at that meeting or knows anything about the goings on in that channel will know that the comment you quoted was not designed to do as you say and, tell people how to roleplay.

[imported_Leannae]

I have been involved in that discussion so lower your fins.

The comment made at the meeting (paraphrased) "If you can't do it this way, DON'T do it period" was the way it was stated and read. It not twisted in anyway so before you go dialing 911 for an Waaambulance, go back and re-read the support I was giving in your New-Player Channel thread.

[Tokoz]

There comes a point, where tact and diplomacy fail, and PTSD must take over. If the shoe fits in this situation: wear it. Otherwise, you can just pretend nothing was said here. :p

/setpref tact false
/setpref diplomacy false

I think I'm seeing way to much of the Utah Syndrome here: people going around and looking for reasons to be offended by the community. This is not the only place and this is not the only person.

Brigham Young once said: "Only a fool is offended when no offense is intented and an even bigger fool is offended when offense is intended."

[Community: Plink] New Players are the most sure way to have the game continue to be here.... Please....
[Community: Plink] If you go into the New Player channel, please keep that in mind....
[Community: Plink] We've had some instances of people going in there and driving new players away and that's not a happy thought,. [img]emoticons/emotion-6.gif[/img]
[Community: Asteral] Yes and iwouldl ike to remind..that new player is NOT a roleplay enforeced room...its been said by zid himself..
[Community: Plink] Nor is it role-play prohibited. [img]emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]
[Community: Plink] Just be nice to newbies... [img]emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[Community: Asteral] No, its not. But that tends to be what sparks most of the incidents in there.
[Community: Tizana] and patient lol
[Community: C`gan] *raises hand*
[Community: Plink] Ok, Xerses and Allon... anything from the Events Team...
[Community: Staloth] *raise claw*
[Community: Plink] First, C`gan. [img]emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[Community: C`gan] One thing of note, in case you hadn't seen, there is a bug with deconstructing buildings. You are now receiving 80% only on ONE resource placed and often none of the rest of them. Zideon has asked to not deconstruct buildings until further notice. I know it's not EXACTLY a World Project thing, but still.
[Community: Plink] Worth noting. [img]emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[Community: Plink] Staloth?
[Community: Staloth] Quick comment on RP and New Player: Helping trumps RPing. If your CHARACTER can not be polite or helpfull, don't RPP there, even though it is allowed. Doubt anyone here needs it said, but wanted to say it. [img]emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
[Community: Staloth] *sits*

emphasis added

Constructive criticism is great and helps the community become stronger. But if all that's being looked for is reason to tear down all the good that is happening, call it jealousy or just plain mental illness, what have you, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate why you spend time on these boards or even why you play the game, because both are all about community.

/setpref tact true
/setpref diplomacy true

Have a nice day.

[imported_Leannae]

There comes a point, where tact and diplomacy fail, and PTSD must take over. If the shoe fits in this situation: wear it. Otherwise, you can just pretend nothing was said here. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

/setpref tact false
/setpref diplomacy false

I think I'm seeing way to much of the Utah Syndrome here: people going around and looking for reasons to be offended by the community. This is not the only place and this is not the only person.

Brigham Young once said: "Only a fool is offended when no offense is intented and an even bigger fool is offended when offense is intended."

emphasis added

Constructive criticism is great and helps the community become stronger. But if all that's being looked for is reason to tear down all the good that is happening, call it jealousy or just plain mental illness, what have you, then perhaps you need to re-evaluate why you spend time on these boards or even why you play the game, because both are all about community.

/setpref tact true
/setpref diplomacy true

Have a nice day.

Perhaps what you're really seeing is a case of different opinions. But, I fail to see where your tact and diplomacy (as you call it) makes the community stronger.As a member of the community, your comments of implied jealousy and mental illness only weakens your cause and credibility...

One who is so huge on rules should know,personally directeddigs are forbidden on these forums. [;)]

[Tokoz]

There comes a point, where tact and diplomacy fail, and PTSD must take over. If the shoe fits in this situation: wear it. Otherwise, you can just pretend nothing was said here. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

I implied nothing. I stated it.

[Peaches]

Lets get back on topic and stop the insults folks.

Thanks!

[imported_Leannae]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tokoz wrote: There comes a point, where tact and diplomacy fail, and PTSD must take over. If the shoe fits in this situation: wear it. Otherwise, you can just pretend nothing was said here. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]


I implied nothing. I stated it.

All the better for your cause eh? A member of the community disagrees with your view, so state what your opinion is about them? PTSD is hardly an excuse considering it can be treated, would you like to try another one?

Perhaps you didn't inhale. [;)]

[Senkeleron Fell]

I know people who have been driven away from the game by people roleplaying obnoxious characters. I agree 100% with the need for polite and helpful roleplaying in the new player channel, or none at all. If you can't do one of those two things, you don't help matters by being in that channel. We are trying to help these people enjoy the game and stay, not drive them off.

[Jayne]

I would agree Sen. I know if I was just learning the game and such I wouldn't be very pleased to be spoken to negatively even if it were roleplay. Actually we need to assume they are new to roleplay also and would help not to confuse them in that way. Maybe clearly state that some folks characters are negative sounding in there roleplay so the new people can at least understand that there not the cause.

As I mentioned, I personally would look at that channel as a place to not RP and to help these new people so they could properly Roleplay in the channels where it does belong.

I mean here is a great opportunety for some of you veteran players to teach the new on proper roleplay, which would lead to more folks being like yourselves. And maybe just maybe the RP issue will fix itself :)

Jayne

[imported_Leannae]

We are trying to help these people enjoy the game and stay, not drive them off.

However, telling someone on the forums to "Re-evaluate" their place in Istaria is perfectly alright and acceptable?Those sort of comments don't help to keep people either, so polite comments aren't just channel specific. [;)]

[Bori Grimbattle]

Hmmm...people that refuse to be led are cats...
people that voice an opinion are not welcome at the community meetings....
people that hold a different point of view are insane or jealous........

Sounds to me that the fostering of community spirit is moving along quite well.....

/sarcasm off


As to roleplaying I explained my views in the other thread so will not reitterate them here.

[Tokoz]

Well, that's why it not only came up in the meeting, it came up on the boards on a different thread.

I don't judge people too harshly on their RPing styles, I try to be fairly open about it. If they want to play an offensive character, like Bori talked about or Draxxis, then it does help to send a tell explaining that it's RP. I very much appreciate the tells, because my first exposure to Draxxis had me pretty upset with him, but once I understood what it was he was trying to accomplish, I was able actually get in the fun and enjoy his RPing. (See the RP section of this board, or the Player Stories area for "Metaniono."

What's happening though, is that people are coming in and in the name of RP driving New Players from the game. When you have people doing things like that, then something does need to be done about it. And if it bothers the person that's driving people away, well, then it's better to have one person leave the game, then have them continue to happily drive new players from the game. People that are doing that should be reported to TG for that very reason.

[Caillie]

I agree, new players are needed to make horizons a better game to even be able to roleplay in. Agree to disagree, and help new players, and listen to other around you, if they really don't like something don't do it. Just like my roleplay style, if someone does not want to get smished and lets me know, I won't smish them. Anyways thats just my feelings on it.

Caillie Twilight
A.K.A. Smishmachine

[imported_Leannae]

To clarify alittle...

Currently, I am very similar to a new player. I've been away from the game fora few monthsand due to finish upthe business that has kept me away. The forums are my only source of information as to what is happening on Order at the moment. I have been a customer of this game since well before it was on the shelves so it's only natural that I'd keep up on things via the forums.

The more I've read and been replied to, the more I find my desire to login fade.(when I finally can) Building much needed revenue for a game comes not only by making new players feel welcome, but also by making returning players feel welcome. When I am told by the so-call, elected official to re-evaluate my place in Istaria and my right to speak on the forums, I have to wonder. What if I were a potential investor in the game? You don't know. Who or what I am is between me and the Dev's but...if it's all about community, why do some members feel shunned?

Bluntly put, it's not the flaws in the game that would drive me away if I choose not to continue in Istaria.

[Tokoz]

Yes, I will admit I said to re-evaluate. It's something that many people are in need of: myself included. I thought for the first couple of months of doing this job, that I was supposed to keep everyone happy, and I've noticed a lot of people felt the same.

The problem is that as far as stress levels go, I have 1, 2, and 3, 8, 9, and 10. Trying to keep every single person in the game happy, kept me at a constant 8 or higher. I soon learned that most people that were against the community effort, were really saying things like, "I've been part of this community for a long time, I want recognition for my experience." Some have resorted to threats and then blame when I fail to respond to what they would call the future consequences of that I'm doing (spelled T-H-R-E-A-T), on some perceived weakness on my part. Others resort to nit-picking and constantly trying to find fault with me personally or the community in general.

The only times in the last months that I've logged into the game and not had to deal with that, was on Blight and on Genesis during my visit to TG. My pattern in the past is constant, you can find it all over the boards. I tell these people, that the community needs their experience, and they should get involved with the teams. Some do this. Others continue to do what they've always done, and there's a few that even do both.

So over and over and over again, I hear these things. If they are not attacking me personally, they are attacking what I'm trying to accomplish. (It's about half and half.) I keep spouting my battle-cry: "Get involved, and help make the changes yourself. I lead no one. They have their own independant thought, they have their own directions they want to go. I just try and co-ordinate what people want." I avoid mentioning what I see as the underlying issue for 2 reasons: 1) I could be totally wrong. 2) Most people find it rather disquieting to be told what they are really thinking.

But it has been my experience that there comes a point where approaching the problem in the more round about and courteous fashion is not working. People need to see what they are doing to me. They need to be mirrored to understand.

I try to show how I've been representing the community with TG, and I'm told that I'm arrogant. I mention some of the things that happened during my visit to TG (which David encouraged me to talk about when I told him I'd rather not btw) and I'm accused of name-dropping. I propose solutions to a concern that a player brought up and I'm acused of showing favortism and pushing my own agenda. I try to explain how I view my position as admistrative rather than leading, and people take exception to the metaphor. (You can substitute lions for cats, by the way, and the metaphor still works nicely. Lions are a type of cat.)

So I re-examined my thinking and decided that really what my job is, is to do the best I can to make the majority of the people happy and move the community forward. Does this mean that I get my way everytime? No it doesn't. The right to adminstrative appointments was not voted in, even though it was something that I felt was important. But by the time most things are on the agenda, they've already been discussed by the people in the channels, or suggested by players who have thought things through carefully. And there are many that do trust my judgement, for which I am honored. So if you read the logs, it looks like I propose something and everyone goes along with it.

People don't notice the administrative appointments, or the World Project Priorities, or even my recent attempt to step down, where my proposals have been rejected. They see someone making proposals and people following.

Well, if *he* get's his way everytime, then so should I. First, I don't. Second, that's not how a community works. Can you image what our country would be like if it took a unamious vote for every law to be made, every person to be elected? It's not going to happen.

I disagreed with votes on the board, but was proven wrong. I was hesitant to try staggering meeting times, but I tried it and it looks like it will work. I never thought we'd hold a meeting on Saturday, but it looks like we will. I wanted TG at all meetings, but most people it turns out didn't.

Nobody sees that. So I get called things like "tryant" and "dictator."

Well with my re-evaluation of what I'm doing comes the other side. People need to realize that they aren't going to always get their way, but that things will be presented as fairly as possibile, giving the maximum number of people their voice.

Last election, I watched a corrupt judge take office, one that it seemed fairly obvious, had been bought out by a developer. His juducial record was horrible with attorneys on both sides having plenty of negative things to say about him. It was heavily publicized, the ruling he made, but he still managed to keep his office. Will I continue to keep up with the things that are happening in my RL community and trying to stay involved and vote despite the fact that I felt that that judge should not have been allowed to continue in his office? Of course I will. I hate our current county mayor, who got his office by having a friend attorney file false charges on his opponant. (The charges we eventually thrown out of court, but the prosecution made sure that the court wouldn't have time to do that prior to the election.)

I don't know much about the judge, but the mayor instituted a program that took away county vehicles from hundreds of employees that were only using them for personal use and to drive to and from work, saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. He's also been part of some really good community efforts to protect the environment, while being sensitive to industry. I hate how he got in, but the truth is, I might even vote for him next time. Sometimes, it is a case of better the devil you know than the one you don't.

There are critics of the community. I encourage debate during the meetings, but often because of how things are set up, you don't see the debate. It's already been discussed in the channels. To those critics, now that I have their attention, I want to say a few things (These are all things that I do):

1) "GET INVOLVED." If you don't like something, then come on the channels and discuss it like a rational person. Stop sending me mean tells in game in private where I'm forced to try and single-handly figure out what the community wants. If you're that afraid the community won't listen to you, then maybe you should re-think your position.

2) Take the lead. Leadership positions are always opening up. Apply for them if you feel like you have the experience and knowledge to help the community. If you see the need and propose the idea, chances are I'll at least ask for you to lead what you came up with.

3) Light the lamps. Look at the community with the lights on. You'll find that many things you thought were shadows are actually good things, and you'll probably find some shadows that really need to be chased away. You won't know until you turn the lights on.

4) Be accepting. The community doesn't always go the direction you want. Live with it and use rational discussion to try and prove your point. If that fails, move on to other good things you can do. Don't get hung up on the one thing that didn't happen.

5) Carry the torch. Once you've done the first four to the best of your ability, help others see the bright and good things that this community is doing.

I know I'll take heat for this post. I know there's going to be plenty of things in here to find fault with, because I'm a human being, I have faults.

There's not much in here that I haven't said many times before. But hopefully this time at least a little bit of it sinks in where it needs to.

[Pharcellus]

Ya know, I said that I had nothing else to say to you, but I can't just let this sit any longer. Thus, my profuse apologies to those concerned for breaking my oath.

I think I'm seeing way to much of the Utah Syndrome here: people going around and looking for reasons to be offended by the community. This is not the only place and this is not the only person.

Don't need to go looking for reasons to be offended when the (self-)appointed leader (oops, sorry, "organizer") goes out of his way to offend others and publicly humiliate them in the forums and in public channels in-game.

The problem is that as far as stress levels go, I have 1, 2, and 3, 8, 9, and 10. Trying to keep every single person in the game happy, kept me at a constant 8 or higher. I soon learned that most people that were against the community effort, were really saying things like, "I've been part of this community for a long time, I want recognition for my experience." Some have resorted to threats and then blame when I fail to respond to what they would call the future consequences of that I'm doing (spelled T-H-R-E-A-T), on some perceived weakness on my part. Others resort to nit-picking and constantly trying to find fault with me personally or the community in general.

I was initially ambivalent about your "community effort". I wanted to be a part of it, but could not make the meetings at that time. I was already a part of it anyway, as I have been working on World Projects since before your subscription was more than a flash off the reflective logo on your credit card. I came to you with my concerns, initially without threats, IN PRIVATE, and all I got in return was a nasty argument. I made observations of TRUISMS, like "if you are unwilling to help accomodate peoples' needs to participate in the community, they will form their own structures, or just simply do whatever they want, OUTSIDE of yours", which you took as threats because of your medical condition (I guess [8-)]; whatever).

Then, we get to the public humiliation part, where I go and approach you one last time, and we have a long, heartfelt discussion IN PRIVATE, in which I think we come to a friendly understanding. We get to the end of the discussion, me thinking that we are ready to part friendly, understanding each others' positions, and I find a knife in my back as you take something said IN PRIVATE out of context, post it in your little "Community" (ha!) channel for you and your cronies to try and humiliate me.

Then, I get personal attacks in the forums from you and another. Obviously they get reported for abuse; one of them gets deleted, the other I follow my resolve and ignore.

All I see is someone looking to build an Empire, who is willing to do everything to protect it, no matter who has to get screwed in the process. Thanks, but I have had enough of petty little backstabbing dictators long long ago.

I already have recognition for my efforts and experience; I don't need yours. What I (and other old timers) DO need is a little respect. I think we've earned it, yet we're basically treated like we don't matter by you. Might as well just be a noob all over again as far as you are concerned.

The only times in the last months that I've logged into the game and not had to deal with that, was on Blight and on Genesis during my visit to TG. My pattern in the past is constant, you can find it all over the boards. I tell these people, that the community needs their experience, and they should get involved with the teams. Some do this. Others continue to do what they've always done, and there's a few that even do both.

That much I will agree with; your pattern is consistent. You don't "tell these people" anything. For example, at one meeting, I log in and one of my friends is telling me that you are going to make a position or two for a "forum team". You tell him that you would consider me as I live in the forums. I instruct him to tell you (as I will NEVER send you another PRIVATE message, for fear of it getting turned into another spectacle as above) that I have issues with this organization that would have to get sorted out before I would EVER take a position within a structure you are managing. I am assured by this person that you were going to talk to me about it directly first. Then, lo and behold, you announce me as being in the position in the meeting, WITHOUT my permission, WITHOUT following through as I was told you would, and you end up having to make a retraction which alarms several people, and I have to say something to calm them down. Way to go, Mr. Organizer![Y][*-)]

So over and over and over again, I hear these things. If they are not attacking me personally, they are attacking what I'm trying to accomplish. (It's about half and half.) I keep spouting my battle-cry: "Get involved, and help make the changes yourself. I lead no one. They have their own independant thought, they have their own directions they want to go. I just try and co-ordinate what people want." I avoid mentioning what I see as the underlying issue for 2 reasons: 1) I could be totally wrong. 2) Most people find it rather disquieting to be told what they are really thinking.

I think I have ample reason for "attacking" you personally, as you've demonstrated you're quite capable of attacking others and stabbing them in the back as you feel necessary. I have no reason to attack what you are trying to accomplish as I share it, but I sure as hell have reason to attack the way you are going about it because, frankly, it sucks. As a result, I go my own way. I help C`gan and the World Projects team to help the people. I put up my own stuff on the newbie consigners. I have my own plans with my guild to run events for anyone. The moment any of my efforts get attributed to your "organization", it will be like stepping on a land mine for whomever claims it.

But it has been my experience that there comes a point where approaching the problem in the more round about and courteous fashion is not working. People need to see what they are doing to me. They need to be mirrored to understand.

Heh. Well, you know what they say: What goes around comes around. Maybe you need to see (and accept) what you are doing to other people, and maybe they will have good cause to return the favor. You're the "leader", the responsibility to be open and understanding resides firstly with you.

I try to show how I've been representing the community with TG, and I'm told that I'm arrogant. I mention some of the things that happened during my visit to TG (which David encouraged me to talk about when I told him I'd rather not btw) and I'm accused of name-dropping. I propose solutions to a concern that a player brought up and I'm acused of showing favortism and pushing my own agenda. I try to explain how I view my position as admistrative rather than leading, and people take exception to the metaphor. (You can substitute lions for cats, by the way, and the metaphor still works nicely. Lions are a type of cat.)

You want to represent the community with TG? Fine. First thing you need to do is to figure out WHAT you are representing. Since you haven't made the requisite effort to communicate with us about what concerns you are representing, perhaps it could be considered quite arrogant to try representing what you don't understand. You also make the assumption that we WANT or NEED representing that we are somehow not getting, or that you can do it better than we can ourselves directly. So, yeah, that's quite arrogant of you. Personally, I wouldn't TRUST you to represent my views to Tulga any more than I TRUST you to maintain confidence from PRIVATE conversations (clue for you: I don't).

You were accused of name-dropping by the person whom you name-dropped. Thus, you should have stuck to your guns and gotten his permission before doing so. That's of course assuming you care more about the other person's feelings than pumping up your own ego.

You can sit back and claim all day long that you are performing purely perfunctory actions, but at the end of the day, what you have been doing can be found under the dictionary definition of a "leader". Thus, downplay it all you want, but realize that most of us know better.

So I re-examined my thinking and decided that really what my job is, is to do the best I can to make the majority of the people happy and move the community forward. Does this mean that I get my way everytime? No it doesn't. The right to adminstrative appointments was not voted in, even though it was something that I felt was important.

Doing the best you can to make the majority of the people happy does NOT have to include going out of your way to piss off the ones that you don't want to make happy. The other fallacy is that you can't "make" people happy; similarly, the community moves forward on its own volition.

As for the administrative appointments issue, that's an interesting revisionist history take on the subject, since every time it was brought up you publicly voiced your loathing of the subject, as if it was someone else's idea to bring it up and you were only doing it because someone else wanted you to do so. Thus, most people haven't really cared much about the subject, since you seemed to diss it so often.

People don't notice the administrative appointments, or the World Project Priorities, or even my recent attempt to step down, where my proposals have been rejected. They see someone making proposals and people following.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't really care if you step down or not. I don't really have anything invested in your organization, so it wouldn't matter to me either way. As for World Projects team priorities, I personally see them as completely tangential to your efforts. They existed long before you did, and will continue to exist long after you're just a bad memory (to me, at least). I don't bother "rejecting" your proposals, as I have taken great care to orient myself to where they don't affect me or the people I care about the most.

Nobody sees that. So I get called things like "tryant" and "dictator."

You get called things like "tyrant" and "dictator" because of the way you (mis)handle relations with people in the community. I don't know of anyone who opposes the goals, they just oppose the way they are treated when you roll over them to get there.

Well with my re-evaluation of what I'm doing comes the other side. People need to realize that they aren't going to always get their way, but that things will be presented as fairly as possibile, giving the maximum number of people their voice.

If that were only true... The pain we had to go through to just get alternate meeting time/place proposals even considered, let alone on the agenda and voted on, demonstrates the opposite.

1) "GET INVOLVED." If you don't like something, then come on the channels and discuss it like a rational person. Stop sending me mean tells in game in private where I'm forced to try and single-handly figure out what the community wants. If you're that afraid the community won't listen to you, then maybe you should re-think your position.

A) the majority of the community does not live "in the channels" (assuming you are referring to the "Community" channel and your other organizational channels).

B) Discussing an issue IN PRIVATE with the Organizer/Facilitator/Manager/Leader is a common and preferred method of accomplishing positive change, as you can't always glean much from a protracted debate over an issue. In the workplace, when you have a problem with your ability to participate, do you call a meeting with all your coworkers and your supervisor/manager to discuss it, or do you go into his/her office, close the door, and discuss it? You only got "mean tells" (quoted because they weren't "mean" so much as you felt threatened when no threat was offerred) because you dished them out.

C) I've never been afraid the Community wouldn't listen to me, because I don't CARE if they do or not. I'm not here to lead anything or anyone. These are MY issues with the situation, and I will take them up with the person most closely associated with them, if there is such a person. Failing that, it becomes clear that my concerns are not represented by the structure, so I should just return to doing things on my own.

2) Take the lead. Leadership positions are always opening up. Apply for them if you feel like you have the experience and knowledge to help the community. If you see the need and propose the idea, chances are I'll at least ask for you to lead what you came up with.

No thanks; not in this structure, anyway. I can take the lead by doing; I don't have any desire to be associated with the current "administration", specifically due to the people involved. If I propose anything, I will do it as a separate deal; people can assist or not as they choose. I will NOT seek your "approval" to do it.

3) Light the lamps. Look at the community with the lights on. You'll find that many things you thought were shadows are actually good things, and you'll probably find some shadows that really need to be chased away. You won't know until you turn the lights on.

I don't just light the lamps, I run around with a searchlight. I call shadows as I see them. Maybe they aren't shadows, but that usually only means they are real patches of darkness.

4) Be accepting. The community doesn't always go the direction you want. Live with it and use rational discussion to try and prove your point. If that fails, move on to other good things you can do. Don't get hung up on the one thing that didn't happen.

I don't expect the "community" to go the "direction I want". I'm not leading it. If the "community" is going my way, I'll push the wagon further down the road (and I will be damned if I let someone riding on the wagon I am pushing take credit for my efforts in the process). If it doesn't, I'll go do my own thing. I don't need the "community" to do anything for me. However, if the "community" needs me to do something for it, it better learn to ask nicely and properly and respect my sensibilities with proper representation of my views.

5) Carry the torch. Once you've done the first four to the best of your ability, help others see the bright and good things that this community is doing.

I've carried the torch. I've been there. I think that a lot of things the community is doing are and have been great. The current "management" is my only serious concern.

I know I'll take heat for this post. I know there's going to be plenty of things in here to find fault with, because I'm a human being, I have faults.

Aye, if you can't take the heat, you shouldn't be in the furnace.

There's not much in here that I haven't said many times before. But hopefully this time at least a little bit of it sinks in where it needs to.

Aye, hopefully some of what I have been saying all along starts to light up some shadows for you as well. [;)]

[Warsong]

Tokoz

Wereto begin in my opinion Horizons is a game full of leaders some good some bad. Also in my opinion i like to think of myself as a good one. So as a good leader i want to give you my 2 cents take it or leave it. Your heart is in the right place with the community in mind. But you are letting a game stress you out think of it this way is a game for 12.95 per month worth a heart attack and a medical bill of thousands more. Do what you feel is right using mans law. You know the ones dont hurt me or ill hurt you. Dont steal i wont steal. And if you do that you will know you have done the best job you could do. No matter who you are people will always talk about what you do. Two ways to go thru this life and the next. Stand out or blend in if you want to stand out you have to deal with the crap. If you want to blend in then you need to rethink your path. I'm not one for being a part of the Community at large I help those I want when I want without care of what someone else thinks. Until a Dev tells me im doing something wrong what do i care if Person A or Person B thinks of me. They pay the same Sub I do. If you are trying to make everyone happy then know that its not possible and never will be. Because one mans Junk is another mans Treasure and works the opposite way to.

You might not even care what I have just said but then again I dont care if you care so it makes us even. However some fools have a moment of wisdom everyonce in a while. Just like my Broken watch tells the right time twice a day. Good luck on your future events and I hope you find a little peace.

[Warsong]

Maltavorn and Tokoz

Excuse my reply didnt realize this was a rooted problem. I have no business giving my 2cents not knowing any part of the whole story. Just thought Tokoz could use a little advice on dealing with problems.

Good Day to you both

[Tokoz]

*sigh.

So much said.

So little read.

You do call a meeting if the issue involves more than yourself. By definition, all community issues require community participation.

Should I post the log? Should all see the threats that you made, the accussations. The statement made that was moved to the community channel was out of context, but in or out, it was a threat. All could see that. I made you take a community issue to the community, and showed you once and for all that you can not intimidate me the way you do others on these boards.

And if that makes me a tyrant and a dictator, then that makes you a terrorist.

Good luck in all you do, may you find friends that you can intimidate into doing what you want and not hurt. There are people like that. I am not one.